8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Here we go, this problematic matchup has arrived. Soul Grinder vs. Mournfang Cavalry. As discussed, I ran multiple matchups for them, but instead of running 2, I actually ended up running 3 different matches:

• Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 4 Mournfang Cavalry, no command [280pts]
• Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 3 Mournfang Cavalry, full command [240pts]
  
• Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 3 Mournfang Cavalry, musician + standard bearer only [230pts]

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So in all 3 matchups the Soul Grinder wins, but we're still left with:

• 4 Mournfang Cavalry, no command [280pts] = Soul Grinder Massive Victory
• 3 Mournfang Cavalry, full command [240pts] = Soul Grinder Massive Victory
  
• 3 Mournfang Cavalry, musician + standard bearer only [230pts] = Soul Grinder regular Victory

Simply put, the Mournfang can't reliably wound the Soul Grinder, but can win combat while their Standard Bearer and Musician are alive, causing the Soul Grinder to bleed wounds via Daemonic Instability.

The first match includes no command, so the Mournfang can't win any rounds of combat and trigger the Daemonic Instability

The second match includes full command, so the Mournfang win a few rounds via their musician. However, at only three models, all of which are command models, as soon as the Mournfang lose model, that model is the Musician (because Champions are removed last, standard bearers second last and musicians third last). Once this happens they can no longer win combat rounds and trigger Daemonic Instability.

The third match only includes the musician and standard bearer command models. This is the best setup for the Mournfang as they maintain their musician + standard bearer models even after suffering their first casualty. This means they can trigger Daemonic Instability even at two models strong, giving them more rounds where the Soul Grinder is losing Daemonic Instability wounds.


I have decided that the fairest outcome for this matchup is to award the Soul Grinder with a Massive Victory. My rationale is as follows:

• 2 of the 3 matches ended in a Massive Victory. 2 > 1
• it was agreed that we would add command models (first musician, then champion) to best even out the points total
• purposefully not including the champion in this matchup feels like list building in favour of the Mournfang for this specific match (which would be similar to removing ensorcelled weapons from the Skullcrushers to bypass the White Lions BotWD). This is something we decided against at the onset of the tournament.
• the Mournfang made me run 3 sets of tedious calculations for this matchup and I want them to burn in hell!

Unless there is vehement objection to my proposed decision above, I will make it official and update the tourney. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

Yep, given a Massive Victory occurred twice versus once for Victory, a Massive Victory it should be.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I have decided that the fairest outcome for this matchup is to award the Soul Grinder with a Massive Victory. My rationale is as follows:

• 2 of the 3 matches ended in a Massive Victory. 2 > 1
• it was agreed that we would add command models (first musician, then champion) to best even out the points total
• purposefully not including the champion in this matchup feels like list building in favour of the Mournfang for this specific match (which would be similar to removing ensorcelled weapons from the Skullcrushers to bypass the White Lions BotWD). This is something we decided against at the onset of the tournament.
• the Mournfang made me run 3 sets of tedious calculations for this matchup and I want them to burn in hell!

Unless there is vehement objection to my proposed decision above, I will make it official and update the tourney. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

I vehemently agree

Sadly (for the little kittens), it has to be a massive victory since this whole contest is about averages.

Poor, poor little Thundercats...

They probably would have done better with GW (but no ironfists) in this match-up... ah, well. I probably would field them with ironfist if I'm going up against DoC anyways so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Yep, given a Massive Victory occurred twice versus once for Victory, a Massive Victory it should be.

Thank you gents. And it is done...




Two other alternate matchups were calculated with different starting setups for the Mournfang. They can be found here

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Thank you gents. And it is done...

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Two other alternate matchups were calculated with different starting setups for the Mournfang. They can be found here

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[LoR sobs softly, cradling the lifeless form of a Mournfang in his arms]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

[LoR sobs softly, cradling the lifeless form of a Mournfang in his arms]

They're done... that was a crippling loss for them. Their next matchup will also likely end up as a Massive Loss. Looks like they might end up with -10 points overall.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

They're done... that was a crippling loss for them. Their next matchup will also likely end up as a Massive Loss. Looks like they might end up with -10 points overall.

Bugger.

Doesn't stop me liking them though. What it DOES do is highlight the fact that a huge amount of their value comes from that D3 impact hits so I need to make sure I get the charge with them for them to be totally worth the points.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Spoiler: Alternate formation where the Chaos Warriors start wide.

Anyone else notice the Demigryph Knights quietly trying to make their bid for third (or the top 5 at the very least)?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Spoiler: Alternate formation where the Witch Elves start narrow

As for the Black Guard, I'm going to throw out a risky prediction and say that they will end up beating the Witch Elves.

Surprise, surprise! The Black Guard were tailor made for beating the Witch Elves. Their ASFs cancel each other out, but the Black Guard can simply fall back on their Eternal Hatred. The Black Guard also have a better WS, which severely hampered the Witch Elves. Even their normally inconsequential Heavy Armor played a pivotal part.

Just like the Dark Elves to play spoiler against their own kin. The Witch Elves would have be extraordinarily lucky to attain 3rd place now. They can still do it if they smash the Chaos Trolls AND both the Demigryphs and Skullcrushers have a poor showing in their final matches, but it is a longshot.

 

[Killer Angel]

This is going to be a finale on the edge!

In retrospect, it's not a surprise that demigriph show a power level similar to skullcrushers '

 

[Lizards of Renown]

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Spoiler: Alternate formation where the Chaos Warriors start wide.

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Anyone else notice the Demigryph Knights quietly trying to make their bid for third (or the top 5 at the very least)?

Very interesting.

I think 1st and 2nd place are locked in now.

3rd is highly contested! I'm very curious to see how it pans out!

I forget sometimes that the WE's have WS4. It's sometimes a key point and it probably would have been OP to make a core choice WS5.

I also forgot about the Black Guard Eternal Hatred. Very VERY useful.

With a quick look over the match-ups, I think the Demigryphs will end up in 4th place. The Skullcrushers will lose against the K'Daai and the WE's will lose against the Chaos Trolls. The Chaos Trolls are going to win against the WoC, so I think they'll come out on top.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Doesn't stop me liking them though. What it DOES do is highlight the fact that a huge amount of their value comes from that D3 impact hits so I need to make sure I get the charge with them for them to be totally worth the points.

They're a good unit, not Ironblaster good, but still definitely solid.

In retrospect, it's not a surprise that demigriph show a power level similar to skullcrushers '

It will be interesting to see how the final matches play out. Who will do better in their respective matches:

• Skullcrushers vs. K'daai Destroyer
• Demigryphs vs. Savage Orc Big'uns
• Trolls vs. Chaos Warriors followed by Trolls vs. Witch Elves

If all three units fail, the Witch Elves could still swoop in and steal the spot

I also forgot about the Black Guard Eternal Hatred. Very VERY useful.

It's one of those funny rules that rarely ever gets used. ASF + I6 usually grants the Black Guard re-rolls to hit. But in instances where that is negated (via opposing ASF or an initiative greater than 6) it is immensely useful. It is why I predicted that the Black Guard would upset the Witch Elves.

With a quick look over the match-ups, I think the Demigryphs will end up in 4th place. The Skullcrushers will lose against the K'Daai and the WE's will lose against the Chaos Trolls. The Chaos Trolls are going to win against the WoC, so I think they'll come out on top.

How do you feel that the Demigryphs will fare in their final matchup against the Savage Orcs? A strong showing puts them in great standing for at least a share of third place.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

They're a good unit, not Ironblaster good, but still definitely solid.




It will be interesting to see how the final matches play out. Who will do better in their respective matches:

• Skullcrushers vs. K'daai Destroyer
• Demigryphs vs. Savage Orc Big'uns
• Trolls vs. Chaos Warriors followed by Trolls vs. Witch Elves

If all three units fail, the Witch Elves could still swoop in and steal the spot



It's one of those funny rules that rarely ever gets used. ASF + I6 usually grants the Black Guard re-rolls to hit. But in instances where that is negated (via opposing ASF or an initiative greater than 6) it is immensely useful. It is why I predicted that the Black Guard would upset the Witch Elves.


How do you feel that the Demigryphs will fare in their final matchup against the Savage Orcs? A strong showing puts them in great standing for at least a share of third place.

Hmmm.... I don't think the Savage Orc's are going to do it. They'll be at 3+ armour save while choppas are in effect but turn two it's back to 2+ save...

I think they'll do damage, but the Demigryphs armour is going to win the day for them.

 

[The Great White Lizard]

Interesting that Mournfangs get a massive loss with full command, and then only a loss with no champion. We've seen a lot of flips in this comp, and 3rd is still up for grabs.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hmmm.... I don't think the Savage Orc's are going to do it. They'll be at 3+ armour save while choppas are in effect but turn two it's back to 2+ save...

I think they'll do damage, but the Demigryphs armour is going to win the day for them.

So Demigryphs by Victory or Massive Victory?

I'd say it will be a regular victory as that is what we saw in the Skullcrushers vs. Savage Orcs matchup. If it does end being a Massive Victory instead, then the Demigryphs are guaranteed a third place finish (possibly shared or sole possession).

Interesting that Mournfangs get a massive loss with full command, and then only a loss with no champion. We've seen a lot of flips in this comp, and 3rd is still up for grabs.

It was definitely a strange matchup. The Mournfang really needed that Musician to stay alive for as long as possible, which it was better able to do without the champion in the unit. It's probably a pretty rare event for things to play out this way.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

They're a good unit, not Ironblaster good, but still definitely solid.

Yep. Any something about them definitely appeals to me (lore wise).

It will be interesting to see how the final matches play out. Who will do better in their respective matches:

• Skullcrushers vs. K'daai Destroyer
• Demigryphs vs. Savage Orc Big'uns
• Trolls vs. Chaos Warriors followed by Trolls vs. Witch Elves

If all three units fail, the Witch Elves could still swoop in and steal the spot

So the Skullcrushers are going to get mutilated by the K'daai, no question.

Demigryphs will win against the Savage Orcs.

Trolls vs WoC... Not sure... I guess Trolls if they're using vomit, so no armour saves and no roll to hit.

Trolls will beat the Witch Elves, but not a massive victory.

It's one of those funny rules that rarely ever gets used. ASF + I6 usually grants the Black Guard re-rolls to hit. But in instances where that is negated (via opposing ASF or an initiative greater than 6) it is immensely useful. It is why I predicted that the Black Guard would upset the Witch Elves.

Interesting (and a good catch on the rules!)

 

[Lizards of Renown]

So Demigryphs by Victory or Massive Victory?

Just a victory, they'll take some heat in that first round with the number of attacks they'll be putting out.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Yep. Any something about them definitely appeals to me (lore wise).

They're also the most reliable cannons in Warhammer.

So the Skullcrushers are going to get mutilated by the K'daai, no question.

I don't think it will be a Massive Win / Massive Loss scenario. Skullcrushers can hurt the Destroyer, the question is, can they hurt it enough to make a difference. I'm going with the Destroyer via regular victory.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Hammerers finish the tournament with a final score of -8. It also looks as though the Executioners will finish the tournament in the positive, as they are heavily favoured in their final matchup. Which is kind of fitting as well have 8 units in the positives and 8 units in the negative.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Trolls vs WoC... Not sure... I guess Trolls if they're using vomit, so no armour saves and no roll to hit.

Trolls will indeed be using their Troll Vomit special rule. It will give them a slight advantage over their regular attacks because it will completely ignore the CW's armour (as opposed to their normal attacks which would leave the CW with a 6+). Ultimately you get the same number of hits as [1 attack that automatically hits] = [3 attack's that hit on 5's]. They both wound using the same strength, so the armour negation is what gives the Troll Vomit the edge in this matchup.

The Chaos Trolls vs. Chaos Warriors will be our next matchup!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Time for some Chaos on Chaos violence!








The Chaos Warriors finish the tournament in second last place. Only the White Lions have a mathematical chance to join them at second from the bottom, but in order for that to happen, the White Lions would have to lose massively to the Arachnarok Spider of all things! Pretty sure that isn't going to happen.

As for the Trolls, their bid for third place stays alive as they currently sit tied for the position with the Skullcrushers and Demigryph Knights. It all comes down to who will perform the best in their final matchup:

• Skullcrushers face the K'daai Destroyer
• Demigryphs face the Savage Orc Big'uns
• Chaos Trolls face the Witch Elves

If any of these three win their final matchup, it will mean that the Witch Elves and HPA have no mathematical chance to attain third place (which while highly improbable is still mathematically possible at this point).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Pretty quiet on this thread... seems like I'm the only one around... the show goes on...



The Arachnarok Spider puts on a classic Arachnarok Spider performance in its grand finale!





The Chaos Warriors have now officially "earned" sole possession of 15th place. A shameful showing.

The White Lions end up tied with the Hammerers at -8 points.