8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

The God-Emperor NIGHTBRINGER (or is that title only unlocked after 50k posts? ) has heard your pleas. Fear not my brothers, for he is a merciful Slann.

It would appear that the White Lions (with their stupid banner) love to pick on Deamons of Chaos units. They seemed to have a bit of trouble against the Dwarfs, but not enough to satisfy your lust for their suffering. As such, I believe we simply need a better breed of Dwarfs (sorry @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl ) to be the instrument of your vengeful fury, or more accurately the fine craftsmanship of a better breed of Dwarfs. So with that, I present:

K'daai Destroyer vs. the White Lions of Chrace.

Key rules in play:

• Destroyer: Unstable, Unbreakable, Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Frenzy (D3 Attacks)
• White Lions: Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

View attachment 81491

An easy Massive Victory for the K'daai Destroyer. In place of my usual post fight analysis, I've prepared a lovely pictorial replay of the match:

Spoiler: Enjoy!

View attachment 81492 View attachment 81493 View attachment 81494

And here is our updated table:
View attachment 81495

I hope that has satiated your bloodlust for High Elven death and misery!

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Given that the K’daai is a Fire Daemon, wouldn’t his attacks be Daemonic, and thus magical?

@Lizards of Renown only just saw your post after I posted mine

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Given that the K’daai is a Fire Daemon, wouldn’t his attacks be Daemonic, and thus magical?

@Lizards of Renown only just saw your post after I posted mine

Yup, great minds think alike.

I was expecting this match-up to be one of the definite losses for the K'Daai...

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Yup, great minds think alike.

I was expecting this match-up to be one of the definite losses for the K'Daai...

Depends whether he does actually have the Daemonic rule. I’d assume so given he is a Fire Daemon.

Concerning the White Lions, I think the best counter to them will actually be the Black Guard, as they have 2 attacks each, strike first, have an extra point of Initiative so should actually re-roll hit rolls and their Halberds will give them Strength 4 which allows them to wound on 3s and reduce the White Lions’ save to 6+, as well as Murderous Prowess allowing them to re-roll 1s. Additionally all their attacks are mundane so the Banner of the World Dragon will be useless.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Doesn't the K'Daai's attacks all count as magical (as a Daemon) and so activates the 2+ ward save ridiculousness?

Given that the K’daai is a Fire Daemon, wouldn’t his attacks be Daemonic, and thus magical?

Nope! The K'daai Destroyer's attacks are not magical. It's profile makes no mention of the special rules Magical Attacks or Daemonic. As for the Bound Fire Daemon special rule, it reads:






Furthermore, it was clarified in the Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos FAQ:



So fear not, the White Lions got a fair and legal beating!

Concerning the White Lions, I think the best counter to them will actually be the Black Guard, as they have 2 attacks each, strike first, have an extra point of Initiative so should actually re-roll hit rolls and their Halberds will give them Strength 4 which allows them to wound on 3s and reduce the White Lions’ save to 6+, as well as Murderous Prowess allowing them to re-roll 1s. Additionally all their attacks are mundane so the Banner of the World Dragon will be useless.

I expect that both the Black Guard and the Witch Elves will put a hurting on them.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Nope! The K'daai Destroyer's attacks are not magical. It's profile makes no mention of the special rules Magical Attacks or Daemonic. As for the Bound Fire Daemon special rule, it reads:

View attachment 81522




Furthermore, it was clarified in the Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos FAQ:

View attachment 81521

So fear not, the White Lions got a fair and legal beating!



I expect that both the Black Guard and the Witch Elves will put a hurting on them.

Hooray!

 

[Killer Angel]

So fear not, the White Lions got a fair and legal beating!

AH! Take that home, bearers of the broken banner!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

AH! Take that home, bearers of the broken banner!

I think they will experience many more loses in the future. They only have one more big win left to claim.

If I had to venture some guesses/predications:

• White Lions will finish in the bottom 8
• Witch Elves will finish in the top 8 (and first among infantry units)
• Trolls will finish in the top 8
• HPA will finish in the top 8
• Skullcrushers will finish in the top 8
• Demigryph Knights will finish in the top 8
• Beasts of Nurgle will finish in the top 8
• K'daai Destroyer will finish #1
• Arachnarok will finish dead last

Then again, there have been quite a few twists and surprises already, so who knows!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Time for another match... and a rather interesting one! Skullcrushers of Khorne versus the Hell Pit Abomination.

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, Mark of Khorne (Frenzy)
• HPA: Regeneration, Special Close Combat Attacks, Stubborn

And...BOOM... just like that the HPA hands the Skullcrushers another defeat! A hard fought battle but in the end it is the HPA that prevails.

The HPA had a lot of things going for it. Firstly, it is a fairly cheap monster (for what you are getting) and as a result, the Skullcrushers have to go into the battle with only 3 models. Next, the HPA's S6 (plus it's random attack that ignores armour) helps manage the Skullcrushers' mighty 1+ armour save (which is their main line of defense). Lastly, we see the worth of regeneration yet again, as it helps turn away a bunch of incoming damage and is completely unfazed by the S5 of the Skullcrushers.

In actual game terms, a Skaven player does have to be careful though. A 4th Skullcrusher or the Banner of Eternal Flame changes the equation very quickly. However, under normal conditions and going point for point, the HPA proves that it is a top contender.



Will the Skullcrushers make the top 3?? top 5?? The top 3 is beginning to look a bit doubtful. The K'daai is likely to finish above it. The Demigryphs as well, based on winning their head-to-head matchup and being a very similar unit (so same strengths and weaknesses). The Demigryphs will obviously be stomped more easily by the K'daai, but the same can be said for the Skullcrushers against the White Lions (so that is a wash). Who else might sneak past the Skullcrushers? The trolls? The HPA?

Very interesting.

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Definitely didn't see the Arachnarok ending up at the bottom of the table though... That's an interesting one and highlights the neutering of monsters in 8th edition.

I must say that I disagree, for a couple of reasons:

1. These are the best of the best combat units in the entire game, no real shame in losing to any of them

2. Monsters (by unit type) are actually overrepresented in the tournament (having 4 contestants, the second most among any unit type), so people must feel that they have some merit

3. Monsters bring other assets to the table. For instance, a WoC Chimera might not fare very well in our tournament, but is it any less valuable than a unit of Black Guard. Assets such a the ability to fly or cause terror can sometimes outweigh raw combat power.

4. Lastly and most importantly, the tournament results (at least thus far) don't show that. Sure, the Arachnarok is in last place, but the K'daai Destroyer is in first place. The Soul Grinder may be in the bottom 8, but the HPA* is easily in the top 8.


I do agree with you that monsters aren't that prevalent in 8th edition, I just simply disagree on the reason for it. I don't think it is because they are too weak, I just think it's because cannons are just too much of a counter against them (and more armies got access to cannons under 8th edition... DoC, Ogres). In a non canon environment, I think monsters could do quite well. Additionally, I must add that steadfast hurts them. At the very least a monster should count as at least a single rank itself.


*I realize that the HPA was created in 7th edition, but the Skaven were the very last 7th edition army book released, and were largely written with 8th edition in mind.

 

[Killer Angel]

A couple of brief considerations.

1.
The skullcrushers vs the HPA was a total surprise... 'til i realized that there were only 3 of them. HPA is strong, but not that much. It's main selling point is that it's very cheap for what it brings to the table.
In a tournament like this, when you are not going to face the well-rounded units that you see in normal games, the HPA is a real monster.

2.
The main weakness of monsters in 8th was the combat resolution. In this contest, the strong opponents are limited in numbers and that gives monsters a sort of advantage.
But the real losing monsters in 8th were the ones with heroes upon them (tnx to the stupid rules of cannons). Monsters alone were... fine.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The skullcrushers vs the HPA was a total surprise... 'til i realized that there were only 3 of them. HPA is strong, but not that much. It's main selling point is that it's very cheap for what it brings to the table.
In a tournament like this, when you are not going to face the well-rounded units that you see in normal games, the HPA is a real monster.

Mind you that the HPA is can be a real terror to face on the battlefield too (unless you have cannons). It can solo entire units.

The main weakness of monsters in 8th was the combat resolution.

Which is somewhat mitigated by a solid thunderstomp, but as a general rule, I think that is sound statement. Unless you're a K'daai Destroyer, who just makes its own combat resolution through.... the death of its enemies!

But the real losing monsters in 8th were the ones with herors upon then (tnx to the stupid rules of cannons). Monsters alone were... fine.

I have no idea what GW was thinking in regards to cannons simultaneously hitting both the monster and rider. That has to be one of the most bone-headed decisions in 8th edition. I want to field a Chaos Lord on a dragon!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

How about another matchup? A classic one this time. Greenskins vs. Dwarfs. Savage Orc Big'uns vs. Hammerers!

***UPDATED, as @Wyvernaarch correctly pointed out, Dwarfs have the Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) special rule. This was not accounted for in the original calculations. The calculations and results table have now been updated. The results flipped as a consequence!***

Key rules in play:

• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint
• Hammerers: Stubborn, Hatred (Orcs & Goblins)

A very hard fought victory for the Savage Orcs. They may have prevailed in the end, but the Hammerers made them pay for it.

Savage Orcs are deadly in the first round when their Choppas rule is in effect, especially in combination with their frenzy. They simply did too much damage to the Dwarfs and gave themselves and insurmountable lead. The Hammerers were even placed in a narrow formation to avoid as much damage as possible. This is what the first round of combat looks like if the Hammers are also fielded as a horde...

Spoiler: Alternate formation, Hammerers fielded as a horde

What a difference such a small change makes. As a result of the Hatred special rule, the Dwarfs were able to do a couple of extra wounds in the first round of combat. This had no significant effect on the first round, (Hammerers lose by 1 instead of 3, and still pass their stubborn break test). However, those extra 2 wounds inflicted in the first round, had a significant effect on the results of the second round. Previously the Savage Orcs finished the round with just enough models to maintain a rank bonus of 3, which tied the combat. They then went on to whittle down the Hammerers. With the extra pair of wounds caused in the first round by the inclusion of Hatred, the Savage Orcs found themselves two models shy of a rank bonus of 3 and ended up losing by one, thereby losing their frenzy (if they form up 5 wide, they keep the rank bonus of 3, but inflict less wounds and still lose the round). The lose of frenzy completely tips the balance of the match, which results in the Hammerers breaking them in the next round.

So there you have it. The Hammerers manage to pull off what is once again (see the White Lions matchup) a victory by the very tightest of margins. It may be an ugly win, but a win is a win!!!

*Corrected* updated table:



And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I must say that I disagree, for a couple of reasons:

I think we missed each other's point on this.

I agree with each of your points and we actually have spoken about them earlier in this thread.

1. These are the best of the best combat units in the entire game, no real shame in losing to any of them

We actually went over this exact point. Even in isolation of any other tactics, it's still best of best so no shame in losing out. We all know each of these units mean trouble when used correctly.

2. Monsters (by unit type) are actually overrepresented in the tournament (having 4 contestants, the second most among any unit type), so people must feel that they have some merit

3. Monsters bring other assets to the table. For instance, a WoC Chimera might not fare very well in our tournament, but is it any less valuable than a unit of Black Guard. Assets such a the ability to fly or cause terror can sometimes outweigh raw combat power.

4. Lastly and most importantly, the tournament results (at least thus far) don't show that. Sure, the Arachnarok is in last place, but the K'daai Destroyer is in first place. The Soul Grinder may be in the bottom 8, but the HPA* is easily in the top 8.

I do agree with you that monsters aren't that prevalent in 8th edition, I just simply disagree on the reason for it. I don't think it is because they are too weak, I just think it's because cannons are just too much of a counter against them (and more armies got access to cannons under 8th edition... DoC, Ogres). In a non canon environment, I think monsters could do quite well. Additionally, I must add that steadfast hurts them. At the very least a monster should count as at least a single rank itself. [/QUOTE]

We have specifically gone over monsters, as far as I recall. The main thing that happened in 8th edition is that Terror specifically got neutered and then with the combat resolution rules, suddenly monsters don't do well when faced with a medium or better infantry unit. Odds are they won't win out unless supported by their own block of infantry.

@Killer Angel made this the point succinctly.

I also have had trouble with challenges with my heros/lords on Carnosaurs against cavalry, suddenly no Thunderstomp and the lord directs his attacks against the Carnosaur which doesn't really have a great defense (T5 and 4+) and with WS3 they are easily hit. My carnosaurs in the challenge ended up bleeding combat resolution or dying!

I'm not sure that I'd give monsters a rank, but there has to be some rule to reflect the fact that it is a flipping MONSTER. Maybe the weapon skill is off? I think that would make it more realistic as in the Carnosaur's case it's supposed to be the apex predator, but has trouble getting hold of things to bite? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me honestly.

I fully agree on the cannon fodder. Not only is it OP, it's also unreal. If you are sitting on top of an elephant and a cannon was fired at you, the ball would either hit you or the elephant. It doesn't explode, so unless it was fired from right above you there is no chance you would both be hit.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

How about another matchup? A classic one this time. Greenskins vs. Dwarfs. Savage Orc Big'uns vs. Hammerers!

Key rules in play:

• Savage Orcs: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint
• Hammerers: Stubborn

View attachment 81605

A very hard fought victory for the Savage Orcs. They may have prevailed in the end, but the Hammerers made them pay for it.

Savage Orcs are deadly in the first round when their Choppas rule is in effect, especially in combination with their frenzy. They simply did too much damage to the Dwarfs and gave themselves and insurmountable lead. The Hammerers were even placed in a narrow formation to avoid as much damage as possible. This is what the first round of combat looks like if the Hammers are also fielded as a horde...

Spoiler: Alternate formation, Hammerers fielded as a horde

View attachment 81606

Essentially the battle is over before the Hammerers even get to strike. 50 incoming S5 attacks is just plain nasty.

The ASL of the Hammerers seems to really hurt them in this tournament. With so many highly potent offensive units in the tourney, going second is a huge detriment to the Hammerers chances of winning. We'll see how they do against more armoured units with less models/attacks. On the plus side for Dwarfs, their Stubborn has proven to be hugely valuable, as even when they lose, they always stick around for a few turns and take a sizeable chunk out of their opponents (with the exception of the K'daai Destroyer).

Updated table:
View attachment 81607

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Brutal.

The funny thing is you'd think that their 6++ is not worth mentioning, but a lot of the time you have a strength 4 or 5 hit incoming, which would reduce anyone to a 6+ armour save anyways. Combine with their pretty hefty attack output, they are definitely a unit that I try to whittle down before I get into combat with them.

The ASL (as we Lizardmen players know) is a really hurtful rule. I think that the "Chargers strike first" should have been kept as it really kills off the effectiveness of units like the Hammerers (such as Kroxigor).

But in the final analysis, Savage Orcs are a good unit to field. Just don't rely on them if you have a ballistics heavy opponent, or at least shield them until they can get into combat. I definitely have Skins go hunting for them if I can.

 

[Wyvernaarch]

Thanks for the thread, I've found lots of useful and interesting data here! However, I have a question regarding the last match (Big'uns versus Hammerers): was Hammerer's Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) special rule counted in calculations? This could help them a bit.
Also, Hatred (Skaven) can be utilised in match against HPA. Would like to see whether that has an effect or not.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Thanks for the thread, I've found lots of useful and interesting data here! However, I have a question regarding the last match (Big'uns versus Hammerers): was Hammerer's Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) special rule counted in calculations? This could help them a bit.
Also, Hatred (Skaven) can be utilised in match against HPA. Would like to see whether that has an effect or not.

That is a great catch! To be honest, I completely missed that. You are correct; hiding in their Ancestral Grudge special rule are indeed the rules for Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) and Hatred (Skaven). I will redo the calculations for the Savage Orcs vs. Hammerers matchup, accounting for their hatred special rule and update the thread once I have the results.

Thank you so much for pointing that out! And welcome to the forum (and thread)! I look forward to hearing more from you as our tournament progresses. Keep sharing your thoughts on it, and if you catch errors on my part, please let me know. I want this to be as accurate as possible, and with so many numbers and rules floating around, I'm bound to miss something from time to time.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Thanks for the thread, I've found lots of useful and interesting data here! However, I have a question regarding the last match (Big'uns versus Hammerers): was Hammerer's Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) special rule counted in calculations? This could help them a bit.
Also, Hatred (Skaven) can be utilised in match against HPA. Would like to see whether that has an effect or not.

I have updated the original matchup post.

In short... the small difference ended up making a big difference!

Thanks again for pointing out the error!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think we missed each other's point on this.

I agree with each of your points and we actually have spoken about them earlier in this thread.

We actually went over this exact point. Even in isolation of any other tactics, it's still best of best so no shame in losing out. We all know each of these units mean trouble when used correctly.

I remember our discussions, but I thought it to be relevant to the topic at hand. I know that we agree on most it!

I also have had trouble with challenges with my heros/lords on Carnosaurs against cavalry, suddenly no Thunderstomp and the lord directs his attacks against the Carnosaur which doesn't really have a great defense (T5 and 4+) and with WS3 they are easily hit. My carnosaurs in the challenge ended up bleeding combat resolution or dying!

I wouldn't use the the Carnosaur as an accurate stand-in for monsters in general. I feel the Carnosaur is a pretty weak choice as far as monster mounts go. It simply isn't defensive enough in my opinion.


This is a very interesting discussion (you always seem to have a knack for creating fun and informative conversations!). So much so, that I decided to take a close look at just how prevalent and/or good monsters are. To be honest, I was a bit surprised when I analyzed the topic army by army. These are of course only my personal opinions/classifications.

In terms of stand-alone monsters (i.e. not mounts for lords/heroes)...

Armies with either a good, great or auto-include monster:

• Chaos Dwarfs [K’daai Destroyer]
• Daemons of Chaos [Greater Daemons, Soul Grinder]
• High Elves [Frostheart Phoenix]
• Lizardmen [Stegadon]
• Orcs & Goblins [Arachnarok Spider]
• Skaven [Hell Pit Abomination]
• Tomb Kings [Hierotitan]
• Vampire Counts [Terrorgheist]
• Warriors of Chaos [Daemon Prince, Chimera]
• Wood Elves [Treeman]

Armies with only mediocre or poor monsters:

• Beastmen
• Dark Elves (I know that the Hydra was OP in 7th, not really sure where it stands now)
• Ogre Kingdoms

Armies with no monsters at all [discounting mounts]:

• Bretonnia
• Dwarfs
• Empire

Some of these classifications can be slightly up for debate (i.e. Stegadon, Treeman), while others are pure and simple staples of their respective armies (K'daai Destroyer, Terrorgheist, etc.]. Looking at it more closely, monsters are maybe a bit more prevalent than I gave them credit for. Just some food for thought.

 

[Killer Angel]

Thanks for the thread, I've found lots of useful and interesting data here! However, I have a question regarding the last match (Big'uns versus Hammerers): was Hammerer's Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) special rule counted in calculations? This could help them a bit.
Also, Hatred (Skaven) can be utilised in match against HPA. Would like to see whether that has an effect or not.

Welcome to Lustria!

...and very good find. thanks!


LET'S GO BOYS; GIVE 'EM SOME HAMMERS!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Thanks for the thread, I've found lots of useful and interesting data here! However, I have a question regarding the last match (Big'uns versus Hammerers): was Hammerer's Hatred (Orcs & Goblins) special rule counted in calculations? This could help them a bit.
Also, Hatred (Skaven) can be utilised in match against HPA. Would like to see whether that has an effect or not.

Good catch! Honestly surprised I didn't spot that one since I played Dwarves bakc in the day... I guess @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl has been busy

Welcome to the forums! Do an introductory post in the introductions section on the main page so we can all say hi!