8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Okay... at long last, another matchup. Arachnarok Spider versus Soul Grinder.

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok Spider: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge, Natural Armour (4+)
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

Another Massive Loss for the Spider, but this one is a lot closer than it appears to be. The Spider is losing combat by exactly 0.5 wounds (1.94444 wounds inflicted vs. 1.44444 wounds inflicted). By mathematical convention, 0.5 is rounded up to 1 as opposed to down to 0, but in reality it is just as likely to go either way. That said, even if we were to give the Spider the benefit of the doubt in the first round, we'd end up in the exact same scenario at the end of the next round. At the end of the second round the Soul Grinder would be down to 3.2/6 wounds, which would still be a massive victory. So I feel that the judgment sound in keeping with the tournament rules.

For anyone interested, if were to assume that the spider stuck around every round, and they went to the death, the Spider would actually win by a very close margin. They would kill each other in the same round, but the Spider gets to attack first.

The MVP for the Soul Grinder is its Daemonbone Claw upgrade. In this case, the Daemonbone Claw special attack was more effective than the Soul Grinder's regular attacks. Using its regular attacks, the Soul Grinder only inflicts 1.3 wounds, which results in a drawn combat each round. As described above, the Spider wins that war of attrition.

In closing, you have to feel a bit sorry for the Spider. These two are very closely matched, and a Massive Victory doesn't feel fair. However, by the rules of the tournament, it is a clean win for the Soul Grinder. If the Spider had leadership 7 instead of 6, it would be doing a lot better (but still not great) in the tourney.



And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Killer Angel]

Okay... at long last, another matchup. Arachnarok Spider versus Soul Grinder.

I was really waiting for this battle, as it was one of the better chances for the spider to score a win.
Yeah, I feel bad for it, i like it more than that hideous Soul Grinder (which in aesthetics IMO belongs more to 40k)

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay... at long last, another matchup. Arachnarok Spider versus Soul Grinder.

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok Spider: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge, Natural Armour (4+)
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

View attachment 81804

Another Massive Loss for the Spider, but this one is a lot closer than it appears to be. The Spider is losing combat by exactly 0.5 wounds (1.94444 wounds inflicted vs. 1.44444 wounds inflicted). By mathematical convention, 0.5 is rounded up to 1 as opposed to down to 0, but in reality it is just as likely to go either way. That said, even if we were to give the Spider the benefit of the doubt in the first round, we'd end up in the exact same scenario at the end of the next round. At the end of the second round the Soul Grinder would be down to 3.2/6 wounds, which would still be a massive victory. So I feel that the judgment sound in keeping with the tournament rules.

For anyone interested, if were to assume that the spider stuck around every round, and they went to the death, the Spider would actually win by a very close margin. They would kill each other in the same round, but the Spider gets to attack first.

The MVP for the Soul Grinder is its Daemonbone Claw upgrade. In this case, the Daemonbone Claw special attack was more effective than the Soul Grinder's regular attacks. Using its regular attacks, the Soul Grinder only inflicts 1.3 wounds, which results in a drawn combat each round. As described above, the Spider wins that war of attrition.

In closing, you have to feel a bit sorry for the Spider. These two are very closely matched, and a Massive Victory doesn't feel fair. However, by the rules of the tournament, it is a clean win for the Soul Grinder. If the Spider had leadership 7 instead of 6, it would be doing a lot better (but still not great) in the tourney.

View attachment 81807

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

And with that, the last place has been decided surely.

 

[Imrahil]

And with that, the last place has been decided surely.

You were somewhat right with your prediction of the Arachnarok having the best chance against the Soul Grinder.
Keen eye

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Killer Angel]

And with that, the last place has been decided surely.

Yeah, at this point only Gork (or Mork?) could save the poor spider.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay... at long last, another matchup. Arachnarok Spider versus Soul Grinder.

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok Spider: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge, Natural Armour (4+)
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

View attachment 81804

Another Massive Loss for the Spider, but this one is a lot closer than it appears to be. The Spider is losing combat by exactly 0.5 wounds (1.94444 wounds inflicted vs. 1.44444 wounds inflicted). By mathematical convention, 0.5 is rounded up to 1 as opposed to down to 0, but in reality it is just as likely to go either way. That said, even if we were to give the Spider the benefit of the doubt in the first round, we'd end up in the exact same scenario at the end of the next round. At the end of the second round the Soul Grinder would be down to 3.2/6 wounds, which would still be a massive victory. So I feel that the judgment sound in keeping with the tournament rules.

For anyone interested, if were to assume that the spider stuck around every round, and they went to the death, the Spider would actually win by a very close margin. They would kill each other in the same round, but the Spider gets to attack first.

The MVP for the Soul Grinder is its Daemonbone Claw upgrade. In this case, the Daemonbone Claw special attack was more effective than the Soul Grinder's regular attacks. Using its regular attacks, the Soul Grinder only inflicts 1.3 wounds, which results in a drawn combat each round. As described above, the Spider wins that war of attrition.

In closing, you have to feel a bit sorry for the Spider. These two are very closely matched, and a Massive Victory doesn't feel fair. However, by the rules of the tournament, it is a clean win for the Soul Grinder. If the Spider had leadership 7 instead of 6, it would be doing a lot better (but still not great) in the tourney.

View attachment 81807

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Yeah, at this point only Gork (or Mork?) could save the poor spider.

The funny thing is that if I was knowingly going up against the Arachnarok with my Lizardmen, I'd definitely have it as one of my worry points.

As we've said before, you can tend to lose sight of the big picture in this best of the best match-up. Nowhere truer than our beloved lizzies who have no representation in the above contest!

Arachnarok is definitely not something to underestimate, especial when buffed on a general/BSB bubble or spell.

Or (my personal worst nightmare) charging your flank or rear when you're already engaged with another infantry block (which is entirely possible given it's high movement and strider abilities).

 

[Killer Angel]

How do their po


The funny thing is that if I was knowingly going up against the Arachnarok with my Lizardmen, I'd definitely have it as one of my worry points.

As we've said before, you can tend to lose sight of the big picture in this best of the best match-up. Nowhere truer than our beloved lizzies who have no representation in the above contest!

Arachnarok is definitely not something to underestimate, especial when buffed on a general/BSB bubble or spell.

Or (my personal worst nightmare) charging your flank or rear when you're already engaged with another infantry block (which is entirely possible given it's high movement and strider abilities).

oh yeah, the arachnarok in a real game is a "this is bad news" monster!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay... at long last, another matchup. Arachnarok Spider versus Soul Grinder.

Key rules in play:

• Arachnarok Spider: Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge, Natural Armour (4+)
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour (4+), Daemonbone Claw

View attachment 81804

Another Massive Loss for the Spider, but this one is a lot closer than it appears to be. The Spider is losing combat by exactly 0.5 wounds (1.94444 wounds inflicted vs. 1.44444 wounds inflicted). By mathematical convention, 0.5 is rounded up to 1 as opposed to down to 0, but in reality it is just as likely to go either way. That said, even if we were to give the Spider the benefit of the doubt in the first round, we'd end up in the exact same scenario at the end of the next round. At the end of the second round the Soul Grinder would be down to 3.2/6 wounds, which would still be a massive victory. So I feel that the judgment sound in keeping with the tournament rules.

For anyone interested, if were to assume that the spider stuck around every round, and they went to the death, the Spider would actually win by a very close margin. They would kill each other in the same round, but the Spider gets to attack first.

The MVP for the Soul Grinder is its Daemonbone Claw upgrade. In this case, the Daemonbone Claw special attack was more effective than the Soul Grinder's regular attacks. Using its regular attacks, the Soul Grinder only inflicts 1.3 wounds, which results in a drawn combat each round. As described above, the Spider wins that war of attrition.

In closing, you have to feel a bit sorry for the Spider. These two are very closely matched, and a Massive Victory doesn't feel fair. However, by the rules of the tournament, it is a clean win for the Soul Grinder. If the Spider had leadership 7 instead of 6, it would be doing a lot better (but still not great) in the tourney.

View attachment 81807

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

And the Soul Grinder is actually not doing too badly, everything considered!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I was really waiting for this battle, as it was one of the better chances for the spider to score a win.
Yeah, I feel bad for it, i like it more than that hideous Soul Grinder (which in aesthetics IMO belongs more to 40k)

It could have very easily have gone the other way. If it had lost the round by 0.499999 wounds instead of 0.5, it would have been rounded down for a drawn combat. In that scenario the Spider would have actually picked up a victory.

But ultimately...

And you are right, it is an ugly-ass model in a fantasy setting. Including it in WFB was such an obvious cash grab by GW.

And with that, the last place has been decided surely.

By a long shot. With the corrections made to the Mournfang, the Spider is so far behind that it is completely insurmountable. The Spider currently sits at -8 and the next lowest is the Mournfang with -3.

And the Soul Grinder is actually not doing too badly, everything considered!

It's doing exceptionally well, especially when you consider who it has lost to. One was the Banner of the World Dragon White Lions (its absolute pure hard counter) and the other was the Witch Elves, whose poison is tailor made to bypass the Soul Grinder's impressive T7. I wouldn't be surprised to see it rise in the ranks by contest's end.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Time for the second to last match of round #4. Chaos Warriors vs. Witch Elves!


Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks

The Witch Elves make it look easy... real easy. They miss out on getting a massive victory by a hair. They needed 18 wounds remaining in order to secure the Massive Victory, but they ended up with 17.1. Additionally, in round 1 they ended up with 24.3 models remaining and needed 25 models (or with rounding, 24.5) in order to secure an extra point of rank bonus and draw the combat. If that had happened, their frenzy would have been maintained and they would sailed to a Massive Victory. Alas, it was not to be.

As for the Chaos Warriors, they are really struggling, as they currently sit at 1 win and 3 losses. They have now lost to all three of the Dark Elves infantry units in the competition. For those interested, here are how the three Dark Elves units compare in their matchups with the Chaos Warriors:

1. Witch Elves win the contest with 17.1/36 wounds remaining (47.5% of their unit survives)
2. Black Guard win the contest with 7.3/26 wounds remaining (29.2% of their unit survives)
3. Executioners win the contest with 6.3/33 wounds remaining (19.1% of their unit survives)

So clearly, of the Dark Elves infantry units, the Witch Elves had the easiest time with the Chaos Warriors. Also, Chaos Warriors are not really a great unit for taking on Dark Elves!



One more match remains to close out round #4.

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

@Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER was saying that we should have had a Treeman in the competition (she loves the Wood Elves). In hindsight, it would have done better than the Arachnarok!

 

[Imrahil]

Time for the second to last match of round #4. Chaos Warriors vs. Witch Elves!


Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks

View attachment 81852

The Witch Elves make it look easy... real easy. They miss out on getting a massive victory by a hair. They needed 18 wounds remaining in order to secure the Massive Victory, but they ended up with 17.1. Additionally, in round 1 they ended up with 24.3 models remaining and needed 25 models (or with rounding, 24.5) in order to secure an extra point of rank bonus and draw the combat. If that had happened, their frenzy would have been maintained and they would sailed to a Massive Victory. Alas, it was not to be.

As for the Chaos Warriors, they are really struggling, as they currently sit at 1 win and 3 losses. They have now lost to all three of the Dark Elves infantry units in the competition. For those interested, here are how the three Dark Elves units compare in their matchups with the Chaos Warriors:

1. Witch Elves win the contest with 17.1/36 wounds remaining (47.5% of their unit survives)
2. Black Guard win the contest with 7.3/26 wounds remaining (29.2% of their unit survives)
3. Executioners win the contest with 6.3/33 wounds remaining (19.1% of their unit survives)

So clearly, of the Dark Elves infantry units, the Witch Elves had the easiest time with the Chaos Warriors. Also, Chaos Warriors are not really a great unit for taking on Dark Elves!

View attachment 81853

One more match remains to close out round #4.

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Yeey for the Witch Elves Interesting to say the least.
I had not foreseen such an 'easy' win. They do really pack a punch, their ASF helps quite a lot to survive the first turn.

I wonder if I accidently picked the right unit to bet on (I know that against heavy armored units they will struggle more)

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Time for the second to last match of round #4. Chaos Warriors vs. Witch Elves!


Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks

View attachment 81852

The Witch Elves make it look easy... real easy. They miss out on getting a massive victory by a hair. They needed 18 wounds remaining in order to secure the Massive Victory, but they ended up with 17.1. Additionally, in round 1 they ended up with 24.3 models remaining and needed 25 models (or with rounding, 24.5) in order to secure an extra point of rank bonus and draw the combat. If that had happened, their frenzy would have been maintained and they would sailed to a Massive Victory. Alas, it was not to be.

As for the Chaos Warriors, they are really struggling, as they currently sit at 1 win and 3 losses. They have now lost to all three of the Dark Elves infantry units in the competition. For those interested, here are how the three Dark Elves units compare in their matchups with the Chaos Warriors:

1. Witch Elves win the contest with 17.1/36 wounds remaining (47.5% of their unit survives)
2. Black Guard win the contest with 7.3/26 wounds remaining (29.2% of their unit survives)
3. Executioners win the contest with 6.3/33 wounds remaining (19.1% of their unit survives)

So clearly, of the Dark Elves infantry units, the Witch Elves had the easiest time with the Chaos Warriors. Also, Chaos Warriors are not really a great unit for taking on Dark Elves!

View attachment 81853

One more match remains to close out round #4.

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Well, that really drives the point home about the Dark Elves being an OP army. Wow.

It's very interesting to me and I'm starting to change my viewpoint about units who may not have the best attacking WS or strength but have LOTS of attacks.

Even outside of a math-hammer match-up, it also gives you better chances to have the dice gods smile on you when you are going into combat.

We all know the pain of a high strength, low attacks model fluffing it's to-hit rolls and doing nothing (monsters are the best example of this IMHO) but I hadn't really considered the value of the large number of attacks.

I wonder how the build that @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl suggested would have done (Mark of Khorne (Frenzy) and additional hand weapons).

Either way, we are still talking about best of the best match-ups in isolation, but it's still a good lesson to learn on the multiple attacks.

 

[Imrahil]

but have LOTS of attacks.

...

Either way, we are still talking about best of the best match-ups in isolation, but it's still a good lesson to learn on the multiple attacks

Exactly, this all is under the pretense that you can get all those attacks(models) safely into close combat.

Also it raises the question: what unit size would you normally use of given unit?
Maybe you rarely spend 406 points on a unit of Witch Elves whereas you might very often spend 409 points on a unit of Chaos Warriors

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well, that really drives the point home about the Dark Elves being an OP army. Wow.

They are part of the trinity that makes up the top tier. High Elves, Dark Elves and Warriors of Chaos.

It's very interesting to me and I'm starting to change my viewpoint about units who may not have the best attacking WS or strength but have LOTS of attacks.

Even outside of a math-hammer match-up, it also gives you better chances to have the dice gods smile on you when you are going into combat.

It's a combination of their large attack output in conjunction with their special rules: ASF, Poisoned Attacks and Murderous Prowess. Take away those special rules and their S3 attacks are meaningless. Equally, those special rules wouldn't get them very far if they didn't have so many attacks.

Many attacks + ASF + Poison is a deadly combination!

Exactly, this all is under the pretense that you can get all those attacks(models) safely into close combat.

This is a good point. There are a few armies out there that can significantly reduce their unit size at range. This is one of the main reasons why Wood Elves countered them so well when the 8th edition WE army book was released.

Salamanders are good for this too!

Also it raises the question: what unit size would you normally use of given unit?
Maybe you rarely spend 406 points on a unit of Witch Elves whereas you might very often spend 409 points on a unit of Chaos Warriors

From what I have seen, Witch Elves are typically fielded in the form of large 30-50 model horde units (many times with a Cauldron of Blood too). Witch Elves have the same advantage as Chaos Warriors, they are a core selection. You got to spend those core points somewhere, it might as well be for an absolute hammer of a unit.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Last matchup of round #4. Demigryph Knights versus Har Ganeth Executioners.

Key rules in play:

• Har Ganeth Executioners: Murderous Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

Executioners strike first and S6 goes a long way towards dealing with 1+ armour. The Demigryphs were down to half their starting unit before they got to swing back.

This could be the opening that the Skullcrushers (after losing their head to head match) need against the Demigryphs. Can they make up ground? The Skullcrusher riders (but not the Juggernauts) will get to strike simultaneously with the Executioners. Can they do better or will they share the same fate? It will be interesting to see.

The Executioners are looking strong after their massive win...


And with that, round 4 is in the bag!

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Many attacks + ASF + Poison is a deadly combination!

Yes, plus their Murderous Prowess. They're pretty hardcore for a core choice to be honest.

This is a good point. There are a few armies out there that can significantly reduce their unit size at range. This is one of the main reasons why Wood Elves countered them so well when the 8th edition WE army book was released. Salamanders are good for this too!

Skinks are great for this as well, even just cohorts who can be thrown away after firing at them and probably killing a bunch (or Razordons but I dislike Razordons due to having to use their BS to hit... that said, I've always been pretty unlucky with my artillery dice rolls on Salamanders.... )

Witch Elves have the same advantage as Chaos Warriors, they are a core selection. You got to spend those core points somewhere, it might as well be for an absolute hammer of a unit.

I think this is one of the key points about both armies. They have awesome, deadly troops in their core section. I wonder how much it would change both armies if for instance the only core choices for Dark Elves were Spearmen/Swordsmen and Archers.... Conversely, I wonder what kind of a difference it would make to Lizardmen to be able to have straight-up Kroxigor in their core choices or even COR.

Makes you thinks doesn't it?

What if Warriors of Chaos had to field Marauder-type troops as their core only?! Or none of their core choices could have any Marks of Chaos?

 

[Imrahil]

What if Warriors of Chaos had to field Marauder-type troops as their core only?! Or none of their core choices could have any Marks of Chaos?

Interesting thought.
You can probably run it as a house rule

But Lore wise a Mark of Chaos is mandatory I guess.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Interesting thought.
You can probably run it as a house rule

But Lore wise a Mark of Chaos is mandatory I guess.

Grrr, Imrahil

Don't get me started on canon lore and what the rules state... There is a wealth of arguing to be done there.

 

[Imrahil]

Sorry for the double post...

Grrr, Imrahil