8th Ed. The Best Monstrous Infantry unit in all of Warhammer

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

What's that? You wanted more? Well, I have another one up and ready!

@Killer Angel this time both units have great weapons, so neither has the ASL disadvantage. A roving band of Ironguts are pillaging an ancient temple, when out of some jungle pools burst a regiment of Kroxigors aiming to stop the desecration of the Old Ones' shrine. There's only one thing left to do... FIIIIIIIIGHT!

Key rules in play:
Kroxigors: Great Weapons, Cold-blooded, Predatory Fighter, Scaly Skin (4+)
Ironguts: Great Weapons, Standard of Discipline (+1 Leadership)


A close win for the Ogres here! The Ironguts' cheaper points cost helped them out greatly here, as they were able to fit in an extra model to tip the balance in the numbers game - even if they hadn't had their Magic Standard they would have won this fight. However, this bout was won by a pretty close margin, with only a single healthy Ogre and one on a single wound remaining left standing - these could easily be swamped by a Saurus unit and butchered in the following turn in an actual game. Nevertheless, a victory is still a victory, no matter how small.

Another update to the scoreboard is required:


Things get a bit more entertaining when one or more of the combatants have high Leadership, Unbreakable and/or some special rule that helps them stay in the fight, I wonder how long we can keep this up?

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Here we are, the first battle in around half a year!

This time around, some Minotaurs, dragging their hooves in the desert and having eaten nothing but Skeletons for the past few weeks, are confronted by a legion of Ushabti, striding down from the dunes with gleaming greatblades in hand.

Key rules in play:
Minotaurs: Additional hand weapons, Bloodgreed
Ushabti: Always Strikes Last (Great Weapons), 5+ Armour Save, Unbreakable, Unstable
View attachment 96826

Of course, stone isn't any more nutritious than bone, but Minotaurs are always game for trying new foods! The Ushabti being forced to strike last was key here, as they lost two models before they could even act, so that not even their great weapons could help them deal enough wounds in return. This then started the Minotaurs' Bloodgreed train so that the attacks they lost through casualties were replaced with extra ones given to the surviving models. This constant stream of attacks, plus the Ushabti losing wounds through Unstable, meant there was no hope for the Animated Constructs once the ball started rolling. However, to give them credit, their Great Weapons still cut down enough of the Minotaurs to deny them a Massive Victory, aided by the Minotaurs' high points' cost forcing them to bring only five models to the fight.

Let's update the scoreboard:
View attachment 96827

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

Would the Minotaurs have struck first if the Ushabti had AHW?

Otherwise, the clincher here is whoever goes second dies. Good example of the pros and cons of the GW option.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Would the Minotaurs have struck first if the Ushabti had AHW?

They'd strike at the same time, as both have Initative 3. The Ushabti would outnumber the Minotaurs, but the Minotaurs have Strength 5. Let's give that a run in fact:


The Minotaurs still win, but the Ushabti manage to inflict a few more wounds in the second round due to preserving their extra attacks in the front rank, allowing them to kill 2 Minotaurs at once in that round and reduce their attacks in the third round even with Bloodgreed. In the final round they also manage to get a round of attacks off before the Minotaurs wipe them out, meaning the Minotaurs end up having one less model at the end. Nevertheless, it's still a victory for them.

 

[Killer Angel]

Thoughts?

I cannot be happy when kroxigors die.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

ASL is, in my opinion, too often a game changer.
That's one of the reasons why i rarely equip units with great weapons, unless i can give them a ward save or some protection.

GWs are wasted on units without significant armour.

What's that? You wanted more? Well, I have another one up and ready!

@Killer Angel this time both units have great weapons, so neither has the ASL disadvantage. A roving band of Ironguts are pillaging an ancient temple, when out of some jungle pools burst a regiment of Kroxigors aiming to stop the desecration of the Old Ones' shrine. There's only one thing left to do... FIIIIIIIIGHT!

Key rules in play:
Kroxigors: Great Weapons, Cold-blooded, Predatory Fighter, Scaly Skin (4+)
Ironguts: Great Weapons, Standard of Discipline (+1 Leadership)
View attachment 96828

A close win for the Ogres here! The Ironguts' cheaper points cost helped them out greatly here, as they were able to fit in an extra model to tip the balance in the numbers game - even if they hadn't had their Magic Standard they would have won this fight. However, this bout was won by a pretty close margin, with only a single healthy Ogre and one on a single wound remaining left standing - these could easily be swamped by a Saurus unit and butchered in the following turn in an actual game. Nevertheless, a victory is still a victory, no matter how small.

Another update to the scoreboard is required:
View attachment 96829

Things get a bit more entertaining when one or more of the combatants have high Leadership, Unbreakable and/or some special rule that helps them stay in the fight, I wonder how long we can keep this up?

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

Kroxigors have to pay a points premium for their S7 attacks, which end up being no better than the Ironguts S6. The Ironguts had the perfect strength to wound the Kroxigors on 2's and fully negate their armour. The Kroxigors' strength 7 was overkill against T4 and heavy armour... hence wasted points... hence a model disadvantage... hence losing the contest.

 

[Imrahil]

So, after a half year of no battle analysis you managed to kill both Ushabtis and Kroxigors one after the other.
Not good, not good.

GWs are wasted on units without significant armour.

What are the benefits of the Great Weapon? higher Strength? +n to hit? something else..
Right now I can't see any reason why you would ever pick a GW.

Help out the noob of the 8th

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Killer Angel]

What are the benefits of the Great Weapon? higher Strength? +n to hit? something else..
Right now I can't see any reason why you would ever pick a GW.

Help out the noob of the 8th

GW gives +2 strenght. That alone pushes a 4+ save to a 6+.
However, to afford ASL, you need good protection (or abysmal initiative to start with)

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

GW gives +2 strenght. That alone pushes a 4+ save to a 6+.
However, to afford ASL, you need good protection (or abysmal initiative to start with)

Or, in the case of Elves, Always Strikes First to counter Always Strikes Last, and a good base Initiative to make sure you still strike before most foes

Anyway, let's have another fight! This time around, a load of Ogre Bulls pillaging the frozen north are ambushed by horrifying Skin Wolves...

Key rules in play:
Skin Wolves: Mark of Slaanesh (Always Strikes First), Regeneration (5+), Frenzy
Ogre Bulls: Additional Hand Weapons


Aaand our streak of long fights comes to a close, with the Skin Wolves' higher Initiative and Always Strikes First knocking the Ogres for six, killing two and badly mauling a third, and their Regeneration helping weather the storm of returning blows from the Bull unit. The Ogres' greater numbers keeps them in the fight for an extra round thanks to Steadfast, but a similarly brutal second round takes out the rest of their back rank, sending them packing despite standard and redeeming the Skin Wolves for their silly loss against the Crypt Horrors.

Let's add this to the scoreboard:


Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Or, in the case of Elves, Always Strikes First to counter Always Strikes Last, and a good base Initiative to make sure you still strike before most foes

Anyway, let's have another fight! This time around, a load of Ogre Bulls pillaging the frozen north are ambushed by horrifying Skin Wolves...

Key rules in play:
Skin Wolves: Mark of Slaanesh (Always Strikes First), Regeneration (5+), Frenzy
Ogre Bulls: Additional Hand Weapons
View attachment 96887

Aaand our streak of long fights comes to a close, with the Skin Wolves' higher Initiative and Always Strikes First knocking the Ogres for six, killing enough of them to stop them claiming a Combat Resolution bonus, and their Regeneration helping weather the storm of returning blows from the Bull unit, sending them packing and redeeming the Skin Wolves for their silly loss against the Crypt Horrors.

Let's add this to the scoreboard:
View attachment 96888

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

Where are the Skin Wolves from again? They're not actually 8th Edition right?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Where are the Skin Wolves from again? They're not actually 8th Edition right?

I describe the source of the more "unusual" entries here:

The Skin Wolves (and Fimir Warriors) are from another Forge World book called Monstrous Arcanum. You can also find the same Bile Trolls here as you did in Tamurkhan. Monstrous Arcanum is also the home to things like the Dread Saurian, Khemric Titan and an even more deadly version of the K'daai Destroyer (which now has access to some really OP upgrades).

Monstrous Arcanum was released by Forge World during 8th edition and designed for play in 8th edition.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Where are the Skin Wolves from again? They're not actually 8th Edition right?

I describe the source of the more "unusual" entries here:
The Skin Wolves (and Fimir Warriors) are from another Forge World book called Monstrous Arcanum. You can also find the same Bile Trolls here as you did in Tamurkhan. Monstrous Arcanum is also the home to things like the Dread Saurian, Khemric Titan and an even more deadly version of the K'daai Destroyer (which now has access to some really OP upgrades). Monstrous Arcanum was released by Forge World during 8th edition and designed for play in 8th edition.

This. Though the Skin Wolves aren’t usable in normal games, they can be taken by any army in a Storm of Magic game that allows the Monstrous Arcanum rules, which is why I have included them in this tournament. The Fimir Warriors, Bile Trolls and K’daai Fireborn can be found there too, and the Fenbeasts are from Storm of Magic. I wanted to compare every single official Monstrous Infantry unit usable in the game, whether from specific army books or not.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Monstrous Arcanum was released by Forge World during 8th edition and designed for play in 8th edition.

I'll find a copy of this. It's missing from my 8th edition paraphernalia.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I'll find a copy of this. It's missing from my 8th edition paraphernalia.

Hope your wallet will survive the ridiculous EBay prices offered for copies of them

 

[Killer Angel]

Hope your wallet will survive the ridiculous EBay prices offered for copies of them

@Lizards of Renown owns a large amount of pdf material

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

@Lizards of Renown owns a large amount of pdf material

As do I, that's how I found a copy of it. I assumed he was going to get a physical copy, but PDFs are great, in large part because they're free

 

[Charlemagne]

I'll find a copy of this. It's missing from my 8th edition paraphernalia.

I don’t know if you’re in the states but I’ve seen copies pop up at half price books for about $30 from time to time.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

After an inexcusably long period of absence, I felt the time was right to have another session of Monstrous Infantry beating the crap out of each other.

Today, some Maneaters on their travels encounter some stinking Bile Trolls emerging from the swamp dead ahead of them...

Key Rules in play:
Maneaters: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn (both from Been There, Done That), Additional Hand Weapons, War Banner (+1 Combat Res)
Bile Trolls: Mark of Nurgle, Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Infected Vomit


And once again we have a short but decisive fight, which will please our resident Ogre Tyrants @Lizards of Renown and @Charlemagne immensely! Funnily enough the combatants in this bout were roughly equal in damage output, both being able to inflict 5 wounds on the other and killing off a model, but the Ogres were able to swing the combat into their favour with their Magic Banner, and if there's one thing that Trolls of any kind are awful at, it's Leadership tests. The Infected Vomit could have been of use to the Bile Trolls here, as it has the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule, but the number of wounds inflicted for each of the two successful wounds inflicted would have averaged out at 2, slightly less damage than what they were able to inflict in close combat. If the two units had been fighting in a line of 1 rank, this would have been a potent weapon to bring out against the Ogres, and would have inflicted 6 wounds on average which would have won the combat even with the Ogres' combat res bonus, but fielding a Monstrous Infantry unit in that manner would make the unit very unwieldy to manoeuvre and is rarely seen on Warhammer battlefields, whereas the 3-wide configuration is standard practice for fielding Monstrous Infantry. Thus I'm handing the win to the Maneaters.

Let us update the scoreboard:

That bumps the Maneaters up to joint First Place with the Chaos Trolls on 4 points apiece, while the Bile Trolls join the Ogre Bulls in joint Last Place at -4 points each.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

After an inexcusably long period of absence

Makes the time I took to create my Lore of Metal deep dive look like a speed run!

Welcome back!

Thoughts?

Bile Trolls stink when compared to ordinary trolls. I had never previously noticed how screwed up their Vomit attacks were, not being able to make use of supporting attacks like ordinary trolls can. Can't believe they cost nearly twice as much as regular trolls.

Curious to see how they end up faring in the tourney.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Welcome back!

Thank you good sir, I should be able to make more regular contributions to this thread now, so hold on to your top hat

Bile Trolls stink

Did you mean to include a Nurgle pun there?

Curious to see how they end up faring in the tourney.

They do have an extra wound apiece, +1 Toughness and Mark of Nurgle, but as you say, inferior vomit attacks, a reduced Weapon Skill and a reduced Regeneration save. That along with the existing disadvantages of standard Trolls - terrible Initiative, below-average Leadership, reliance on Regeneration and, in non-combat situations, Stupidity - all for almost double the points cost, certainly stops their advantages from really counting. I'll be interested to see if the other current losers - Kroxigors, Ushabti and Ogre Bulls - can use them to get a win and stop themselves from falling to last place.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

After an inexcusably long period of absence, I felt the time was right to have another session of Monstrous Infantry beating the crap out of each other.

Today, some Maneaters on their travels encounter some stinking Bile Trolls emerging from the swamp dead ahead of them...

Key Rules in play:
Maneaters: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn (both from Been There, Done That), Additional Hand Weapons, War Banner (+1 Combat Res)
Bile Trolls: Mark of Nurgle, Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Infected Vomit
View attachment 111352

And once again we have a short but decisive fight, which will please our resident Ogre Tyrants @Lizards of Renown and @Charlemagne immensely! Funnily enough the combatants in this bout were roughly equal in damage output, both being able to inflict 5 wounds on the other and killing off a model, but the Ogres were able to swing the combat into their favour with their Magic Banner, and if there's one thing that Trolls of any kind are awful at, it's Leadership tests. The Infected Vomit could have been of use to the Bile Trolls here, as it has the Multiple Wounds (D3) special rule, but the number of wounds inflicted for each of the two successful wounds inflicted would have averaged out at 2, slightly less damage than what they were able to inflict in close combat. If the two units had been fighting in a line of 1 rank, this would have been a potent weapon to bring out against the Ogres, and would have inflicted 6 wounds on average which would have won the combat even with the Ogres' combat res bonus, but fielding a Monstrous Infantry unit in that manner would make the unit very unwieldy to manoeuvre and is rarely seen on Warhammer battlefields, whereas the 3-wide configuration is standard practice for fielding Monstrous Infantry. Thus I'm handing the win to the Maneaters.

Let us update the scoreboard:
View attachment 111353
That bumps the Maneaters up to joint First Place with the Chaos Trolls on 4 points apiece, while the Bile Trolls join the Ogre Bulls in joint Last Place at -4 points each.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

Welcome back.

Glad to see the Maneaters coming out on stop. They are a real funny unit, as they can have different weapons per model and the additional abilities makes them very interesting. (Not the least of which is my favourite with Scouts! I always imagine them pretending to be trees and shuffling slowly into position.)

AHW, Stubborn and Poisoned attacks is a good loadout for large, low-armour enemies which, on a cursory look, is what we have on the Monstruous infantry loadout so I'm predicting they will do quite well for themselves until they hit a high initiative opponent and then there will be trouble.