8th Ed. The Best Monstrous Infantry unit in all of Warhammer

[NIGHTBRINGER]

As it's unlikely I'll have much time for this next week, I'll treat you all to two (at least) rounds of bloody combat between Monstrous Infantry units!

And you've saved all the best matches, from the current leaders, for last. A few will be knocked from their perch.

And now we wait... tick tock, tick tock

the Fireborn will definitely give a good account for themselves as also one of the few units to have a Ward Save.

They also have flaming attacks, which in this field will give them a disproportionate advantage. This group of competitors contain a very large number of units with a regeneration save or units who are flammable. Much more so as a percentage than we would expect to see on a typical tabletop battlefield. Against these units, the Fireborn will have a massive, and likely insurmountable, advantage.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

And you've saved all the best matches, from the current leaders, for last. A few will be knocked from their perch.

And now we wait... tick tock, tick tock

They also have flaming attacks, which in this field will give them a disproportionate advantage. This group of competitors contain a very large number of units with a regeneration save or units who are flammable. Much more so as a percentage than we would expect to see on a typical tabletop battlefield. Against these units, the Fireborn will have a massive, and likely insurmountable, advantage.

And so, we see Hashut in ascendance again much like their cousin the Destroyer!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

They give -1 WS, not -1 to hit. Does that affect the combat?

Yes that does affect the combat - it would simply reduce the Rat Ogres' Weapon Skill to 2, meaning they still hit the WS3 Yhetees on 4s. Time to readjust that fight:


And just like that the result is turned on its head, showing just how close the combat is between these units. Fortunately I just need to swap the colours for the combatants on the results table:



And swap their places on the scoreboard (see the first post of the thread).

But now for the main event...

And you've saved all the best matches, from the current leaders, for last. A few will be knocked from their perch.

And now we wait... tick tock, tick tock

The upper echelons of this tourney thus far prepare to duke it out... and first up, it's the Vargheists vs the Tree Kin!

Key Rules in Play:
Vargheists: Frenzy
Tree Kin: Scaly Skin (4+), Forest Spirit (6+ Ward Save)



After 5 rounds of hard slogging, thanks to their Frenzy and higher Initiative the Vargheists manage to tip the balance just enough to get the laws of probability to work against the Tree Kin, who pass their first Ld7 test but are unlikely to pass their second. I think this was a pretty unfortunate match for the Tree Kin, as theoretically 4.5 rounds up to 5, and 4.34 rounds down to 4, so technically they would have a good chance of inflicting an extra wound on the Vargheists and breaking them in the first round, but if the decimal values are counted without rounding, as we have seen there is equal chance of the Vargheists being able to wear down the Tree Kin over a surprising number of draws until the number of remaining Wood Elf Dreadnoughts gets too few to match the man-bats' damage output. Still, the Tree-Kin fought well, reducing the Vargheists to less than a third of their original unit size, and two Vargheists are a lot less threatening, and easier to pincushion with Wood Elf arrows, than 7.



With that victory the Vargheists rise to the top of the table with 5 points, but if any of the other leaders win a Massive Victory (read: The Fireborn), their spell in pole position won't last. The Tree Kin, meanwhile, drop to join the Minotaurs at a round 0 points.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Yes that does affect the combat - it would simply reduce the Rat Ogres' Weapon Skill to 2, meaning they still hit the WS3 Yhetees on 4s. Time to readjust that fight:
View attachment 112842

And just like that the result is turned on its head, showing just how close the combat is between these units. Fortunately I just need to swap the colours for the combatants on the results table:
View attachment 112843


And swap their places on the scoreboard (see the first post of the thread).

But now for the main event...

The upper echelons of this tourney thus far prepare to duke it out... and first up, it's the Vargheists vs the Tree Kin!

Key Rules in Play:
Vargheists: Frenzy
Tree Kin: Scaly Skin (4+), Forest Spirit (6+ Ward Save)

View attachment 112845

After 5 rounds of hard slogging, thanks to their Frenzy and higher Initiative the Vargheists manage to tip the balance just enough to get the laws of probability to work against the Tree Kin, who pass their first Ld7 test but are unlikely to pass their second. I think this was a pretty unfortunate match for the Tree Kin, as theoretically 4.5 rounds up to 5, and 4.34 rounds down to 4, so technically they would have a good chance of inflicting an extra wound on the Vargheists and breaking them in the first round, but if the decimal values are counted without rounding, as we have seen there is equal chance of the Vargheists being able to wear down the Tree Kin over a surprising number of draws until the number of remaining Wood Elf Dreadnoughts gets too few to match the man-bats' damage output. Still, the Tree-Kin fought well, reducing the Vargheists to less than a third of their original unit size, and two Vargheists are a lot less threatening, and easier to pincushion with Wood Elf arrows, than 7.

View attachment 112846

With that victory the Vargheists rise to the top of the table with 5 points, but if any of the other leaders win a Massive Victory (read: The Fireborn), their spell in pole position won't last. The Tree Kin, meanwhile, drop to join the Minotaurs at a round 0 points.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

That's the Yhetee result I was expecting. There is a wide difference between -1 to hit and -1 WS. I would possibly consider fielding Yhetees if they had -1 to hit, but -1 WS doesn't really make a massive difference to anyone and they have zero other defensive capabilities so they look good and have a good lore, but they are sub-par in terms of reality and gaming.

I was expecting the Vargheists to win in this match-up and they are a real contender for the top I think.

I still championing the Maneaters though!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Yes that does affect the combat - it would simply reduce the Rat Ogres' Weapon Skill to 2, meaning they still hit the WS3 Yhetees on 4s. Time to readjust that fight:

With the Rat Ogres weapon skill reduced to 2, the Yhetees should be hitting them on 3's (WS3 vs. WS2).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think this was a pretty unfortunate match for the Tree Kin, as theoretically 4.5 rounds up to 5, and 4.34 rounds down to 4, so technically they would have a good chance of inflicting an extra wound on the Vargheists and breaking them in the first round

You mean crumble an additional wound, the Vargheists are Undead, they will never break from combat.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

You mean crumble an additional wound, the Vargheists are Undead, they will never break from combat.

Yes that - I didn't know if Vampiric units were still Unbreakable or if they behaved as per normal units, thanks for the clarification

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

With the Rat Ogres weapon skill reduced to 2, the Yhetees should be hitting them on 3's (WS3 vs. WS2).

And that is an excellent point. Right, let's get this correct this time:


And we're back to pretty much the original result, with the Yhetees's advantage allowing them to inflict 1 extra wound on the Rat Ogres and send them packing.

The correct iteration of the results table:

 

[Lizards of Renown]

And that is an excellent point. Right, let's get this correct this time:
View attachment 112861

And we're back to pretty much the original result, with the Yhetees's advantage allowing them to inflict 1 extra wound on the Rat Ogres and send them packing.

The correct iteration of the results table:
View attachment 112862

Huh...

Interesting. Maybe Yhetees are a viable choice against a lower WS army (like O&G or Lizardmen). I'll do some theoryhammering.

This is obviously not taking into account any battering they will take on the way to the combat, so I don't think I'll be getting any units of these. My OKs army is pretty complete I would say.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Huh...

Interesting. Maybe Yhetees are a viable choice against a lower WS army (like O&G or Lizardmen). I'll do some theoryhammering.

This is obviously not taking into account any battering they will take on the way to the combat, so I don't think I'll be getting any units of these. My OKs army is pretty complete I would say.

I think another thing to consider is what question is being answered by this tournament. It's not "which Monstrous Infantry unit is the best". The question being answered is "which Monstrous Infantry unit is the best against other Monstrous Infantry units". It's a key distinction and the answer to which may or may not be the same. There are many abilities or attributes that are not being tested and represented in the tourney (for instance, the ability of Kroxigors and Trolls to beat extremely good armour). Similarly, our units are not being tested against hordes of cheap infantry, monsters, monstrous infantry or monstrous beasts, etc. The contestants may do better or worse against these other elements. Likewise, other attributes are over-exaggerated, like the Fireborn's flaming attacks, which grant them far more of an advantage in this particular field of competitors than it would on average across the game of Warhammer (due to regeneration/flammable being over-represented).

Just something to consider.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Now then, it's high time for another matchup! Next, it's Troll vs Troll, who will troll the other into submission? The Chaos Trolls and the River Trolls are here to fight!

Key Rules in Play:
Chaos Trolls: Extra Hand Weapons, Regeneration (4+), Troll Vomit
River Trolls: Regeneration (4+), River Troll, Troll Vomit



The Chaos Trolls win, all because they are able to bring an additional model to the field, making sure they deliver an extra point of Combat Resolution after the fighting ends for that round to win the combat, and that was enough to send the River Trolls running thanks to their terrible Leadership. I actually resolved this combat initially as a draw, and the two Troll units proceeded to wear each other down over 13 rounds of combat until the Chaos Trolls finally slew the last River Troll, having been reduced to a sixth of their starting number of Wounds themselves. It produced such a big table that I wondered how I could take a screenshot of it to post here without it being too small to read. Then I remembered because the Chaos Trolls had an extra model to start with, they would end up with a rank to be counted in Combat Resolution even after casualties at the end of the first round, and of course that turned the outcome of the combat even more favourably toward the Chaos Trolls, giving them a Massive Victory.

I honestly think these units are very well-matched, and both can do what Trolls do best, with the River Trolls trading the Chaos Trolls' extra offensive punch from their additional hand weapons for some extra defence in the form of that -1 to Hit penalty, it just appears that, as @NIGHTBRINGER relates to in his post above, Chaos Trolls appear to be better at fighting other Monstrous Infantry because of the numbers and attack output.

Anyway, let us update the scores:


This means the River Trolls drop to below the Yhetees and Skin Wolves, while the Chaos Trolls do indeed knock the Vargheists off their perch to claim top spot at a mighty 6 points!

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This means the River Trolls drop to below the Yhetees and Skin Wolves

I suspect that will only be a temporary arrangement.

while the Chaos Trolls do indeed knock the Vargheists off their perch to claim top spot at a mighty 6 points!

There is no escape from Chaos... it marks us all!

Looks as though they have already bested all their troll brethren! Only one troll vs. troll matchup is left to contest... River Trolls versus the struggling Bile Trolls

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Looks like @NIGHTBRINGER's review of the Chaos Trolls stands firm as one of the best Monstrous Infantry units.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Looks like @NIGHTBRINGER's review of the Chaos Ogres stands firm as one of the best Monstrous Infantry units.

Don’t you mean the Chaos Trolls?

The Chaos Ogres are proving to be one of the worst units in the Contest right now

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Looks like @NIGHTBRINGER's review of the Chaos Ogres stands firm as one of the best Monstrous Infantry units.

Don’t you mean the Chaos Trolls?

The Chaos Ogres are proving to be one of the worst units in the Contest right now

I concur with @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl . I've never been a proponent of Chaos Ogres. It's all about the Troll-Power!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Slip of the keyboard my friends. I did indeed mean the Chaos Trolls.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Slip of the keyboard my friends. I did indeed mean the Chaos Trolls.

Maybe a little bit of "Ogre Kingdoms" bias subconsciously slipping in there.



@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl No match this morning?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl No match this morning?

Once again we have two of the top competitors duking it out for the top spot, and today the Crypt Horrors take on the Fireborn!

Key Rules in Play:
Crypt Horrors: Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Unbreakable, Unstable
K'daai Fireborn: Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Flaming Attacks, Unbreakable, Unstable



Though the Crypt Horrors stayed for 4 rounds and killed 2 Fireborn, their Regeneration, greater numbers and double Wound count proved no match for the Fireborn's Blazing Bodies, higher Initiative and Flaming Attacks, leaving them well and truly cooked (in no small part thanks to Instability) and the K'daai in possession of another Massive Victory!



That results in the Crypt Horrors being knocked down to join the Yhetees and Skin Wolves, while the Fireborn join the Chaos Trolls in first place at 6 points!

Because I annoyingly have an odd number of units, the Maneaters will have to have two battles in Round 4, but for the time being, here's what the scoreboard looks like at the twilight of Round 3:

To me it's becoming clear that the K'daai and the Chaos Trolls are set to remain at the top (though the K'daai will take the top spot), while the Bile Trolls and Chaos Ogres will likely continue to languish at the bottom for the rest of the contest. It's still all to play for for the rest of the units, though.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Once again we have two of the top competitors duking it out for the top spot, and today the Crypt Horrors take on the Fireborn!

Key Rules in Play:
Crypt Horrors: Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Unbreakable, Unstable
K'daai Fireborn: Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Flaming Attacks, Unbreakable, Unstable

View attachment 113004

Though the Crypt Horrors stayed for 4 rounds and killed 2 Fireborn, their Regeneration, greater numbers and double Wound count proved no match for the Fireborn's Blazing Bodies, higher Initiative and Flaming Attacks, leaving them well and truly cooked (in no small part thanks to Instability) and the K'daai in possession of another Massive Victory!

View attachment 113005

That results in the Crypt Horrors being knocked down to join the Yhetees and Skin Wolves, while the Fireborn join the Chaos Trolls in first place at 6 points!

Because I annoyingly have an odd number of units, the Maneaters will have to have two battles in Round 4, but for the time being, here's what the scoreboard looks like at the twilight of Round 3:
View attachment 113006
To me it's becoming clear that the K'daai and the Chaos Trolls are set to remain at the top (though the K'daai will take the top spot), while the Bile Trolls and Chaos Ogres will likely continue to languish at the bottom for the rest of the contest. It's still all to play for for the rest of the units, though.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

This one was a foregone conclusion with the defenses being nuked due to flaming attacks/blazing body.

I still have high hopes for the Maneaters, but I think they'll end up high but not top at this rate.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Once again we have two of the top competitors duking it out for the top spot, and today the Crypt Horrors take on the Fireborn!

Key Rules in Play:
Crypt Horrors: Poisoned Attacks, Regeneration (5+), Unbreakable, Unstable
K'daai Fireborn: Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Flaming Attacks, Unbreakable, Unstable

View attachment 113004

Though the Crypt Horrors stayed for 4 rounds and killed 2 Fireborn, their Regeneration, greater numbers and double Wound count proved no match for the Fireborn's Blazing Bodies, higher Initiative and Flaming Attacks, leaving them well and truly cooked (in no small part thanks to Instability) and the K'daai in possession of another Massive Victory!

View attachment 113005

That results in the Crypt Horrors being knocked down to join the Yhetees and Skin Wolves, while the Fireborn join the Chaos Trolls in first place at 6 points!

Because I annoyingly have an odd number of units, the Maneaters will have to have two battles in Round 4, but for the time being, here's what the scoreboard looks like at the twilight of Round 3:
View attachment 113006
To me it's becoming clear that the K'daai and the Chaos Trolls are set to remain at the top (though the K'daai will take the top spot), while the Bile Trolls and Chaos Ogres will likely continue to languish at the bottom for the rest of the contest. It's still all to play for for the rest of the units, though.

Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!!

For the Crypt Horrors' regular attacks you have them wounding on 0.11. Shouldn't that be 0.25? Crypt Horrors' have S4 against the Fireborn's T4 (+ re-rolls).