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7th Ed. lizardmen in 8ed, what do you think?

if the rules states that it fights with two ranks then it will firght with two ranks, if the rule says you get addtional supporting attacks than yes you fight with one A, i beg that it would be the first option
 
I believe that models in the front rank fight with their full number of attacks but models in 2nd, 3rd, etc, fight with a max of 1 attack each. The exception to this is "monstrous infantry" in which the second rank may fight with up to 3 attacks each.

So for example a unit of 20 spear Saurus (4 ranks of 5) would have a total of 20 attacks (21 with champ). While a unit of say 50 (5 ranks of 10) Saurus would have 50 (51) attacks (horde bonus).
 
I'm hoping Heelan is right, saurus would then be formidable, especially if buffed by a lone slann's magic (ws, I 10!!). If salamanders can fire every turn then they will be brutal to the large blocks. I'd certainly consider 6 of them in 2000+ games. We'll see how Krox fare, along with big/small skink blocks and skrox units. Skirmishers should be less flexible, but enjoy the blowpipes rules. Scar Vets might be best employed on foot, and could benefit hugely from common items (heavy armour, ward saves and things that improve initiative/ASF - it would, however, be very sad if they could not take heavy armour items).

I think lone slann, salamanders, big saurus units and small blowpipe (possibly terradon units) might be the way for me to go.
 
Dumbledore said:
I'm hoping Heelan is right, saurus would then be formidable, especially if buffed by a lone slann's magic (ws, I 10!!). If salamanders can fire every turn then they will be brutal to the large blocks. I'd certainly consider 6 of them in 2000+ games. We'll see how Krox fare, along with big/small skink blocks and skrox units. Skirmishers should be less flexible, but enjoy the blowpipes rules. Scar Vets might be best employed on foot, and could benefit hugely from common items (heavy armour, ward saves and things that improve initiative/ASF - it would, however, be very sad if they could not take heavy armour items).

I think lone slann, salamanders, big saurus units and small blowpipe (possibly terradon units) might be the way for me to go.
Click to expand...

Of course salamanders can fire every turn, they are not considered breath weapons. We dodged a bullet there though, as in 7th everyone wanted them to be breath weapons so we could march and shoot.
 
I am rather inclined to believe Heelan since he was rather specificaly looking for that rule,
and he only plays Lizardmen.
 
I wouldnt be so sure of my opinion on that, someone I know who has access to the book says he thinks "fight in ranks" is a rule which states they provide "supporting attacks"... so would be 1A - I defo gonna look this up next time I have the book in hand!

On the army as a whole, I dunno what to make of it so far. Slann looks great, miscast table aside. We probably have the best caster for avoiding worrying to much about miscast tables (cupped if you are really worried). Things like krox striking last though I think its a sad thing, recently I have been loving the skrox but because they kill stuff before it strikes back.... however a 307 (IIRC) point 3 skrox unit, 10 skinks wide (24 total) might be pretty handy as a big anvil that also provides hitting.

Ive been trying to scribble a few lists today on the basis of 2250/2000 points and found it hard work to fit in big units of things without making the army tiny. Thats my main problem with it, my sucess with the army as a general has always been derived from being able to dictate the combats I want to fight, that is so so so much harder in the new game with the free reform moves etc and I am not sure it we can cut it toe to toe with some of the elf stuff out there (cite dark elves + caludron!)

Lots of play needed I thnk to work out the way forward!

D
 
I just checked it today Dan, an hour after making that post. Spears gives "fight in extra rank" which is actually a special rule. The rule means you get an extra rank of supporting attacks (A 1 max) and these extra supporting attacks are not given on the charge (as before).

DE and LM are my two armies (I posted my DE painting on your forum Dan, as well as partially here ^^). It looks like hotek will cause miscasts without irresistibles from the wording of the new BRB. Not to mention the power of POD being even more valuable now. (and ASF executioners working!).

Last month I was speaking at length with the USA ETC captain (cracking fellow - I hope you get to play him). He mentioned that in the past he had great success with a lone slann + multiple 18-strong saurus units (in comped events). I'm thinking maybe something similar might be viable. Solo slann (not sure what lore) + two or three big combat spearblocks supported by skinks and salamanders (possibly also terradons/krox depending on their viability). You joked in your latest podcast that you'll just have to deploy deeper now, but that really might be viable with a lot less terror and BSB re-rolls + cold blooded 9. Spears will die to WoC and executioners or BG, but they sure can grind. There may also be great synergy with magic, not to mention that our shooting is more potent (even though there is less time before the armies hit each other)

The new magic items may make Vets very formidable. We might have access to some juicy ward saves! A friend mentioned one that was heavy armour, but one thing I fear (pure speculation) is that you may need to be able to equip an item type to take a magic equivalent (ie light armour only for the LM). If we can take heavy armour we should be very happy, as some of those items sound positively sexual.

The slann can afford to throw many dice, and can go beyond 12 PD, but there is not a huge amount available to us that can raise our PD if we roll low and they have good defense.

I also intend to look at the viability of swarms. They're probably rubbish but for all I know something may have changed to make them useful.
 
Seems like warseer has got all the magic lores completed, if anyone is interested. The Lore of Life is looking pretty good, the 6th spell looks downright brutal. Whole target unit takes strength test or dies with no saves allowed.

For extending the Slann's magic phase you can take the new 35 point arcane item that grants d6 power dice to the pool, but costs the user D3 wounds with no armor save. Slann's 4+ ward and decent number of wounds should mitigate the negatives mostly.

Say you have a bad roll for your magic phase, rolling 1,2. You have 3 power dice, opponent has 2 dispel. Use this item and you will have a big power dice advantage over your opponent's dispels, and rumination will stretch that advantage further.
 
Caneghem said:
Seems like warseer has got all the magic lores completed, if anyone is interested. The Lore of Life is looking pretty good, the 6th spell looks downright brutal. Whole target unit takes strength test or dies with no saves allowed.

For extending the Slann's magic phase you can take the new 35 point arcane item that grants d6 power dice to the pool, but costs the user D3 wounds with no armor save. Slann's 4+ ward and decent number of wounds should mitigate the negatives mostly.

Say you have a bad roll for your magic phase, rolling 1,2. You have 3 power dice, opponent has 2 dispel. Use this item and you will have a big power dice advantage over your opponent's dispels, and rumination will stretch that advantage further.
Click to expand...

Also that item would be really good with life as you could regain most/all of your wounds with life after using it. Life almost seems overpowered with the immune to miscast on 2+ buff along with better life spells. I look at the other lores and keep coming back to life. Even if the immune to miscast is false, any damage the slann takes from a miscast will be healed the next turn.
 
yeah its realy overpowered with the 2+ imune to miscast but than again everyone knows that and will save theyre dices for that cast. but im certenly taing a lone slann with lore of life, or double slann with lore of life and light. those lores will make saurus horde prity dang awsome. ASF+I10+WS10+T4+d6+1 heal, what could be better? i mean hiting on 3+ and than reroll misses, casualtys are minimized byt T8/T6 and healing. looks realy good, but this will work good in 3000pt game, it will be hard to do that int 2500 and propably imposible in 2250.
 
@Dumble - thanks for clearing that issuse up. Was always wondering about spears on a charge so good stuff.

Something I hadnt really appreciated until running a few test match ups last night was that the fact your front rank doesnt go (due to the step up style casuatly removal) seemed to me the unit got a bit better. 15/18 with spears look like a pretty good choice. Age old anvil and hammer, the stegs being the hammer against those really tough infantry units.

Life does indeed look great :-) Ruminating life slann..... looking forward to it.

D
 
MM life does look good - not to mention that my only other army is DE :bored:

I was considering kroxigor for the hammers, but I forgot that they have damned great weapons. If only they were S5 with halberds!
 
I'm wondering how well solo Slanns will be able to survive.. you won't be able to hide him now with true line of sight. Ethereal and 2+ should do the trick, but I wonder if the increased amount of spells that ignore all saves will hurt? There are a lot of test for initiative or die type spells that look out sir would help counter.. though TG might not be viable either...
 
The item that let's you transfer a miscast is just completely vital to a slann now. Soul of stone is actually kind of also worth it. Expect to miscast every game.

I played two games today using the book that was at my local store, and I found wide-sweeping balance changes that were good all around. Wodd elves, surprisingly, got a very large buff. The rank bonuses granting stubborn is critical, but I found that when running units of 20 saurus and 12 skinks+krox it just wasn't enough. Frequently, a unit of dryads would stomp on the faces of 8-9 skinks per turn and leave me without rank bonuses, and losing very badly.

The war banner now allows you to re-roll ALL psychology that you fail, basically giving everyone the imperial banner by default. Also, kroxigors can stomp from the back rank, which is hilarious. Further, spears do in fact give you an extra rank, but it counts as a supporting attack, so you only make one attack. This is still pretty good though, if you have plenty of guys. Honestly, I think it is now a very good idea to run saurus warriors in a unit of 25, maybe even 30. I ran a unit of 10 Temple Guard on their own, and they basically never got a rank, and lost some attacks from combat. Honestly, I think 15 men is super important for nearly all units, as it gives you a buffer against casualties.

The "thunder Stomp" is pretty nice, it gives stegadons and, in my case, Tree-men, 1d6 hits at base strength at initiative Always strikes last.

The big thing is terrain, this was critical for lizard and wood elf armies in our games. Woods now don't slow you down, but are dangerous terrain for cavalry that march through them, more so for chariots. However, skirmishers in woods are stubborn, and ranked units cannot count their artificial stubborn from more ranks.

Rivers, including ponds and lakes, aren't dangerous, but prevent marching through them. They also deny people the ability to have rank bonuses. Units can't count ranks in a river.

Marshes are super important, they are dangerous terrain by default, though they don't slow people down, and they are DOUBLE dangerous for cavalry and chariots.

It is critical to note that skinks and co. are immune to the effects of Rivers, Lakes, AND marshes, so a skinkxigor unit in a marsh will have 1/6th of a unit charging them die to dangerous terrain.

Also, Great weapons can now be +2 Str from horseback, as far as I can tell, and javelins are range 12. Javelins, however, may now fire stand and shoot no matter how close the enemy is, but have long range penalties.
 
I've been told that the Saurus spears attack goes that it is full attacks in the first rank, supporting attacks in the second and full attacks in the third. This is because spears give an extra fighting rank, so using a unit 6 wide the number of attacks would be as so:

223222
111111
222222

I hope this is right, surprising holes have been found in the book already.
 
if only that were true any rank fighting after the first is counted as an supporting attack so max 1 attack in the second and third rank appart from monsterous infantry who get full attacks in 1st and 2nd rank so 6 krok in 2 ranks of 3 get 18 attacks :)
i plan on fielding my saurus spears six across and five deep thats 24 attacks per combat (no champ) normally will outrank so stubborn even if the enemy kill quite a few in combat casulties are removed from the rear because of step up so saurus will still get the 24 attacks
 
So far, I've found spears to be fairly useless on Saurus. The spear bonus will only add an attack for the third rank, and only if you don't charge. Also, to protect that third rank from casualties, you have to buy fodder saurus for the 4th rank...and they all cost 12 points...AND you lose the 6+ ward save from using HW+Shield if you ever use them.

What's been really successful for me so far is not even bothering with the spears, using ranks of 6 or seven wide, and keeping them medium-sized 16-20. In this config, the majority of your attacks come from the first rank, which makes it not that big of a deal if wounds cut into your second rank. This also makes saurus cheaper than with spears, and you can benefit from the shield save without making the spear upgrade redundant.

I must say, one of the biggest upgrades for LM is all the water terrain that skinks can abuse. It can absolutely swing the balance of a game...Salamanders are also unbelievably good in the new ed.
 
If you don't mind me asking, why are salamanders so good? I'm not that clued up on the rules, all I know is "no partials". Can they do something else that makes them even better?
 
OmegaRed - 8th edition's changes to infantry rules means that we'll be seeing not only bigger infantry units, but more of them. Salamanders were already viable in 7th when most infantry blocks were small (10-20 normally, sometimes 30 for horde armies like skaven or goblins). Not only will there be much more infantry to fry but template weapons are very very strong now since all of the partial hits count as hits (you don't have to roll 4+). Before a single salamander could expect maybe 10 hits from a good shot, but now you could get up to about 35 hits on 10-wide units (from the flank), or up to about 15 or 20 hits from a normal angle on 20 or 30 strong units (from a single salamander - never mind units of 2 or 3!). Not only do we hit far more, but there will be much more to hit! To compensate for this, breath weapons are one use only per game, but salamanders are not breath weapons! The only downside is that I don't really like the models.
 
Thanks Dumbeldore. I'm glad I now have the older version of the salamander! Although I'll have to get two more as I'm thinking of fielding a unit of three!
 
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