AoS Fixing Serephon

[Canas]

no almost everything i mentioned is ether support or somthing you have to drop immediately. necromancers have dance mecab gardian of souls brings back crazy amounts of models, death generals bring back intire units, nagash is best taken out at range and this makes it imposible, skinks are suport, tzaansagor shaman adds attacks and modles, hag queens let you reroll wounds and shrugs,the fleash eater heroes bring in back up units, the akelian kin (or maby voltros not surten witch)gives eels a lot more attacks, tide casters drop hit rolls and let you skrew with the tides of death, warchanters give +1 to hit and it stacks and blood priests give a lot of attacks. so not all of them are strictlysupport heroes all of them give nasty buffs you wan't to mitigate.

No most of them are not. Most of them are individual powerhouses who have something that benefits allies somewhere in their abilities. Most heroes have something that benefits allies, they're supposed to be the leaders of a faction. There's very very few heroes who are pure beatsticks with nothing in there to lead their underlings.... On top of that, a great deal of the examples you give are not minor heroes. Of course freaking Nagash doesn't need an attendant for some statboosts, the guy's a living god. He can handle himself. A skink priest or necromancer however, isn't a living gods. So keeping some attendant saurus or skeleton guards seems like a wise idea in case an enemy sneaks up on them and they need to defend themselfves....

And also again, and I don't know why I have to keep repeating this. The point is not to make heroes impossible to take out or all-powerfull.

I guess we don't even classify things is a remotely similar manner. The game doesn't need Skink Priest to be able to kill even one liberator, let alone multiples. Maybe your narrative wants a Skink Priest to kill them though.

I disagree. Or at least, I think it'd be better for the game. Of course it doesn't "need" it in so much that it probably can survive without doing everything I'd want. Not like I'm the only player who's opinion matters.

Even so, a Skink Priest's shooting attack throughout the course of the game will probably kill 2-3 liberators. He is able to do this from range while supporting. The whole thing you kept asking for support heroes to get is that they are able to participate in the battle beyond just the hero phase. If you really want Skink Priest to be more capable then you can kit them to be more capable. Use a Feather Cloak. Now it has a 4+ save. Give it an artifact to increase its durability.

His shooting attack is indeed one of the better ones amongst minor heroes. Though I would like that one to be a tad more reliable (Why the D3 attacks...) as I'm simply not a fan of unreliable attacks like that, especially when it's a mere D3 & feel like it performs decently with 3 attacks, but is lacking with 1.

As for kitting him out defensivly with artifacts, don't think you're really going to get anywhere even when stacking literally everything we got on him. You're still going to be stuck with only 4 wounds. At best you're going to get the same result as saurus guard, impossible to hurt with regular attacks, trivial to murder with mortal wounds. Though that'd require a fairly massive investment.

Specificly for the skink priest I'd want the following:
- 3 ranged attacks instead of D3.
- A couple more (effective) wounds so he doesn't risk (near) instant death against virtually any opponent (be it ranged, magic or melee). How exactly this is achieved is secondary (ward saves, more wounds, throwing wounds at other models)
- Enough melee capabilities to actually win some fights. This doesn't need to be major and turn him into a melee horror, just make it actually deal a whole point of damage on average against a 4+ save. It's fine if he needs to rely on his own support to be able to pull this off.
- Priestly trappings + cloak of feathers to be updated as priestly trappings is just flat out better unless you desperatly want the fly. Why? Cuz priestly trappings allows him to support himself as well, and a re-rolling 5+ is better than a simple 4+...
- Some general stuff, like prayers, more usefull faction artifacts, general traits etc.

You can also take the starpriest as an example, just as incapable in melee and doesn't even have a ranged attack. Or the starseer a bit sturdier, but worse at literally everything else.

​

It really feels like you just want to be contrary. Every anecdote you present seems to deliberately select a hero who isn't intended to do what you want it to do.

Well yeah, of course they don't do what I want them to do. They're examples of heroes not working in the way I think they're intended. And of course I think GW should agree with me

This would universally be bad for the game if it were applied to all heroes. Skink Priest should die in combat. Collegiate Arcana mages should die in combat. Any true support should die in combat.

Again, yes they shouldn't last long in combat against most things. But, especially when they use their support on themselves, they should be able to fight off minor foes like 1 basic unit of battleline. Again, they don't need to be throwing fireballs left and right, buffing all their friends & murder troops at the same time. I just want them to be capable of say chasing 5 liberators of an objective. It's fine if that is all they do that turn and if they can't really do it more than once or twice in an entire game.

Khrone, SCE, and a few others have capable minor heroes. It is part of their army identity.

That's one of the reasons behind my earlier suggestion of command squads. A skink hero shows up with a few attendants, a SCE might be fine on his own.

 

[LizardWizard]

I just want them to be capable of say chasing 5 liberators of an objective.

That would be awful for the game. Why bring 5 liberators for 100 points if an 80 point support model can beat them off the only thing in the game that maters..

 

[Erta Wanderer]

No most of them are not. Most of them are individual powerhouses who have something that benefits allies somewhere in their abilities. Most heroes have something that benefits allies, they're supposed to be the leaders of a faction. There's very very few heroes who are pure beatsticks with nothing in there to lead their underlings.... On top of that, a great deal of the examples you give are not minor heroes. Of course freaking Nagash doesn't need an attendant for some statboosts, the guy's a living god. He can handle himself. A skink priest or necromancer however, isn't a living gods. So keeping some attendant saurus or skeleton guards seems like a wise idea in case an enemy sneaks up on them and they need to defend themselfves....

2..... 2 of them are power houses nagash who i qualified and akelian king. the rest are wizards and the miner casters of there faction with a priests and the 2nd weakest iron jaw thrown in for flavor. all of witch i qualified at the end so your just ignoring what i say to rag on nagash.
the point is not that they are all pure support the point is they are the linch pin of there army's buff engine (again with the exception of nagash wouldn't want you ignoring what i say for a third time) and are best handeled at range if you can all of which is made impossible by the proposed -3 to shooting or can not target hero buffs. sorry ChapterAquila92 if you are reading this im not still trying to rag on your suggestion this conversation just outlived the one i was having with you

 

[Canas]

That would be awful for the game. Why bring 5 liberators for 100 points if an 80 point support model can beat them off the only thing in the game that maters..

Cuz you can't bring 10 support units but you can bring 50 liberators. Limitations on number of heroes and whatnot are still a thing

Also again, they only need to be capable of doing that. They don't need to do it succesfully every try. If support vs liberator has a 30-70 ratio, going to 40-60 if the support gets to go first, of who comes out on top, instead of the current 1-99 ratio, it'd be more than sufficient.

As for point values, Maybe the support unit now needs to be a 100 point support unit. Or if it remains a 80 point support unit it will only defeat 4 liberators and needs some luck to defeat the 5th. Or maybe it can only reliably defeat 3.5 liberators and needs some luck, and make sure to go first, to defeat the last 1.5 liberator in that squad. Again, it doesn't need to be a guaranteed win, it just needs to be a realistic option especially when it can get in an advantages position, like striking first or supporting itself.

 

[LizardWizard]

Cuz you can't bring 10 support units but you can bring 50 liberators. Limitations on number of heroes and whatnot are still a thing

Also again, they only need to be capable of doing that. They don't need to do it succesfully every try. If support vs liberator has a 30-70 ratio, going to 40-60 if the support gets to go first, of who comes out on top, instead of the current 1-99 ratio, it'd be more than sufficient.

As for point values, Maybe the support unit now needs to be a 100 point support unit. Or if it remains a 80 point support unit it will only defeat 4 liberators and needs some luck to defeat the 5th. Or maybe it can only reliably defeat 3.5 liberators and needs some luck, and make sure to go first, to defeat the last 1.5 liberator in that squad. Again, it doesn't need to be a guaranteed win, it just needs to be a realistic option especially when it can get in an advantages position, like striking first or supporting itself.

I disagree. In the current iteration of the game this would be problematic.

We really don't need smash captains in yet another game. Specially ones that are priest or wizards. There are currently support heroes who can on their own beat 5x units of liberators over the course of two or three turns. The Saurus Sunblood and Eternity Warden are both examples of this when they are allotted artefacts to emphasize their combat roles.

 

[Canas]

2..... 2 of them are power houses nagash who i qualified and akelian king. the rest are wizards and the miner casters of there faction with a priests and the 2nd weakest iron jaw thrown in for flavor. all of witch i qualified at the end so your just ignoring what i say to rag on nagash.
the point is not that they are all pure support the point is they are the linch pin of there army's buff engine (again with the exception of nagash wouldn't want you ignoring what i say for a third time) and are best handeled at range if you can all of which is made impossible by the proposed -3 to shooting or can not target hero buffs. sorry ChapterAquila92 if you are reading this im not still trying to rag on you suggestion this conversation just just outlived the one i was having with you

where is -3 to hit coming from? Also, I never said you can't target them. My suggestion was to give minor heroes enough stats to make em capable of holding their own when forced to, possibly representing the extra stats with a command squad or some attendants in the case of weak heroes. I'm fairly certain multiple conversations are getting mixed up here

Also, your list included examples like the cauldron of blood variants and plaque furnace. Not to mention a whole host of heroes who definitly aren't "minor". Nagash & that King definitly weren't the only heroes in there capable of going on a murderspree in there. There's undoubtly examples in there I think should fall under my proposed buffs, but most of them don't (or I simply do not know well enough to immeadiatly judge, and I'm not going to look up every single hero in the game )

 

[Canas]

I disagree. In the current iteration of the game this would be problematic.

We really don't need smash captains in yet another game. Specially ones that are priest or wizards. There are currently support heroes who can on their own beat 5x units of liberators over the course of two or three turns. The Saurus Sunblood and Eternity Warden are both examples of this when they are allotted artefacts to emphasize their combat roles.

I'm not advocating smash captains. I'd rather see something more in the middle between the extreme of smash captains and the current state of minor heroes in AoS. Though I'm not yet entirely sure which side I'd rather err on. Intuitivly I'd say err-ing on the side of smash captains feels better on account of it making heroes properly heroic, but then again, I haven't played enough 40K to be traumatized by one of them killing entire armies on his own.

The fact that your listing a sunblood as a "support" hero who can potentially kill 5 liberators over the course of 2 or 3 turns is kind of depressing. A sunblood should neither be a "support", nor struggle with basic battleline.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

where is -3 to hit coming from? Also, I never said you can't target them. My suggestion was to give minor heroes enough stats to make em capable of holding their own when forced to, possibly representing the extra stats with a command squad or some attendants in the case of weak heroes. I'm fairly certain multiple conversations are getting mixed up here

Also, your list included examples like the cauldron of blood variants and plaque furnace. Not to mention a whole host of heroes who definitly aren't "minor". Nagash & that King definitly weren't the only heroes in there capable of going on a murderspree in there. There's undoubtly examples in there I think should fall under my proposed buffs, but most of them don't (or I simply do not know well enough to immeadiatly judge, and I'm not going to look up every single hero in the game )

The -3 was the original ability suggested that I was responding to you jumped in along the way. and despite being far more durable culdrens furneses and the rest would all be affected by the range debuff as they are not monsters and half of them arn't behemoths that was part of the point whatever you do to the squishy ones effects them to

 

[LizardWizard]

The fact that your listing a sunblood as a "support" hero who can potentially kill 5 liberators over the course of 2 or 3 turns is kind of depressing. A sunblood should neither be a "support", nor struggle with basic battleline.

I still disagree. Sunblood is a support hero. He is in the battle to point at things and give rerolls. He is also capable in combat.

Why should five demigods made of lighting instantly fall over to a Sunblood? Why should battleline crumble when any hero glances sideways at them? Your arguments seem to be directed at wanting heroes in AoS to be action movie heroes who kill whole squads on their own. It doesn't appear to be game based.

 

[Canas]

The -3 was the original ability suggested that I was responding to you jumped in along the way. and despite being far more durable culdrens furneses and the rest would all be affected by the range debuff as they are not monsters and half of them arn't behemoths that was part of the point whatever you do to the squishy ones effects them to

I'm fairly certain stuff is getting mixed up here, I've never said anything about range debuffs.

Also,it sounds like that can just be resolved the same way 40K resolves it. Their look-out-sir variant just says "this rule does not apply to characters with more than 10 wounds"

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I'm fairly certain stuff is getting mixed up here, I've never said anything about range debuffs.

Also,it sounds like that can just be resolved the same way 40K resolves it. Their look-out-sir variant just says "this rule does not apply to characters with more than 10 wounds"

yes again you jumped in half way thru and i thaught we where talking about the same thing sorry for the aggression

that would work for 4 of them but wouldn't help with all of the rest

 

[Canas]

I still disagree. Sunblood is a support hero. He is in the battle to point at things and give rerolls. He is also capable in combat.

Why should five demigods made of lighting instantly fall over to a Sunblood? Why should battleline crumble when any hero glances sideways at them? Your arguments seem to be directed at wanting heroes in AoS to be action movie heroes who kill whole squads on their own. It doesn't appear to be game based.

Our battletome describes sunbloods as avatars of an ancient god, the next evolution of the seraphon, and pieces of a lost war deity remade. Sounds more than enough to take on a demigod or two. Regardless, sunbloods are canonicly creatures who are aeons old, potentially dating back to the world that was, and since saurus just become bigger and stronger the older aeons old seems like it'd create some amazing warriors. Their claim on (demi)godhood seems stronger than the SCE's. Also, I always was under the impression that the average SCE were merely superhuman, not demi-god levels of powerfull. Always viewed them more like lesser angels.

And it's mostly based on the fact that the various heroes are supposed to be commanding those battleline. Based on the fluff of most races heroes also tend to be superpowered, more badass versions of that same battleline. Or at least they get the fanciest shiniest most magical toys in the case of more mortal factions. Both of which to me indicate they should be able to deal with their lesser counterparts with relative ease.

Also, they're 1 model units. A 1 model unit should be fancier than a 10 model unit of similar pointcost. Otherwise why not just stick it in a 10 model unit.

Those things are why I feel unsatisfied with the current heroes.

 

[Canas]

yes again you jumped in half way thru and i thaught we where talking about the same thing sorry for the aggression

that would work for 4 of them but wouldn't help with all of the rest

No problem, it was getting rather confusing.

And well, as I said, it should be done on a case by case basis. Also, I'd stick with my suggestion of a relative simple statboost (with or without attendants for fluffy reasons and to sell more models). A broad general rule, like becoming untargetable, probably has too many and too complex consequences you can't oversee and people will make up some broken combo. If we'd go for a rule like that would need far more carefull consideration.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

No problem, it was getting rather confusing.

And well, as I said, it should be done on a case by case basis. Also, I'd stick with my suggestion of a relative simple statboost (with or without attendants for fluffy reasons and to sell more models). A broad general rule, like becoming untargetable, probably has too many and too complex consequences you can't oversee and people will make up some broken combo. If we'd go for a rule like that would need far more carefull consideration.

fair and that is what i have been doing speaking of which now that that it behind us i have some behemoths to stat out

 

[Erta Wanderer]

stegadon
move*
bravery 10
wounds 10
save 4+

Javelins 4 10" 4/4/-/1
sky-streak bow long range 3 30" 4/3/-1/2
sky-streak bow short range 5 16" 4/3/-2/2
Sunfire Throwers * 8" 3/3/-/1
Massive Horns 3 2" 3/3/*/2
crushing stomps * 1" 4/3/-1/1

wounds move massive crushing
0-2 8" -3 3d6
3-4 7" -2 3d6
5-6 6" -2 2d6
7-8 5" -1 2d6
9 4" -1 1d6

abilities
unstoppable stampede unchanged
steadfast majesty skinks within 5" are immune to battle shock
gout of sunfire unchanged
skink alpha unchanged

 

[Erta Wanderer]

bastiladon 240
move 5"
bravery 10
wounds 8
save 3+
searing beam 2d6 22" 3/3/-1/2
javelins 4 10" 4/4/-/1
bludgeoning tail 3 2" 3/3/-1/d3
impervious defense unchanged
light of the heavens when targeting unit has 6 or more base health deal 3 damage instead of 2
sweeping blows when bludgeoning tail targets 1 wound models add 2 to the attack stat
tide of snakes add the following statement tat the end the snakes can be chaneld at the expense of volume sotek gives them purpose if you only target one unit roll 8 dice on a 4+ that unit takes a mortal wound

 

[Erta Wanderer]

engine of the gods
move*
bravery 10
wounds 10
save 4+

javelins 4 10" 4/4/-/1
sharpened horns 4 2" 3/3/-1/2
crushing stomps * 1" 4/3/-1/1

wounds 0-2 3-4 5-6 7-8 9
move 8" 7" 6" 5" 4"
crushing 3d6 3d6 2d6 2d6 1d6
cosmic 3 dice 3 dice 2 dice 2 dice 1 dice

abilities
unstoppable stampede unchanged
steadfast majesty skinks within 5" are immune to battle shock
cosmic engine
1-2 unchanged
3-5 replenishes models in addition to healing
6-9 unchanged
10-13 reroll wound rolls for all units intierly within 10"
14-17 unchanged
18 unchanged

 

[Canas]

Stegadon:
Needs some survivability, it's one of the easier to kill behemoths and it isn't particularly fast either so he is quite suspectible to being kited. And yes, of course we have our teleport and the healing from a thunderquake, but I don't think a stegadon should have to rely on those two just to do it's job. I'd say add a few wounds, and maybe a small ward-save.
Sunfire throwers need a minimum output so it achieves something against smaller squads. Doesn't need to be amazing, but for example a minimum number of attacks would be most wonderfull here. You could use the same approach you used with the skystreak bow having 2 firing modes to balance it.

Basitiladon:
Give it a few more wounds.
Sweeping blows is a nice touch for dealing with hordes, but still leaves him very much lacking in melee against thougher opponents.
Tide of snakes: your channeled version is going to be the only version used as it's the most reliable. And has the highest damage output unless your opponent is kind enough to attack him with 3+ units. Don't think that's a good fix.
Light of heavens: meh. Not bad, but not a fan. Also, furthers cements the solar engine as better than the ark.

In general, it still leaves him very much lacking in melee. And the solar ark remains the best pick, in fact the difference has become bigger.. With some relativly minor buffs. So I don't think it really fixes anything.

EoTG:
Again, like the stegadon it needs some extra survivability, though at least it can heal itself.
Why are it's horns worse than the stegadon. I know the current versions have that as well, and it's weird there too.
engine results:
1-2: change that, there's no real need for it to randomly explode (nor is there a fluffy reason for it.. it's not like it's unstable technology)
3-5: cool
6-9: change this into a buff too. Every other effect is a supporting effect, why is there a random nuke in there.
10-13: cool, maybe needs a bit larger of an aura.
14-17: meh, I want to like it but I feel that in it's current form it's always going to be a problematic mechanic to balance against the other effects.
18: sure.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Stegadon:
Needs some survivability, it's one of the easier to kill behemoths and it isn't particularly fast either so he is quite suspectible to being kited. And yes, of course we have our teleport and the healing from a thunderquake, but I don't think a stegadon should have to rely on those two just to do it's job. I'd say add a few wounds, and maybe a small ward-save.
Sunfire throwers need a minimum output so it achieves something against smaller squads. Doesn't need to be amazing, but for example a minimum number of attacks would be most wonderfull here. You could use the same approach you used with the skystreak bow having 2 firing modes to balance it.

Basitiladon:
Give it a few more wounds.
Sweeping blows is a nice touch for dealing with hordes, but still leaves him very much lacking in melee against thougher opponents.
Tide of snakes: your channeled version is going to be the only version used as it's the most reliable. And has the highest damage output unless your opponent is kind enough to attack him with 3+ units. Don't think that's a good fix.
Light of heavens: meh. Not bad, but not a fan. Also, furthers cements the solar engine as better than the ark.

In general, it still leaves him very much lacking in melee. And the solar ark remains the best pick, in fact the difference has become bigger.. With some relativly minor buffs. So I don't think it really fixes anything.

EoTG:
Again, like the stegadon it needs some extra survivability, though at least it can heal itself.
Why are it's horns worse than the stegadon. I know the current versions have that as well, and it's weird there too.
engine results:
1-2: change that, there's no real need for it to randomly explode (nor is there a fluffy reason for it.. it's not like it's unstable technology)
3-5: cool
6-9: change this into a buff too. Every other effect is a supporting effect, why is there a random nuke in there.
10-13: cool, maybe needs a bit larger of an aura.
14-17: meh, I want to like it but I feel that in it's current form it's always going to be a problematic mechanic to balance against the other effects.
18: sure.

stegadons i made its profile less awful maby 2 more wounds but it's a long range option so eh. and it's alpha still gives it a d6 to move
sunfires are already really nasty and if your in melee with 5 eleat models that's why you have rend -3

bastiladon
no then it would have a damage chart and we really don't want that the fact that its just as good at 1 wound as 8 is why it does so well i just droped the price to fit better with the durability
he is already a jack of all trades this makes him harder to tar pit he cant do every thing.
tide of snakes fair im not shur how to fix this one without a complete rewright if it remains mortal wounds then it cant get much better or it will eclipse the sun cannon but it's already worse then that but the sun cannon isn't relay any good so currently at a loss
light of the heavens now does something against more then chaos and the problem has always been with the ark not the cannon

EoTG
1-2 this isn't random and cant happen until it's badly damaged hence the fluff
6-9 becouse light lazorz are fun and this is one of the better ones in the game i only got rid of the other damage one because it was bad
10-13 it's just shy of the astrolith bearer and he does fine it's the most likely outcome you will get on 3d6 and even more so when a slann is nearby so a 20" circle is huge as is
14-17 we are a summon army it's what we do

 

[Canas]

stegadons i made its profile less awful maby 2 more wounds but it's a long range option so eh. and it's alpha still gives it a d6 to move

I really wouldn't call the stegadon a long range option. Yeah, they can carry a skybow, and due to our utter lack of ranged stuff that makes them our "ranged" option by default. But far too much of their strength is stuck in their melee profile for them to be a proper artillery piece. If you want to keep them squishy on account of them being an artillery piece you're going to have to double down on their ranged attacks and move more strength into that (relativly to their melee prowess).

As for the alpha, it helps. But I don't think it should have to rely on that. If they have to consistently use it on themselves to keep up, and don't really have the oppertunity to use it on another unit cuz of that, they might as well just get a better baseline movement.

sunfires are already really nasty and if your in melee with 5 eleat models that's why you have rend -3

Sunfires are literally only useable for one thing. Which makes it super obvious as to which units should counter it and which should run away from it. It also means that unless you can do that 1 thing, the entire weapon is just useless. Hence give it something like a fixed minimum amount of attacks to at least make the counter a fraction less obvious.

Also, the rend is far too easy to knock down to rely on that to deal with any and all small units. If he'd stay at maximum health the entire game & there was some way to avoid rolling badly when generating the stomps attack it wouldn't be needed. But this is not the case and can mean a stegadon with flamethrowers can be surprisingly harmless at times.

bastiladon
no then it would have a damage chart and we really don't want that the fact that its just as good at 1 wound as 8 is why it does so well i just droped the price to fit better with the durability

Why would it need a damage table? Has GW explicitly stated they will always do that if you have more than X wounds? And if so, why? cuz that should not be a rule set in stone.

tide of snakes fair im not shur how to fix this one without a complete rewright if it remains mortal wounds then it cant get much better or it will eclipse the sun cannon but it's already worse then that but the sun cannon isn't relay any good so currently at a loss

The only thing I can think of is to let "missed" snakes do something. But yeah, I suspect a more extensive rewrite of that particular mechanic is needed.

light of the heavens now does something against more then chaos and the problem has always been with the ark not the cannon

Hence meh, not a fan. It works but just not something I am overly enthousiastic about

EoTG
1-2 this isn't random and cant happen until it's badly damaged hence the fluff

How is a dice roll not random?

As for the fluff, I haven't really seen any fluff as to why it should happen. Especially seeing as it's the stegadon you wound, people aren't tearing down the actual engine. Which just makes it weird and out of place.

6-9 becouse light lazorz are fun and this is one of the better ones in the game i only got rid of the other damage one because it was bad

It's fun, but out of place. Everything else is support & buff focussed. Having a random attack in there screws with how you'd use the unit & introduces complications when balancing as now it needs to balance utility against a nuke, which is difficult as they're two very different things.

10-13 it's just shy of the astrolith bearer and he does fine it's the most likely outcome you will get on 3d6 and even more so when a slann is nearby so a 20" circle is huge as is

Meh, I'd consider making it "buff X nearby units" or something. Just generally not a great fan of the aura's that require a unit to be wholly within it.

14-17 we are a summon army it's what we do

I know, it's mostly how the EoTG specificly does the summoning I'm not a fan off. Maybe change it into "summon 12 points worth of stuff". All the options currently are 12 points as well. And this'd open up some flexibility and funky combinations which could make it more interesting.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]