8th Ed. New Lizardman army book and info

[jgascoine011]

From what I can see it seems like the Cold One Cav are really the outliers in the points costs.

Most everything else seems good: Kroxigor with S5 and small drop in points are great. The Bastiladon seems appropriately priced in points. Different Stegadons seem about right to me. Temple Guard are lowered to where they should be. Salamanders and Razordons seem to be about right. The Troglodon seems a little high but it could play out to be appropriate. Ripperdactyls seem about right in points to me. Terradons didn't need to be increased but the increase is reasonably low.

15ss for 4x s4 attacks with PF (on just the rider's attacks it sounds) on models with stupidity and a 2+ isn't very good, What's sad is that it is still an improvement over what we had, just not by much.

Kroxigor just seem like a much more attractive option compared to CoC. The big thing I think we can be excited over is that we actually have options.

Ok lets break this down.
1) Kroxigor:
S5 is good. Your opponent being able to target them in combat is terrible.
I think some1 said about 5 khorne knights charging 4 krox the krox would win. Actually the khorne knights win, but who plays khrone knights? every1 jsut takes skull crushers which will trample over such a unit.
So krox got hit so hard with being able to target them in a skink unit
Btw no1 every played krox without skinks which is why i am looking at skrox units.

2) Bastilladon
Yes its points are appropriate seeing as its useless.
I dont get what this thing is supposed to do. If its solar engine wasnt a bound spell it might not have been too bad but as it stands it doesnt do anything. And never take the swamp producing one. What a fail in rules that thing is.

3) Temple guard i agree are where they should be.

4) Salamanders i actually think got a boost as they are now better Low armour horde killers (skaven slaves for example).

5) The troglodon has 1 purpose. to scream. So you are paying 200 points for a one use thing.
Jesus how much do GW want to screw over lizardmen. Again this thing is completley useless.

6) Ripperdactyls.
Ok can some1 please explain these guys to me. What are they supposed to do?
They are geared for combat but then wont survive long enough to be good in combat. Maybe as flank charges but with frenzy and LD5. they will be getting redirected all over the place.


On a hole i think entire lizardmen lists will change.
I expect to see lists like:
Lords
Slaan.

Heros
Skink priest with dispel scroll on engine
Skink priest with cube of darkness

Core
1 or 2 blocks of saurus and then skink skirmishers for min core.

Special
Temple guard
2 units of 3 terradactyls
Chamelion skinks

Rare
salamanders and maybe another engine of the gods


Oh wait. This is exactly what lizardmen played before.
So why the F*ck bring out a new book GW

think some one got out on the wrong side of the bed i think you have taken ony the negative out of this rumors and alot of the units u have slagged off are proberly better than u make out.

the troglodon has an acid attack and a skink on top that can channel and used to fire direct damage and missiles

the basiladons solar engine is statick plus 1 int witha s5 template.

all in all yes the new book proberly is no OP but thats a good thing right ?

Ok please tell me what is good out of this book
And can please stop mentioning stupid things and saying that it is good, e.g. the trogladons acid spit. its 1 shot at S5 which does D3 wounds. And wow, you can pay points to have some guy channel, that is really amazing. I mean a 1 in 6 chance to get 1 extra power or dispel dice, yea i do have to admit that really is wort the points.

As for the bastilladon
Beam of Chotex is a bound spell 3 range 24 - roll a D6 1 D3 S3 hits, 2-3 D6S4 4-5 2D6 S5 roll a 6 2D6 S6 & -1WS & BS till next magic phase. +1 init to all cold blooded units within 6".
Thats its rules.
Yea its beam is not too bad. if it wasnt a frigging bound spell.


I dont care if the book is OP or not. Hell it could be down there with tomb kings for all i care. Just dont make us pay £30 for a book when you havent changed a god damn thing.
It seriously wasnt hard to make a decent book for lizardmen.
They fixed the slaan and salamanders so all the had to do was put in the bastilladon. Make it T6 with a 1+ armour and S5 with 6 wounds.
Put in some monstrous cav and fix cold ones and you were done. Simple. Hell if they did that i wouldnt even mind them not buffing the cany.
Hell if they made just 1 of the new units playable and didnt severely nerf the skrox i wouldnt even mind the no monstrous cav.

 

[Tetengo]

What's good in the new book:

Saurus still good (PF pursuit is stupid but not that much trouble), even better if you want to use spears
TG are still good
Chameleon skinks still amazing
Terradons are still pretty good, only a slight price hike and can have flaming S4 attacks for a point
The Slann is still a good magic user, even if not amazing
Our hero slot characters are even better now
Salamanders are still powerful
Stegadons are even better now.
Skink skirmishes are still great chaff

Wait a minute......

 

[Darius the Insane]

@jgascoine011

Seriously mate, you don't even play lizards so stop having a whinge about it. I for one will reserve judgement until I have read the book cover to cover and then thrashed out a few games.

Next time a book is due for an update perhaps you should petition GW to let you write it, you are after all the most knowledgeable among us, what with all your infinite wisdom. I'm sure you could write it in your sleep

 

[Animaux]

Ok please tell me what is good out of this book
And can please stop mentioning stupid things and saying that it is good, e.g. the trogladons acid spit. its 1 shot at S5 which does D3 wounds. And wow, you can pay points to have some guy channel, that is really amazing. I mean a 1 in 6 chance to get 1 extra power or dispel dice, yea i do have to admit that really is wort the points.

As for the bastilladon
Beam of Chotex is a bound spell 3 range 24 - roll a D6 1 D3 S3 hits, 2-3 D6S4 4-5 2D6 S5 roll a 6 2D6 S6 & -1WS & BS till next magic phase. +1 init to all cold blooded units within 6".
Thats its rules.
Yea its beam is not too bad. if it wasnt a frigging bound spell.


I dont care if the book is OP or not. Hell it could be down there with tomb kings for all i care. Just dont make us pay £30 for a book when you havent changed a god damn thing.
It seriously wasnt hard to make a decent book for lizardmen.
They fixed the slaan and salamanders so all the had to do was put in the bastilladon. Make it T6 with a 1+ armour and S5 with 6 wounds.
Put in some monstrous cav and fix cold ones and you were done. Simple. Hell if they did that i wouldnt even mind them not buffing the cany.
Hell if they made just 1 of the new units playable and didnt severely nerf the skrox i wouldnt even mind the no monstrous cav.

we did get monstrous calvary in the form of ripperdactyls i think ethse are good for our army because or normal monsters etc would not benift from carno cav although we all want this, but the rippers can take out war machines (cannons etc) allowing us to take a few of our monsters and expect them to live.

the basialladon looks good for its points cost and as stated

I'm going out on a limb to say I think the Bastilodons and stegs will be great. The Bast is crazy cheap for a monster, and has a 2+ save, if you combine that with a life Slann that can put wounds back on it from the lore attribute that thing could hold up enemy units for ages.

it would need to be 250ish points for the t6 1+ save etc the low points cost means we can take 1 and other special choices

weather or not it can compete for the special choice is yet to be seen we look heavy here.

the nerf of the skrox actually goes back to how they were written origionally in the 7th edition book yet as awhole the unit came down in points and gained s5 on the krox, now they play differently (propberly how they were intended) they still seem to be our better unit vs monsters such as terrorghasts

all in all id say 2 of the new units playable the sarus appear to have got better, the swarms may now be playable, the slann and salamanders look more balanced some even think the sallies are better for what we use them for.
i agree with you on the CoC but then ive never seen them as truely playable and the new models for them suck anyway so glad for this.

all in all the book looks ok imo

 

[Spiney Norman]

SOOOOO much QQ about this new book. Just wait and see what happens FFS, its amazing some of you get out of bed in the morning!!! such doom and gloom.

The only bloke that I can see who has actually read the book on this forum has said that he is pretty happy and he can see a lot of different lists being used here!!

Thats what we want isnt it, the ability to use an army to beat an enemy in many different ways.

It will take some adjusting, all change does. Dont rubbish it just because its different and you dont understand it.

Just wait another 24 hours and lets see what happens.

I'm getting completely the opposite picture, so many units that were already poor to average have gotten worse or more expensive (Saurus, Skrox, Carnosaur) that I'm getting a picture of a very narrow competitive build. The core section is horrible now, there are no strong choices in it other than skink Skirmishers, and I really don't want to see a return to the 6th edition points denial lists where that was the only core unit that LM players brought.

 

[jgascoine011]

What's good in the new book:

Saurus still good (PF pursuit is stupid but not that much trouble), even better if you want to use spears
TG are still good
Chameleon skinks still amazing
Terradons are still pretty good, only a slight price hike and can have flaming S4 attacks for a point
The Slann is still a good magic user, even if not amazing
Our hero slot characters are even better now
Salamanders are still powerful
Stegadons are even better now.
Skink skirmishes are still great chaff

Wait a minute......

Thank you
Some one who agrees with me. All the lists will stay the same as none of the new things are any good. Even in your list of things that are good you didnt mention one of the new units.

 

[Chunk]

The core section is horrible now, there are no strong choices in it other than skink Skirmishers, and I really don't want to see a return to the 6th edition points denial lists where that was the only core unit that LM players brought.

Saurus aren't stronger now? Same points, free spears, better in close combat due to extra attacks, and a downside that is so unlikely to occur that it's barely a downside?

I mean, that's not even getting into the synergies between them and Bastiladons, High-Magic Slann, Jungle Swarms, Troglodons...

I've seen you say the same thing on Warseer (assuming that you're Spiney Norman there too), and I have to ask, how often do you really think you'll suffer from the negative side of Predatory Fighter?

 

[Spiney Norman]

we did get monstrous calvary in the form of ripperdactyls i think ethse are good for our army because or normal monsters etc would not benift from carno cav although we all want this, but the rippers can take out war machines (cannons etc) allowing us to take a few of our monsters and expect them to live.

Did anyone mention you are doing a really lousy job of defending the book? Ripperdactyls are a joke unit, a frenzied unit with Ld 5 is a non-choice. All your opponent has to do is park a unit 22" away, watch them be forced to declare an almost impossible charge, then fill them full of holes when the end up out of position. Against a decent opponent it will be nearly impossible to use this unit well. Given their stats the only thing they will really be able to take on will be warmachine crews, but their frenzy and low Ld means you will almost never be able to charge the target you want to charge.

I'm going out on a limb to say I think the Bastilodons and stegs will be great. The Bast is crazy cheap for a monster, and has a 2+ save, if you combine that with a life Slann that can put wounds back on it from the lore attribute that thing could hold up enemy units for ages.

weather or not it can compete for the special choice is yet to be seen we look heavy here.

Hardly, there are what 2-3 viable units in special? Terradons went up on points for no gain and they weren't that good last edition. Chameleon skinks will still be in because of their ability to take out enemy warmachines, Saurus cavalry are a total flop for another edition, and while Kroxigor will be better off fielded as a stand alone unit now as their protection for being in a skink unit is gone they're still not really good enough to compete for the slot.

As far as special slots go the only real contenders in special are the Bastilodon, Stegadon, chameleons and possibly jungle swarms as they are cheaper and have fair utility with granting poisoned attacks to other units.

Even with stegadons you're going to fill up your rare slots with ancient stegs first because they are much better for a by small increase. Rare seems to be where we will be struggling for points because Salamanders and ancient stegs are probably the best two units in the book.

all in all id say 2 of the new units playable the sarus appear to have got better, the swarms may now be playable, the slann and salamanders look more balanced some even think the sallies are better for what we use them for.

all in all the book looks ok imo

All in all Saurus actually got significantly more expensive because you have to bring a skink character to babysit the unit for them to even be usable. Even bringing a cheap skink chief is going to boost the cost of the unit by 40pts, and he's going to be a priority target for anyone who knows how the PF rule works.

Chunk, you clearly don't use frenzied much units do you? Savage Orcs are very hard to use for exactly the same reason, if an opponent places his units right he can almost guarantee charging a forced-overrun unit from 2-3 sides after it breaks its first opponent.

Skink characters are a must to babysit Saurus now, and since I didn't used to bring any skink characters that's quite a tax on the unit.

 

[Arli]

What it boils down to in my opinion is that if you do not like them, do not play them.

Until we have the book in hand, some of this could be wrong. There are always people who will nay say or complain about changes to any army. It comes with the territory.

We should get a better idea of what is actually going on today or tomorrow.

 

[Chunk]

Chunk, you clearly don't use frenzied much units do you? Savage Orcs are very hard to use for exactly the same reason, if an opponent places his units right he can almost guarantee charging a forced-overrun unit from 2-3 sides after it breaks its first opponent.

But in this instance it's not a forced overrun, it's a forced pursuit, and I think that makes them very different beasts. It's easy to throw a cheap and weak unit into the front of a Savage Orc mob in order to make it overrun into a trap. I think our opponents will find it far harder to force us to pursue units, since they'd need to judge how tough and how big their unit needs to be in order to take enough damage to not be steadfast, lose the combat, and lose it by enough to be likely to run, and not be completely destroyed by the Saurus.

But, as with everything, time will tell.

 

[Malebranche]

And those skink characters will cut into the hero budget quite a bit.

I was pretty optimistic at first.

Still hoping there's a whole bunch of special rules that fix everything that sense to have been messed up, but it's not looking good. I'll wait for the book before forming an opinion but so far it's not looking good. I don't need is to be the most powerful army, but I like being able to run a fun list without being forced to take units I don't want so the units I do want can actually do their jobs.

 

[stormtruperTK41]

Can anyone also confirm about the Bastiladon tail attack? Is it S10, any multiple wounds, and is it rear/flanks only?

Not sure if someone answered you on this yet but you nominate on of the attacks to be the tail attack and it hits at S10. It does not get multiwound (which is kind of dumb I think) but it does not have to be in the rear. IF it IS in the rear then that one attack gets +1 to hit. And as suspected there is no rear or flank for a bastiladon.

 

[feluca]

Wow, I did not know what kind of spells there are in High Magic, some of them are extremely usefull I think! Removing Hexes and Augments sounds really good, buffing up WS is really helpful for Saurus Warriors, and if you don't think a spell fits your needs, just swap it using the lore attribute..! The Slann just got an amazing buff, I dare to say they will become one of the most versital casters in the game. I think people overlook how good it can be to switch spells, but time will tell..

I think I understand why so many people are raging about the new armybook right now, Lizardmen was quite an easy army to play: you had the most powerful caster, very resiliant Core units, tough characters and so on. I think that with this armybook you need a bit more finesse and put some thought into your army lists, rather than picking the strongest units and go with it.

 

[Pofadder]

I suppose a lot of these rumors may be wrong? But there are some serious issues that have been confirmed as well, like skink Ld5...

Firstly I am not negative I will be playing with my LM and no other army, As I have mentioned probably 50 pages ago, the direction GW took was promising some new special rules for saurus and other monsters etc(PF). That seems awesome forced pusuit less so We can and will have to cope with that. But imho it was a bad decision to "tax" our new special rule for what, a 16% chance to get an extra attack. Now on other forums I have seen people defend it by saying saurus is arguably the best core in the game, while they are good I would not compare them to chaos warriors etc, and seriously WS3 and I1 makes a huge difference to how good they are.

Basti, underwhelming statline, torg is bad I have to agree there, Rippers as stated at Ld5 with frenzy an good opponent will use that against us.

Carni...I am miffed they did such lazy redesign on a new centrepiece model.

Bottomline is I will read the new book and play my LM... It seems bad atm, but we will see. I do not mind if my army builds would be the same though viable variety would been awesome...

 

[Animaux]

Spiney Norman

yur clearly set in your mind set

frenzy ld 5 or ld9 with reroll with ur slann bsb nuff said

 

[Reddogfish]

I find it quite hilarious that I have thought of how to use Skrox when I dont even really play lizardmen but everyone in here just sees how they can be pasted...



sorry just wanted to use a smiley...

So where in the book does it say Krox have to be in the second rank... no where... because they can be placed in the front rank. if you expect to face low S and T troops prob running them in the front would be best use...

But anything other than that... and why not run them in the third rank.

Think about it.

Your opponent charges in his.... bloodcrushers... bloodknights.... insert silly blood name here....
in and can only target the skinks cause they are all they can reach.

After wiping out a rank or more of crap troops your krox are moved forward... not illegally... but because of the step up rule and the idea it is not actually models from the rear that die... that is simply how they are taken for convience...

So now you have not lost any krox... and you get to swing with full attacks and also the skink attacks.

bam..... prob solved... any unit that is unlikely to wipe out a rank of skinks... should not really warrant fear from a krox and therefore you can simply reform to move them forward.

With pred fighter krox could do some serious damage to something in this way...

So.... how good am i.... lol.

 

[Stormfrog]

Right, here are my two cents if anyone cares enough to read them...

I have not actually read the new book, and I must say that all of what i'v read here and on warseer falls a little short of my hopes. But there you are. I am of the opinion that rather then bitch and moan about the content, we should rather sit back and say to ourselves "Right, this is what we have to work with. How do we make this good?". I mean really, have you seen the Wood Elf forums? They absolutely love their army, despite it being the weakest in current edition. Despite the failings of the new book, we will still be a far shot from weak, so how about a little constructive ideas instead of good old fashioned moaning? I have girlfriend for that, don't need it on my favorite forum.

My biggest confusion is the hatred people have for Ripperdactyls. Why, oh why? Oh, they are frenzied fliers with low leadership, is that it? Aye, I can definately see the issue. Or rather, what would be the issue if they were unable to, you know, FLY! Moonwalk them! Seriously, there is another relativly new book out there who recived their new frenzied, flying monsterous infantry with low leadership (And not cold blooded, mind) not to long ago, and they LOVE them. If they can come to love theirs, can't we atleast like ours? In my mind, they are excellent war machine hunters, and quite good bunker killers as well. Pop the toad in whatever Zombie, Skaven slave, goblin, Skeleton archer, horror block of 20 the enemy caster is hiding in and munch away. With streangth 4, armor piercing, D3+1 attacks and re-roll to hit, these guys are great at this duty.

The Slaan lost power, but gained in versatility. We can now either choose to have all eight signatures (Tried templeguard with wyssans, earthblood and using the razor banner. Do it) or we can have all 8 spells of high magic and switch them around to our hearts content to match ANY situation! I quite like him as printed so far.

Saying saurus got worse is also six shades of silly. They are just the same as before. But can generate attacks on 6's. And free spears. Sorry, where was the bad part? You mean this little here added frenzy clause that might just happen once a century? I dont know about you, but I was going to sport atleast 2 skink priests in my lists anyway, so what do I mind if they are actually even more usefull.

Skink skirmishers are fine. More than fine. Fantastic. Last weekend I went to a tournament and spoke quite a bit to one of Swedens leading players. He was playing lizardmen during this tourney and was of the opinion that skink skirmishers are just broken. Faaaar to good he said. Guess what? We still have them!

Skroxes did take a hit by allowing the kroxigors to get beaten up, this is true. Thats just a nerf, plain and simple. No need to dress it up. Just live with it and work around it.

Cold ones was a rather odd choice by GW. Quite a few stupid rule setups here. But in the end, are they better than before? Lost magic banners, thats sad. Gained a str 4 attack and dropped a point. Nice synergy with horn of kygor. Also gained predatory fighter. Not as much a buff as i might have wanted. Still better than before!

Stegadons got better across the board. EoTG got better in my opinion. Cheaper to. And the D3 wound impact hits just makes me giggle every time i imagine him charging anything with more than 1 wound.

Salamanders got, in my opinion, a little better. Lost march and shoot, gained a point in streangth. If elves bitched about them before....

and so on and so on. Stop comparing the book with the one you dreamed about, and just compare it to the last book we have. Then draw conclusions. A better book is still a better book. Answer me this: Add upp all the changes made to units that were around in the old book. When added up, are they on the whole, positive changes? I think so.

Yes, we have a few things in the book that makes me wonder what GW were thinking. The Bastiladon and Troglodon come to mind. Even if I only cared about the money, i'd make damn sure I made all the new stuff fantastic (See Terrorgheists). So I must say that was odd. But this is what we have to work with. Period. Moaning on the internet wont make the Troglodon better. So lets man up (Or lizard up), and go beat the shit out of the opposition cold-blood style, just like we allways have!

PS. Sorry for getting a little bit preachy, not to mention sarcastic.

 

[forlustria]

I find it quite hilarious that I have thought of how to use Skrox when I dont even really play lizardmen but everyone in here just sees how they can be pasted...



sorry just wanted to use a smiley...

So where in the book does it say Krox have to be in the second rank... no where... because they can be placed in the front rank. if you expect to face low S and T troops prob running them in the front would be best use...

But anything other than that... and why not run them in the third rank.

Think about it.

Your opponent charges in his.... bloodcrushers... bloodknights.... insert silly blood name here....
in and can only target the skinks cause they are all they can reach.

After wiping out a rank or more of crap troops your krox are moved forward... not illegally... but because of the step up rule and the idea it is not actually models from the rear that die... that is simply how they are taken for convience...

So now you have not lost any krox... and you get to swing with full attacks and also the skink attacks.

bam..... prob solved... any unit that is unlikely to wipe out a rank of skinks... should not really warrant fear from a krox and therefore you can simply reform to move them forward.

With pred fighter krox could do some serious damage to something in this way...

So.... how good am i.... lol.

its an interesting idea butdo we know for sure it doesn't say second rank like the current book

 

[Spiney Norman]

Chunk, you clearly don't use frenzied much units do you? Savage Orcs are very hard to use for exactly the same reason, if an opponent places his units right he can almost guarantee charging a forced-overrun unit from 2-3 sides after it breaks its first opponent.

But in this instance it's not a forced overrun, it's a forced pursuit, and I think that makes them very different beasts. It's easy to throw a cheap and weak unit into the front of a Savage Orc mob in order to make it overrun into a trap. I think our opponents will find it far harder to force us to pursue units, since they'd need to judge how tough and how big their unit needs to be in order to take enough damage to not be steadfast, lose the combat, and lose it by enough to be likely to run, and not be completely destroyed by the Saurus.

But, as with everything, time will tell.

Not at all, forced overrun would only come into effect of the Saurus totally wiped out their opponent, which will hardly ever happen (Saurus are not that good in combat), its more likely that the Saurus will bak their opponents and run into a trap, getting mowed down in the next turn. Every Saurus unit is going to need its own personal skink minder now, and that is going to eat up points fast. What predatory fighter does is it adds 40pts+ to the cost of the unit and gives you a couple of extra attacks per round on a Saurus unit (less on anything else). Not to mention that if the skink character dies your unit is totally screwed from that point on.

Chaff is much less of an issue for Lizardmen than it is for O&G anyway because LM have very good chaff ourselves.

 

[SeBM]

Hi everyone,

I've been out of the Lizardmen picture for quite a while now, as I've been playing ogres since november or so. I was really looking forward to picking up my Lizards when I learned that the new book was coming...

Then the pictures came... Some models I like, others I find meeeh. So I went to very excited to just happy to have a new book coming and hopefully, more variety then before and more viable army builds. I was set upon preordering the new book but a little voice in my mind told me to wait a bit more...

The the rule rumors came... I'll be honest, I'm glad I didn't preorder. The models were meeeh, the rules seems to be mostly meeeh. So even though I don't think they've completly destroyed Lizards, there is actually nothing I want to buy now. NOTHING, nada, niet. I already have a Stegadon, a Slann, 40 Saurus, 24 skinks, 16 SCoC, 1 Scar-Veteran, a Skink Chief, 2 Skink Priest, 1 Salamander, 20 TG... Heck, I don't even see the point of getting the new book, since there is nothing I want that's in it and I seriously doubt I'll be playing LM anymore.

And if you've read my post, it's not mainly about the rules, it's about the fact that GW managed to release a new army book with new models and make almost everything new undesirable. The 2 things I really like, Skink High Priest and Tetto'Eko, I either don't need since I already own or won't pay 60$ for a single Finecast model.

Is the book terrible? Hard to say as of now, probably not, maybe it's even good. Did GW, in my view, fail to reproduce the kind of book they managed with HE with the new Lizards? IMHO they did and that's what's the most disappointing.

If anyone is interested with the models I listed, PM me, I'll be selling those Lizards to make some room for more Ogres and more Dark Angels.