8th Ed. The Best Monstrous Infantry unit in all of Warhammer

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ready for round 3!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

You are not wrong.

Yeah... That's what I thought... Hence the "ish".

For me specifically, I deeply LOVE my list building and keep this fully confidential as much as I can (and as long as I can with magic items), so the idea of clearing with my enemy which units I'm using is distasteful to me.

(@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl that all said, I'm still keeping my eyes peeled for a copy of both the Monstrous Arcanum and Storm of Magic books as I want to have them. Ideally as PDF's)

Of course, once you add in their character support to form the infamous Gutstar, they become one of the most potent and feared units in all of warhammer.

This is exactly what I'm talking about earlier about stacking the odds in your favor.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

For me specifically, I deeply LOVE my list building and keep this fully confidential as much as I can (and as long as I can with magic items), so the idea of clearing with my enemy which units I'm using is distasteful to me.

Fair enough. I'm pretty flexible on this matter. My friend and I used to play 40k with completely open lists, sometimes exchanged well ahead of time.

It's an interesting inclusion in the tourney. I'm quite curious as to how they will fare compared to the standard "no permission needed" units. Of course, at the very end of the tournament, we could always create a second chart where we remove all the additional units and see how the results shift.

This is exactly what I'm talking about earlier about stacking the odds in your favor.

Unless a Purple Sun hits it!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Fair enough. I'm pretty flexible on this matter. My friend and I used to play 40k with completely open lists, sometimes exchanged well ahead of time.

Each to his own. I prefer the element of trying to out-think your opponent in tactics and strategy. My favourite bits are list building and then (although pretty nerve wracking) deployment.

I'd actually probably try this method you're talking about at some point. I like introducing some realism into my battles and there will definitely be times in war where you know exactly what's coming at you (on both sides) and then it comes down to that ever-so-important deployment and how you play the list.

Of course, in 40K the movement phase is a LOT more meaningful as you have no wheeling, loose formations, etc. so you can definitely lay out your deployment one way and then do a double-bluff through rapid movements.

It's an interesting inclusion in the tourney. I'm quite curious as to how they will fare compared to the standard "no permission needed" units. Of course, at the very end of the tournament, we could always create a second chart where we remove all the additional units and see how the results shift.

If his royal highness @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl would be willing, I'd be interested in that. I found the Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum PDFs so I'm going to have a read and get familiar with the subjects.

Unless a Purple Sun hits it!

That spell is the bane of several armies. One of the most potent against Lizardmen, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves and (to some degree) Orcs & Goblins.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Each to his own. I prefer the element of trying to out-think your opponent in tactics and strategy. My favourite bits are list building and then (although pretty nerve wracking) deployment.

I play 8th edition as per the rulebook, closed lists. The open list setup was something my friend and I did way back in the day for 40k. A good thing too, because he was prone to making list-building errors, so I'd point them out and he would fix them before our games. In some sense the game was, if anything, more strategic. There was no winning through "surprises". Each person knew the tools of the other, so the game came down to utilizing your tools to neutralize that of your enemy.

In the end though, the difference is pretty small. It's keeping magic items hidden versus not. Everything else you can see on the board.

I found the Storm of Magic and Monstrous Arcanum PDFs so I'm going to have a read and get familiar with the subjects.

Take a look at the enhanced K'daai Destroyer in the Monstrous Arcanum book. Scary!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Ready for round 3!

And said round is about to begin!

First off, pitching two underdogs against each other, it's the Ogre Bulls fighting the Bile Trolls! Which of these two units can redeem itself for its miserable performance in the tournament thus far?

Key Rules in Play:
Ogre Bulls: Additional Hand Weapons
Bile Trolls: Mark of Nurgle, Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Infected Vomit



And the Ogre Bulls prove that sometimes quantity is a quality all in its own! Though the Bile Trolls actually inflicted a greater number of Wounds on the Ogres, the Bulls' stonking attack output allowing them to kill a Bile Troll before they could even strike, their standard contributing to Combat Resolution and greater numbers allowing them to still have at least 3 models in their second rank after casualties all helped to swing the combat around in their favour, and the Bile Trolls' awful Leadership kicked in once again to make sure they ended up with another Massive Loss.



It's safe to say things aren't looking too good for the Bile Trolls, who are the first unit to reach a new low of -6 on the scoreboard, while the Bulls' redemption raises them above the Kroxigors and Ushabti and places them just below their Irongut brothers and the Minotaurs (though none of these units have yet fought this round, so we can't yet give the Bulls too much applause).

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

And said round is about to begin!

First off, pitching two underdogs against each other, it's the Ogre Bulls fighting the Bile Trolls! Which of these two units can redeem itself for its miserable performance in the tournament thus far?

Key Rules in Play:
Ogre Bulls: Additional Hand Weapons
Bile Trolls: Mark of Nurgle, Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Infected Vomit

View attachment 111893

And the Ogre Bulls prove that sometimes quantity is a quality all in its own! Though the Bile Trolls actually inflicted a greater number of Wounds on the Ogres, the Bulls' stonking attack output allowing them to kill a Bile Troll before they could even strike, their standard contributing to Combat Resolution and greater numbers allowing them to still have at least 3 models in their second rank after casualties all helped to swing the combat around in their favour, and the Bile Trolls' awful Leadership kicked in once again to make sure they ended up with another Massive Loss.

View attachment 111895

It's safe to say things aren't looking too good for the Bile Trolls, who are the first unit to reach a new low of -6 on the scoreboard, while the Bulls' redemption raises them above the Kroxigors and Ushabti and places them just below their Irongut brothers and the Minotaurs (though none of these units have yet fought this round, so we can't yet give the Bulls too much applause).

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

I'm very happy for the Bulls, but like you say they have a long way to go and unfortunately they will remain at the bottom without being able to use the Ogre Charge ability to give them a combat edge.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And the Ogre Bulls prove that sometimes quantity is a quality all in its own! Though the Bile Trolls actually inflicted a greater number of Wounds on the Ogres, the Bulls' stonking attack output allowing them to kill a Bile Troll before they could even strike, their standard contributing to Combat Resolution and greater numbers allowing them to still have at least 3 models in their second rank after casualties all helped to swing the combat around in their favour, and the Bile Trolls' awful Leadership kicked in once again to make sure they ended up with another Massive Loss.

The Bile Trolls can up their damage to 5.33 wounds caused by going 4 wide and using their Infected Vomit attack. That said, they still (barely) lose by 1 and the result remains the same.

The Bile Trolls seem pretty pathetic when compared to their vanilla brethren, the mighty Chaos Trolls. They simply cost way too much.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

As I won't be present for much time online tomorrow due to an exam, and I'm feeling generous, I've decided to run tomorrow's match today, as a bonus!

I thought I'd have the other two underdogs square up next - the Chaos Ogres vs the Fenbeasts!

Key Rules in Play:
Chaos Ogres: Mark of Khorne (Frenzy), Additional Hand Weapons
Fenbeasts: Always Strikes Last, Frenzy (through Born of Bloodmarsh), Regeneration (4+), Unbreakable, Unstable



And it's a clear win for the Fenbeasts, with their Toughness 5 and 4+ Regeneration saves blunting the Khornate Ogres' assault, with them failing to kill a single Fenbeast. In return the sludge-creatures beat a Chaos Ogre to death and denied them their rank bonus, once again with average Leadership sending them packing. I must admit I enjoyed seeing the Fenbeasts get a good match in after watching them get absolutely destroyed by the Fireborn and the Crypt Horrors. To see them dispatch the Chaos Ogres so easily was pretty satisfying. Let's update the scoreboard once again:


The Chaos Ogres now join the Bile Trolls at a paltry -6 (which probably makes sense given they are more expensive Ogre ripoffs in the same way Bile Trolls are more expensive Troll ripoffs), while the Fenbeasts move up to join the Ogre Bulls at -2.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

As I won't be present for much time online tomorrow due to an exam, and I'm feeling generous, I've decided to run tomorrow's match today, as a bonus!

I thought I'd have the other two underdogs square up next - the Chaos Ogres vs the Fenbeasts!

Key Rules in Play:
Chaos Ogres: Mark of Khorne (Frenzy), Additional Hand Weapons
Fenbeasts: Always Strikes Last, Frenzy (through Born of Bloodmarsh), Regeneration (4+), Unbreakable, Unstable

View attachment 111900

And it's a clear win for the Fenbeasts, with their Toughness 5 and 4+ Regeneration saves blunting the Khornate Ogres' assault, with them failing to kill a single Fenbeast. In return the sludge-creatures beat a Chaos Ogre to death and denied them their rank bonus, once again with average Leadership sending them packing. I must admit I enjoyed seeing the Fenbeasts get a good match in after watching them get absolutely destroyed by the Fireborn and the Crypt Horrors. To see them dispatch the Chaos Ogres so easily was pretty satisfying. Let's update the scoreboard once again:
View attachment 111901

The Chaos Ogres now join the Bile Trolls at a paltry -6 (which probably makes sense given they are more expensive Ogre ripoffs in the same way Bile Trolls are more expensive Troll ripoffs), while the Fenbeasts move up to join the Ogre Bulls at -2.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

Interesting.

How does the scoreboard look currently?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Interesting.

How does the scoreboard look currently?

Have a butcher’s at the inaugural post of the thread, I continually update the scoreboard there after every fight, as well as posting it at the end of every round.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Right, after having completed and passed that exam yesterday, it's high time for another fight!

Today, two fan-favourites slug it out in a clash of jungle and desert, it's the Kroxigors vs the Ushabti!

Key Rules in Play:
Kroxigors: Great Weapons, Cold-blooded, Predatory Fighter, Scaly Skin (4+)
Ushabti: Great Weapons, 5+ Armour Save, Unbreakable, Unstable

Spoiler: A note on Cold-Blooded

From the beginning of the tournament I resolved that Cold-Blooded would allow the Kroxigors to potentially treat values I estimated to be as low as 5 with the same probability as a unit without Cold-Blooded testing on an average Leadership of 7. Therefore, as per @NIGHTBRINGER's alteration to the rules in his Best Close Combat Unit Contest regarding rules that increase the chances of a unit staying in combat but don't guarantee it, like Stubborn and, in this case, Cold-Blooded, while the Kroxigors stay after their first defeat in this melee, I made the assumption that such a low value of 5 would be so difficult to attain, even with 3 dice and choosing the two lowest, in the second round that the surviving Kroxigor breaks. I believe this is a reasonable assumption given that even if it had stayed to fight a third round, it would be up against two Ushabti that would likely kill it in that round and earn a Victory anyway.

And it's a Victory for the Ushabti! Perhaps a surprise win given how they've been estimated by many to be one of the losers in this contest, but a win nonetheless! With both units striking last and having no armour saves after penalties, it came round to the Ushabti's superior Weapon Skill allowing them to hit the Krox that bit harder and resist their attacks that much more which, combined with their standard, ensured that not even the Predatory Fighter attacks of the crocodilian Lizardmen could turn the tide. Still, both sides having to strike last meant the Kroxigors still bashed lumps out of the stone statues and reduced their win to just a Victory.



That pushes the Ushabti up to join the other 'redeemed' units, the Ogre Bulls and Fenbeasts, while the Kroxigors fall to -4 points, into the bottom three but still above the combat rejects that are the Chaos Ogres and Bile Trolls.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Right, after having completed and passed that exam yesterday, it's high time for another fight!

Today, two fan-favourites slug it out in a clash of jungle and desert, it's the Kroxigors vs the Ushabti!

Key Rules in Play:
Kroxigors: Great Weapons, Cold-blooded, Predatory Fighter, Scaly Skin (4+)
Ushabti: Great Weapons, 5+ Armour Save, Unbreakable, Unstable

View attachment 112017

Spoiler: A note on Cold-Blooded

From the beginning of the tournament I resolved that Cold-Blooded would allow the Kroxigors to potentially treat values I estimated to be as low as 5 with the same probability as a unit without Cold-Blooded testing on an average Leadership of 7. Therefore, as per @NIGHTBRINGER's alteration to the rules in his Best Close Combat Unit Contest regarding rules that increase the chances of a unit staying in combat but don't guarantee it, like Stubborn and, in this case, Cold-Blooded, while the Kroxigors stay after their first defeat in this melee, I made the assumption that such a low value of 5 would be so difficult to attain, even with 3 dice and choosing the two lowest, in the second round that the surviving Kroxigor breaks. I believe this is a reasonable assumption given that even if it had stayed to fight a third round, it would be up against two Ushabti that would likely kill it in that round and earn a Victory anyway.

And it's a Victory for the Ushabti! Perhaps a surprise win given how they've been estimated by many to be one of the losers in this contest, but a win nonetheless! With both units striking last and having no armour saves after penalties, it came round to the Ushabti's superior Weapon Skill allowing them to hit the Krox that bit harder and resist their attacks that much more which, combined with their standard, ensured that not even the Predatory Fighter attacks of the crocodilian Lizardmen could turn the tide. Still, both sides having to strike last meant the Kroxigors still bashed lumps out of the stone statues and reduced their win to just a Victory.

View attachment 112018

That pushes the Ushabti up to join the other 'redeemed' units, the Ogre Bulls and Fenbeasts, while the Kroxigors fall to -4 points, into the bottom three but still above the combat rejects that are the Chaos Ogres and Bile Trolls.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

A battle between two of my favourite units. The Ushabti's S6 was the perfect strength in this matchup (wounding on 2's and beating the Kroxigor's 4+ armour save) while the Kroxigor's S7 was overkill, and ultimately "wasted points". S7 is perfectly attuned to beat T5 and a 3+ armour save.

 

[Imrahil]

Great work on this @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl fun to read and follow along.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Time for another round!

Continuing the battle of the underdogs, it's the Ironguts vs the Minotaurs!

Key Rules in Play
Minotaurs: Additional Hand Weapons, Bloodgreed
Ironguts: Great Weapons, Standard of Discipline (+1 Leadership)



It's a win for the Minotaurs! As with the Ushabti it largely came down to Initiative order - the Minotaurs were able to strike first and butcher two Ogres before they could even strike, so that while the Ironguts reaped almost as much of a tally, the Minotaurs were still able to win the combat. Normally the Ironguts would have fled, but their Standard of Discipline saved their bacon and kept them in the fight, which if it hadn't started the Minotaurs' Bloodgreed train, allowing them to recover some attacks lost by slain models. This meant the bullish Beastmen were able to hit almost as hard in the second round, reducing the Ironguts to a more manageable size and winning the combat by an amount that not even their Magic Banner was able to protect the Ogres from. The Minotaurs' superior Weapon Skill also helped to maximise the number of hits they were able to inflict upon the Ogres and minimise the number of hits they received in return. However, the Ironguts still fought well and their Great Weapons were still able to reduce the Minotaurs to only a couple of models, ensuring the bull-men walk away with just a Victory.

Spoiler: The most important finding

Minobus > Gutstar (In a straight fight at least - of course in a pitched battle a Minobus would have at least a single Doombull or Gorebull in it, which would give the unit Frenzy and make it vulnerable to being baited, but you still can't ignore that when it comes to the crunch, You Can't Beat a Bit of Bully )

This means the Minotaurs rise to join the Rat Ogres, Yhetees, Skin Wolves and Fimir on 0, while the Ironguts drop to join their Bull brethren, the Fenbeasts and the Ushabti on -2.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Imrahil]

(@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl that all said, I'm still keeping my eyes peeled for a copy of both the Monstrous Arcanum and Storm of Magic books as I want to have them. Ideally as PDF's)

Due to your question I started a search to later on read that you have got them already, so now I have them too
If, in a far, far, far time, I have time to spare I'll have something to read.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

As it's unlikely I'll have much time for this next week, I'll treat you all to two (at least) rounds of bloody combat between Monstrous Infantry units!

First up, more servants and creations of Chaos clash - the Skin Wolves take on the Fimir!

Key rules in play:
Skin Wolves: Always Strikes First (Mark of Slaanesh), Regeneration (5+), Frenzy
Fimir Warriors: Scaly Skin (6+), Heavy Armour, Always Strikes Last (Great Weapons), Cold Blooded, From the Mists, Tail Attack (S5)

As always with the Fimir, this fight will first be resolved with 'From the Mists' in play:


And the brief moment of glory for the Fimir after their triumph against the Chaos Ogres comes to an end at the claws of the Slaaneshi Skin Wolves, even with the mists hampering their ability to hit the amphibian warriors. Being able to kill a Fimir straight off the bat blunted the swamp creatures' attack output in response, forcing the unit to an initial draw and then toward a series of combats that gradually get worse for the Fimir, their far inferior numbers proving their nemesis, until they finally panic and run with just a single model left alive, their Cold-Blooded resolve failing them after two rounds of being beaten. As with the Chaos Trolls, the Skin Wolves' Regeneration made a significant contribution and stopped the Fimir from being able to kill enough of them to even out the odds, ensuring the wolf pack slinks away with another Massive Victory in their clutches.



It's not over yet though, as I thought I'd resolve the other two units that are still sitting on zero since Round 2 next, the Yhetees and the Rat Ogres...

Key rules in play:
Yhetees: Aura of Frost
Rat Ogres: Frenzy, Beast Pack



And in contrast to the Skin Wolves vs Fimir fight, one round of combat was all that was needed to determine the superior combatants here - the Yhetees' Aura of Frost rule and equal Initiative meant while both sides killed two models, the Rat Ogres inflicted one less wound than the Ushabti, despite putting out more attacks, which was enough to lose them the combat and send them scurrying away as Skaven do best.



Those fights see the Fimir and Rat Ogres promptly expelled from their positions in the middle of the pack to join the burgeoning '-2 points club' alongside the Ironguts, Ogre Bulls, Fenbeasts and Ushabti, while the Skin Wolves and Yhetees leapfrog the Tree Kin to sit snugly between them and the River Trolls on +2.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

As it's unlikely I'll have much time for this next week, I'll treat you all to two (at least) rounds of bloody combat between Monstrous Infantry units!

First up, more servants and creations of Chaos clash - the Skin Wolves take on the Fimir!

Key rules in play:
Skin Wolves: Always Strikes First (Mark of Slaanesh), Regeneration (5+), Frenzy
Fimir Warriors: Scaly Skin (6+), Heavy Armour, Always Strikes Last (Great Weapons), Cold Blooded, From the Mists, Tail Attack (S5)

As always with the Fimir, this fight will first be resolved with 'From the Mists' in play:
View attachment 112178

And the brief moment of glory for the Fimir after their triumph against the Chaos Ogres comes to an end at the claws of the Slaaneshi Skin Wolves, even with the mists hampering their ability to hit the amphibian warriors. Being able to kill a Fimir straight off the bat blunted the swamp creatures' attack output in response, forcing the unit to an initial draw and then toward a series of combats that gradually get worse for the Fimir, their far inferior numbers proving their nemesis, until they are wiped out entirely. As with the Chaos Trolls, the Skin Wolves' Regeneration made a significant contribution and stopped the Fimir from being able to kill enough of them to even out the odds, ensuring the wolf pack slinks away with another Massive Victory in their clutches.

View attachment 112179

It's not over yet though, as I thought I'd resolve the other two units that are still sitting on zero since Round 2 next, the Yhetees and the Rat Ogres...

Key rules in play:
Yhetees: Aura of Frost
Rat Ogres: Frenzy, Beast Pack

View attachment 112180

And in contrast to the Skin Wolves vs Fimir fight, one round of combat was all that was needed to determine the superior combatants here - the Yhetees' Aura of Frost rule and equal Initiative meant while both sides killed two models, the Rat Ogres inflicted one less wound than the Ushabti, despite putting out more attacks, which was enough to lose them the combat and send them scurrying away as Skaven do best.

View attachment 112181

Those fights see the Fimir and Rat Ogres promptly expelled from their positions in the middle of the pack to join the burgeoning '-2 points club' alongside the Ironguts, Ogre Bulls, Fenbeasts and Ushabti, while the Skin Wolves and Yhetees leapfrog the Tree Kin to sit snugly between them and the River Trolls on +2.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

Well definitely a surprise, I was expecting that to be a Rat Ogre massacre. I may have been too harsh on the Yhetees.

They're definitely not contenders for the top (I'm wincing already about their upcoming Fireborn fight) but they'll probably be lower-middle end result.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Well definitely a surprise, I was expecting that to be a Rat Ogre massacre. I may have been too harsh on the Yhetees.

They're definitely not contenders for the top (I'm wincing already about their upcoming Fireborn fight) but they'll probably be lower-middle end result.

I didn't think it would be a massacre, but I also thought the Rat Ogres would win. However, the fact that the Yhetees were able to bring the same number of models to the fight (not counting the Packmasters for the Rat Ogres) and force their opponents to suffer a -1 penalty to their to Hit rolls means they've got a few tricks up their sleeve. True, they will in all odds lose to the Fireborn, but to be honest I think most units will lose to the Fireborn (the Rat Ogres already have). I certainly think the Fireborn are likely to take the top spot, like their Destroyer big brother in the Best Close Combat Unit Contest. I would say the Yhetees may well reach the upper middle-end. I'm still inclined to think the Rat Ogres will also reach the upper middle-end, because they have similar numbers as the Yhetees and trade the -1 to Hit rolls for Frenzy and a few extra attacks from the Packmasters when they can support.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

and force their opponents to suffer a -1 penalty to their to Hit rolls means they've got a few tricks up their sleeve.

They give -1 WS, not -1 to hit. Does that affect the combat?

True, they will in all odds lose to the Fireborn, but to be honest I think most units will lose to the Fireborn (the Rat Ogres already have). I certainly think the Fireborn are likely to take the top spot, like their Destroyer big brother in the Best Close Combat Unit Contest.

I think it will be a contest with the Maneaters and Fireborn, but yes, the Fireborn will definitely give a good account for themselves as also one of the few units to have a Ward Save.

I would say the Yhetees may well reach the upper middle-end. I'm still inclined to think the Rat Ogres will also reach the upper middle-end, because they have similar numbers as the Yhetees and trade the -1 to Hit rolls for Frenzy and a few extra attacks from the Packmasters when they can support.

I'm still predicting lower middle for Yhetees, but I think that the Rat Ogres will do as you say due to the Frenzy rule and Packmasters.