8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

It will be interesting to see how the Hammerers fair against the more heavily armoured units (Demigryphs, Skullcrushers, Mournfang), each of who have less attacks and less models/wounds (at any given points value / unit size).

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what the Hammerers do to those, as their Strength 6 will wound them on 2s and reduce their armour save by -3. I'm concerned about Skullcrushers still having an edge due to having lots of attacks, but with the Demigryphs having rubbish riders and the Mournfangs going along the defensive route rather than the aggressive route, the Hammerers look set to do well against them.

I'm surprised we haven't heard some grumblings from @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl . I would have thought for sure that he'd add the Witch Elves to his Book of Grudges!

Oh yes, I'm definitely going to add those damned throat-slitting she-Elves to the Book, especially after murdering all those noble bodyguards of the High King. I just don't like Witch Elves, lorewise or modelwise and I hate to see them win against anything cooler. But then despite my annoyance, you ar right, Hammerers are there to kill armoured stuff and their high Strength is wasted on T3, unarmoured Witch Elves. That's what Ironbreakers are there to deal with - their 3+ Armour Save and 5+ Parry Save will laugh off the Witch Elves' measly daggers and their own WS 5 Strength 4 attacks are enough to spill the Witch Elves' blood for their own Murder God's pleasure. In this match at least there are only 18 left, and some well-placed volleys from Dwarf firearms and war machines would soon see the rest of them shredded in a pitched battle.

Indeed. The Witch Elves have done very well up until now, but they have also enjoyed a slightly more favourable schedule. They can't duck the armoured units forever!

I'm looking forward to seeing how they fare against 1+ armour save Skullcrushers and Demigryphs! I reckon even the Arachnarok will have a fair chance as the Witch Elves will be forced to wound it on 6s and even the Forest Goblins will be able to do something against them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

but with the Demigryphs having rubbish riders and the Mournfangs going along the defensive route rather than the aggressive route, the Hammerers look set to do well against them.

I expect the Hammerers to prevail. We've already seen the Executioners devastate the Demigryphs. Admittedly the Executioners got to strike first in that matchup, but the Hammerers make up for it by having two attacks/model in the front rank.

. I just don't like Witch Elves, lorewise or modelwise

Witch Elves models are fantastic. I was about to ask how you could possibly dislike such great models, but then I remembered that you always have the opposite opinion to my own. So the second I deemed them to be amazing sculpts, you by definition, must detest them. Rules are rules.

The Witch Elves might be the best female sculpts GW (or any other company) has ever done. They are the perfect embodiment of their lore. Sleek, fast and dynamic.

What is wrong with their lore?

I'm looking forward to seeing how they fare against 1+ armour save Skullcrushers and Demigryphs!

The Witch Elves are going to get crushed by the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and Mournfang! I reckon they will lose against the Black Guard as well.

I reckon even the Arachnarok will have a fair chance as the Witch Elves will be forced to wound it on 6s and even the Forest Goblins will be able to do something against them.

I can't stress this enough, the Witch Elves are going to SHRED the Arachnaork. That contest isn't going to have a second round. Poison is the hard counter to toughness.

We've already seen the Witch Elves absolutely face stomp the HPA and Soul Grinder, both of which are far more formidable monsters. Not only that, but the Witch Elves will defeat the K'daii Destroyer in their matchup (it may or may not be a massive victory, but it will be a victory).

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I expect the Hammerers to prevail. We've already seen the Executioners devastate the Demigryphs. Admittedly the Executioners got to strike first in that matchup, but the Hammerers make up for it by having two attacks/model in the front rank.


Witch Elves models are fantastic. I was about to ask how you could possibly dislike such great models, but then I remembered that you always have the opposite opinion to my own. So the second I deemed them to be amazing sculpts, you by definition, must detest them. Rules are rules.

The Witch Elves might be the best female sculpts GW (or any other company) has ever done. They are the perfect embodiment of their lore. Sleek, fast and dynamic.

What is wrong with their lore?


The Witch Elves are going to get crushed by the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and Mournfang! I reckon they will lose against the Black Guard as well.


I can't stress this enough, the Witch Elves are going to SHRED the Arachnaork. That contest isn't going to have a second round. Poison is the hard counter to toughness.

We've already seen the Witch Elves absolutely face stomp the HPA and Soul Grinder, both of which are far more formidable monsters. Not only that, but the Witch Elves will defeat the K'daii Destroyer in their matchup (it may or may not be a massive victory, but it will be a victory).

Yep. Poison and their fearsome number of attacks will decimate the Destroyer.

 

[Killer Angel]

I have to say that I have severely underestimated this unit.

you were not the only one...

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Witch Elves models are fantastic. I was about to ask how you could possibly dislike such great models, but then I remembered that you always have the opposite opinion to my own. So the second I deemed them to be amazing sculpts, you by definition, must detest them. Rules are rules.

The Witch Elves might be the best female sculpts GW (or any other company) has ever done. They are the perfect embodiment of their lore. Sleek, fast and dynamic.

I just find some of their faces and poses to just not look right (particularly the body that’s doing the funky chicken and the face that looks more pained than eager to inflict pain). Don’t get me wrong, to have plastic versions of them is very nice for those who like them and want lots of them, and you’re right, they certainly capture the dynamic nature of the unit, but I just can’t get those few odd poses and faces out of my mind. Also I’m not so keen on the wispy straight hair because loads of Elves have that, and thought the massive poofy hairdos of the older models were more reflective of their unhinged nature.

What is wrong with their lore?

I don’t like their excessive obsessions with slitting the throats of the innocent, bathing/having lesbian orgies in the spilt blood, flagellating prisoners and each other and other generally hedonistic ways. Indeed I just can’t stand the bad girl archetype in general, whether it’s Witch Elves, Escher Gangers or Mirror Kira from DS9. I’m not saying it’s bad lore because it’s very fitting for the grimdarkness of Warhammer Fantasy, it’s just not to my taste.

The Witch Elves are going to get crushed by the Skullcrushers, Demigryphs and Mournfang! I reckon they will lose against the Black Guard as well.

Good point about the Black Guard - their higher Initiative of 6 means they’ll Always Strike First, plus their 2 attacks each and Strength 4 Halberds wounding on 3s mean they’ll chop a few lumps out of the Witch Elves before they can even do anything.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

excessive obsessions with slitting the throats of the innocent, bathing/having lesbian orgies in the spilt blood, flagellating prisoners and each other and other generally hedonistic ways

Just some wholesome Slaaneshi fun!

I actually own a couple of boxes of them (unpainted of course) as stand ins for Chaos Slaaneshi Warriors/Marauders.

it’s just not to my taste.

Fair enough.

Good point about the Black Guard - their higher Initiative of 6 means they’ll Always Strike First, plus their 2 attacks each and Strength 4 Halberds wounding on 3s mean they’ll chop a few lumps out of the Witch Elves before they can even do anything.

Actually they both have Initiative 6, but it wouldn't matter either way. When two models have the ASF rule, they strike simultaneously, regardless of initiative. Plus neither model can benefit from re-rolls granted by ASF. However, this is the rare situation where the Black Guard's Eternal Hatred kicks in and is actually useful. As a result, the Black Guard will be able to re-roll their misses, while the Witch Elves will not.

So it will come down to the Black Guard's extra Strength, re-rolls of misses and heavy armour vs. the Witch Elves' poison, extra attack and greater model count. It will be a blood bath! It should be a good one. I don't think any of the other infantry units in our tourney stand a chance against the Witch Elves.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And on we go with the next match up! Mournfang Cavalry versus Chaos Trolls

Key rules in play:

• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick-Skinned, Ironfists
• Chaos Trolls: Regeneration, Troll Vomit

The Mournfang perform better than the Demigryph Knights had in their previous encounter with the Trolls, but ultimately, they to had to pay the Troll toll.

The Mournfang showed some serious offensive punch with their 7 attacks per model and their mounted parry save helped keep them in it for longer than expected. However, in the end, the Troll's Regeneration, Troll Vomit and model count proved too much (even though I gave the Mournfang their standard despite that inclusion throwing off the perfect points balance).

For the time being, the Trolls move into a tie for 3rd place with the Executioners, and they'll have to wait and see if the Executioners move past them or fall below them after their matchup.




Thoughts and comments...

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

View attachment 81985

Just some wholesome Slaaneshi fun!

I actually own a couple of boxes of them (unpainted of course) as stand ins for Chaos Slaaneshi Warriors/Marauders.

They’d certainly work as Marauders with extra hand weapons if that’s an option, or if not, given that the kit also makes Sisters of Slaughter you could use the Sisters’ weapons to represent Marauder flails to give them Strength 4 in the first turn of combat.

I was reading a PDF copy of the old 6th Edition Storm of Chaos book recently, and among other lists it included a roster for a Cult of Slaanesh army which allows you to take Mark of Slaanesh Hordes of Chaos and Dark Elves units in the same list. I can just imagine if that had been usable in 8th Edition with WoC and Dark Elves you’d be at the front of the queue to play it, as our resident Slaanesh fan

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Troll toll

I can just see that becoming a meme in this thread

I’m enjoying seeing the Trolls do well here, because in Fantasy communities Trolls are talked about so little (at least in the Greenskin groups), so it’s nice to see them get some time in the sun (as long as it doesn’t turn them to stone ). Of course you do need to babysit them with your general if you do take them to avoid Stupidity rendering them useless, and that’s not always guaranteed if you play Dawn Attack

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I was reading a PDF copy of the old 6th Edition Storm of Chaos book recently, and among other lists it included a roster for a Cult of Slaanesh army which allows you to take Mark of Slaanesh Hordes of Chaos and Dark Elves units in the same list. I can just imagine if that had been usable in 8th Edition with WoC and Dark Elves you’d be at the front of the queue to play it, as our resident Slaanesh fan

I remember that cult of Slaanesh. Even today, the remnants of it exist. Check out the Doomfire Warlocks fluff in the 8th edition Dark Elves army book.

For the record, Tzeentch is my favourite, followed by Slaanesh. Tzeentch>Slaanesh>Khorne>Nurgle.

It's a shame though that the magic lore of Tzeentch is not to my taste in 8th edition. In every single edition, Slaanesh's magic lore has been the more tactical and interesting one, and Tzeentch's has been a straight forward damage dealer.

Troll toll

I can just see that becoming a meme in this thread

I can't take credit for that one. I heard it on the Turin YouTube channel. Lots of great Total War: Warhammer content to be found there.

I’m enjoying seeing the Trolls do well here, because in Fantasy communities Trolls are talked about so little (at least in the Greenskin groups), so it’s nice to see them get some time in the sun (as long as it doesn’t turn them to stone ).

They are a bit of a unique entry on this list. I too am happy to see them doing so well.

Of course you do need to babysit them with your general if you do take them to avoid Stupidity rendering them useless, and that’s not always guaranteed if you play Dawn Attack

Luckily, WoC have Throgg for that, and his 18" leadership bubble! With two leadership bubbles on the field, it is easier to keep them on task. You are completely correct though, with a leadership boost, they become essentially worthless.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

If the K'daai Destroyer makes anything less then a Massive Victory the Witch Elves are back at the top again

The challenge has been cast and a Destroyer comes to meet it... K'daai Destroyer vs. Soul Grinder

Key rules in play:

• K'daai Destroyer: Unstable, Unbreakable, Bound Fire Daemon, Blazing Body, Frenzy (D3)
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour 4+, Daemonbone Claw

A massive victory for the K'daai Destroyer, but one which was extremely hard fought. The Soul Grinder presents some very obvious challenges for the K'daai. The Soul Grinder has:

• its DoN special rule making it -1 to hit
• T7 to match the Destroyer's S7
• a 5+ ward save
• magical attacks (therefore its successful wounds do not need to be re-rolled)
• S10 via its Daemonbone special attack (which also causes D6 wounds)

Ultimately though, the Destroyer, with its superior Ward Save and impressive number of attacks is able to out wound its counterpart and win combat by 1 (barely). This means that the Soul Grinder loses an additional wound each round due to its Daemonic Instability.


The obvious elephant is in the room is the points disparity. The Destroyer costs 65 points more, which is quite significant. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about this. It's something everyone will have to consider for themselves when considering this matchup. In favour of the matchup decision is that the K'daai Destoryer should prevail against two Soul Grinders one after another (but not two at once), so the result, while imperfect, seems at least justified.

And with that the Destroyer reclaims its top spot over the Witch Elves. At least for now...



This also marks the half way point of round #5!

Thoughts? Comments? Discuss!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Fun fact!

Of the 16 competitors, only 5 have managed to avoid taking a massive loss:

• Skullcrushers
• K'daai Destroyer
• Chaos Warriors
• Witch Elves
• Savage Orcs

Is it down to the strength of their schedule up until this point, or can they continue to maintain their record without taking a BIG L?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The challenge has been cast and a Destroyer comes to meet it... K'daai Destroyer vs. Soul Grinder

Key rules in play:

• K'daai Destroyer: Unstable, Unbreakable, Bound Fire Daemon, Blazing Body, Frenzy (D3)
• Soul Grinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Caught by the Iron Claw, Natural Armour 4+, Daemonbone Claw

View attachment 82042
View attachment 82043


A massive victory for the K'daai Destroyer, but one which was extremely hard fought. The Soul Grinder presents some very obvious challenges for the K'daai. The Soul Grinder has:

• its DoN special rule making it -1 to hit
• T7 to match the Destroyer's S7
• a 5+ ward save
• magical attacks (therefore its successful wounds do not need to be re-rolled)
• S10 via its Daemonbone special attack (which also causes D6 wounds)

Ultimately though, the Destroyer, with its superior Ward Save and impressive number of attacks is able to out wound its counterpart and win combat by 1 (barely). This means that the Soul Grinder loses an additional wound each round due to its Daemonic Instability.


The obvious elephant is in the room is the points disparity. The Destroyer costs 65 points more, which is quite significant. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about this. It's something everyone will have to consider for themselves when considering this matchup. In favour of the matchup decision is that the K'daai Destoryer should prevail against two Soul Grinders one after another (but not two at once), so the result, while imperfect, seems at least justified.

And with that the Destroyer reclaims its top spot over the Witch Elves. At least for now...

View attachment 82044

This also marks the half way point of round #5!

Thoughts? Comments? Discuss!

Funny that this was close, I was visualizing it being a whitewash...

But I should have remembered that the Soul Grinder is pretty fearsome in its own right and especially dangerous the multiple wound enemies with the daemonbone claw, etc.

I think, even with the 65 points disparity, it's still an accurate representation of the models. OT make it perfectly even would be 4 Soul Grinders versus 3 Destroyers which the Soul Grinders would probably win, but the likelihood of this kind of a match-up EVER happening is so remote that it's laughable. So I think the best man won in this case.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Funny that this was close, I was visualizing it being a whitewash...

But I should have remembered that the Soul Grinder is pretty fearsome in its own right and especially dangerous the multiple wound enemies with the daemonbone claw, etc.

The scary part is that the Soul Grinder, as you suggest, is a bit of a specialist against multi-wound models (especially single entities)... and it still lost! The K'daai Destroyer is much more of a generalist, it has the right combination of attacks and special rules to do equally well against hordes of single wound models, multi-wound models and single entities.

The Chaos Dwarfs really know how to build a monster!

OT make it perfectly even would be 4 Soul Grinders versus 3 Destroyers which the Soul Grinders would probably win, but the likelihood of this kind of a match-up EVER happening is so remote that it's laughable.

3 K'daai Destroyer = 3X325points = 975points
4 Soul Grinders = 4x260points = 1040points


If the aim was to fully balance the points we'd need to set up 4 K'daai Destroyers versus 5 Soul Grinders.

4 K'daai Destroyer = 4X325points = 1300points
5 Soul Grinders = 5x260points = 1300points

Of course such a scenario is unrealistic in real game terms, but for the sake of argument we can extrapolate:

If we multiply the K'daai's attack output (unsaved wounds inflicted) by 4 we arrive at 1.4X4 = 5.6. We then multiply the Soul Grinder's attack output by 5 and we arrive at 0.9X5 = 4.5.

So the Destroyer would maintain the offensive advantage (5.6 wounds caused versus 4.5 wounds), but the Soul Grinders would enter the fray with a pool of 30 wounds to the K'daai's 24. That said, the K'daai would have a huge advantage of striking first. We'd have to assume that all the K'daai could not focus down and attack a single Soul Grinder (due to not being in base to base), or this contest would be over before it started. Even still, that offensive advantage of 5.6 vs. 4.5 wounds inflicted is enough to win combat by 1. Meaning that ALL five of the Soul Grinders would have to take a Daemonic Instability test and on average each and every Soul Grinder would lose an additional wound. That right there would give the Destroyers the victory.

 

[Killer Angel]

The Chaos Dwarfs really know how to build a monster!

well, that's certainly a fluffy way to see the excessive power granted to the K'daii model...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Let us continue with round 5 with another matchup. Chaos Warriors vs. White Lions of Chrace

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: MoN
• White Lions: Stubborn, Martial Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

A scrappy victory for the Chaos Warriors. The Mark of Nurgle and 2 attacks of piece from the front line seemed to be the key difference makers. Also, the White Lions enter the fray essentially 50 points short due to their Banner of the World Dragon having zero impact.

The Chaos Warriors really needed that win, as they have been struggling in the competition. They now have 2 victories and 3 losses. However, the White Lions still enjoy a 1 point lead over them in the overall standings.



A satisfying contest for all the White Lion haters?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

well, that's certainly a fluffy way to see the excessive power granted to the K'daii model...

I think that excessive power is balanced out by some very important built-in weaknesses. Firstly, it has the Frenzy special rule, so it can be baited and have its movement controlled. Secondly, and more importantly, all of its attacks (other than thunderstomp) has the Flaming Attacks special rule. That means that any non-stompable character with a Dragonbane Gem or Dragonhelm can completely neutralize it. Even a simple Skink Chief on a Terradon with a 5 point magic item will have a 2+ ward save against it!

As a result, there is a vocal percentage of the Chaos Dwarf players that actually claim that in-game (against a skilled opponent) the K'daai Destroyer isn't that great of a selection. They acknowledge that against a weak opponent the Destroyer carry the game on its shoulders, but skilled players can neutralize it. For the record, I am not of that belief. I think it is a very solid selection (one of the best in the CD roster) and it is up to the CD general to ensure that his opponent can't get his Dragonbane Gem / Dragonhelm characters into it.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Let us continue with round 5 with another matchup. Chaos Warriors vs. White Lions of Chrace

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: MoN
• White Lions: Stubborn, Martial Prowess, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

View attachment 82066


A scrappy victory for the Chaos Warriors. The Mark of Nurgle and 2 attacks of piece from the front line seemed to be the key difference makers. Also, the White Lions enter the fray essentially 50 points short due to their Banner of the World Dragon having zero impact.

The Chaos Warriors really needed that win, as they have been struggling in the competition. They now have 2 victories and 3 losses. However, the White Lions still enjoy a 1 point lead over them in the overall standings.

View attachment 82065

A satisfying contest for all the White Lion haters?

Not really.

I need to see them stomped into the ground if I'm honest.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Not really.

I need to see them stomped into the ground if I'm honest.

Well the K'daai Destroyer did thunderstomp them into the ground for you!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Well the K'daai Destroyer did thunderstomp them into the ground for you!

Unfortunately, I'd like to see them at the bottom of the table but despite my dislike of them they are a fearsome opponent and will definitely be on the upper level of the final table...