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8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

Going into round #14, we will have a slight change to the fight scheduling (which normally involves 8 matches, made up of all 16 contestants before moving onto the next round). As there are a couple of matchups that are best left for the final round (as discussed previously), the scheduling of matches starts to become a bit of a combination lock. I have 7 matchups scheduled, leaving two contestants left (Executioners and Trolls) who have already fought each other!

As soon as the 7 matches are calculated, I'll set these two remaining contestants up with matches (they will be completing their 14th match, as their opposition completes their 15th and final match).

Obviously, everyone will have completed all their matches in the end, but the order will be slightly wonky. I will be including the expanded standings chart with each match, so it will be easy to follow along and see who has fought and how many times... as well as the updated standings so everyone can follow along in real time ( @Lizards of Renown should enjoy that!) .

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NIGHTBRINGER said:
Obviously, everyone will have completed all their matches in the end, but the order will be slightly wonky. I will be including the expanded standings chart with each match, so it will be easy to follow along and see who has fought and how many times... as well as the updated standings so everyone can follow along in real time ( @Lizards of Renown should enjoy that!) .

Click to expand...

All for our entertainment :shamefullyembarrased::shamefullyembarrased:
thank you, kind sir!!

Grrr, Imrahil
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Going into round #14, we will have a slight change to the fight scheduling (which normally involves 8 matches, made up of all 16 contestants before moving onto the next round). As there are a couple of matchups that are best left for the final round (as discussed previously), the scheduling of matches starts to become a bit of a combination lock. I have 7 matchups scheduled, leaving two contestants left (Executioners and Trolls) who have already fought each other!

As soon as the 7 matches are calculated, I'll set these two remaining contestants up with matches (they will be completing their 14th match, as their opposition completes their 15th and final match).

Obviously, everyone will have completed all their matches in the end, but the order will be slightly wonky. I will be including the expanded standings chart with each match, so it will be easy to follow along and see who has fought and how many times... as well as the updated standings so everyone can follow along in real time ( @Lizards of Renown should enjoy that!) .

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:D you know me quite well now (with definite reference to the profile flicker exchange! HA!)

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Round #14

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Foregone conclusion.

I feel vindicated that the Skullcrushers are now joint 3rd place. I do really think they are one of the most deadly troops that you can face and this verifies it.

1+ armour save, S5 rider attacks (with ensorcelled weapons), S5 mount attacks (and stomp) with the options of +1 attacks and high movement. Pretty fearsome.

There are some obvious counters, but it doesn't change the fact they are versatile and dangerous.
 
Imrahil said:
All for our entertainment :shamefullyembarrased::shamefullyembarrased:
thank you, kind sir!!
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I am glad that it is being enjoyed! Makes all the tedious calculations worthwhile :). (even if there are only a handful of us that are following the thread, lol)

Lizards of Renown said:
:D you know me quite well now (with definite reference to the profile flicker exchange! HA!)
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:)

Lizards of Renown said:
I feel vindicated that the Skullcrushers are now joint 3rd place. I do really think they are one of the most deadly troops that you can face and this verifies it.

1+ armour save, S5 rider attacks (with ensorcelled weapons), S5 mount attacks (and stomp) with the options of +1 attacks and high movement. Pretty fearsome.
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As you say, they are a potent unit.

Curious to see where they end up. Anywhere from second to seventh place is still mathematically possible. Although second place is highly improbable.

Killer Angel said:
Pretty much agree, they were my favorite.

i fear the last match against the K'daii...
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Mine too. I thought they would just barely edge out the K'daai... oops :oops:. I honestly expected them to have a K'daai-like run through the tournament. While they are still an extremely powerful unit, I now have a bit more informed view of them.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
I am glad that it is being enjoyed! Makes all the tedious calculations worthwhile :). (even if there are only a handful of us that are following the thread, lol)
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Definitely worth it! I've already learned stuff that I can use in my 8th Edition game planning, list building and playing.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
As you say, they are a potent unit. Curious to see where they end up. Anywhere from second to seventh place is still mathematically possible. Although second place is highly improbable.
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I think third. I don't think that the Beasts will lose enough ground to give them second.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Mine too. I thought they would just barely edge out the K'daai... oops :oops:. I honestly expected them to have a K'daai-like run through the tournament. While they are still an extremely powerful unit, I now have a bit more informed view of them.
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I think that the "informed view" is pretty much the hallmark of this competition.

There's been a bunch of match-ups that really changed my viewpoint on units and rock-paper-scissors match-ups. Obviously there is always the variable of the dice gods (make sure you do the appropriate sacrifices before each game! Or suffer their wrath! :) ), but on the whole, this is a solid learning exercise that I think any could have a look through and learn something from.
 
Lizards of Renown said:
I think third. I don't think that the Beasts will lose enough ground to give them second.
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We'll have to wait and see how it does against the Destroyer.

I think that the Skullcrushers, Witch Elves, Chaos Trolls and Demigryph Knights all have a legitimate chance at capturing third. The HPA would have to get pretty lucky to do so; possible, but a bit of a longshot.

Lizards of Renown said:
Definitely worth it! I've already learned stuff that I can use in my 8th Edition game planning, list building and playing.
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Glad to hear it!!

And it looks like it's actually going to be completed... despite the hiatus and all. :D
 
Lizards of Renown said:
I'm pretty sure I predicted this one. It's the Regen save that wins it for the Beasts as well as the ASL for the Hammerers...
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Also the Hammerers have very little in the way of defense. In all three instances where the Beasts have lost in the tournament, they have lost to superior defense...
  • 1+ armour save (Skullcrushers and Demigryphs)
  • 2+ ward save (BotWD White Lions)
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Also the Hammerers have very little in the way of defense. In all three instances where the Beasts have lost in the tournament, they have lost to superior defense...
  • 1+ armour save (Skullcrushers and Demigryphs)
  • 2+ ward save (BotWD White Lions)
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Yep, it's that S4...
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
@Lizards of Renown @Killer Angel @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @Imrahil @The Great White Lizard

We have run into a slight issue... and rather than delay the tourney a couple months like last time :p:p, I figured I'd tackle it right away (with your help and feedback!!).

The issue arose in the final matchup of this round between the Skullcrushers vs. Soul Grinder. When setting up the contest the points per side were as follows:
  • 1 Soul Grinder 260 points
  • 3 Skullcrushers 244 points
Seeing that the Skullcrushers were short on points, I dropped in a musician for them bringing them to 254 points (still 6 points below the Soul Grinder). I typically don't give units in the tourney musicians, because it rarely plays a part, however in this case it changes the result of the matchup. I took look back at the Demigryph Knights and they were not given a musician even though they were just as eligible as the Skullcrushers (meaning they were also at a point disadvantage against the Soul Grinder). While I have not redone their calculations, on a quick glance I think a musician would play a huge factor in their matchup and overturn the result.

So the two options are:
  • strip the musician off the Skullcrushers and leave the Demigryph matchup as it is [i.e. neither unit has a musician]
  • keep the musician in the Skullcrusher matchup and go back and add in the musician for the Demigryphs as well [i.e. both units have a musician]
What do you think? Which way should we play it?


While we don't "list build" from one matchup to another, the addition of a musician (and possibly even a champion) seems like a fair way to balance the points between opponents when additional models can't be added because they cost too much (unlike an infantry unit where we can simply add another model).

One last thing to consider are the Mournfang, who have yet to face the Soul Grinder. Their options would be:
  • 4 Mournfang (no command models) = 280 points
  • 3 Mournfang + full command = 240 points
As you can see, balancing them vs. the Soul Grinder's 260 points is a difficult task. Keep them in mind when deciding how to proceed with the Demigryphs and Skullcrushers.
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Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
The Mournfangs are altogether trickier because both options have the same points difference with the Soul Grinder. I’d suggest doing a match with both options, and if the Mournfangs with both, they should win, if the Soul Grinder wins both (somehow) it should win, while if both units win one match it should be a draw.
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Killer Angel said:
I agree with @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
to balance the points, both Demigryphs and Skullcrushers should have the upgrade against the Soul Grinder, and the mounrfangs should run double match, with +20 and -20 pts.
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Lizards of Renown said:
If, as in the case with the Mournfang match-up, it is unable to made as equal as possible, then @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl's work out seems best. It seems that this would be a rare scenario, but I agree averaging out what happens from both of them determines the overall result. That seems the most well-rounded way of looking at it.
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The Great White Lizard said:
I think @Lizards of Renown makes a good point. I think we should try to keep points as close to possible as their totals. I also think if a unit is short on points we should give them first a musician, then a standard bearer, and then finally, if the points still don't add up, a champion. Also that we should only do this in situations where adding extra models would be problematic. I also think that we should only add rank and file if adding them does not bring them above the points total of the other unit. For example, if adding a musician would take a unit's point total from 244 to 254 when fighting a 250 point unit, a musician should not be added, even tough it would bring the points total closer to the unit they are fighting.
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NIGHTBRINGER said:
@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl , @Killer Angel , @Lizards of Renown , @The Great White Lizard thank you for the feedback. I shall proceed as advised!
  • I'll keep the musician in the Skullcrusher matchup
  • I'll go back and rework the Demigryph matchup by adding in a musician for them (which will likely change their match result)
  • Mournfang will be run in both configurations and we'll see what we get.


This is true. I shall cheer against both units in the tournament!



I should note that a standard bearer has been included in all units that can take one since the start of the tournament. Since it often plays a pivotal part in a matchup (unlike a musician who only comes into play when there is a drawn combat... at least in terms of CC) I included it as part of each units' stock setup.
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Imrahil said:
A little late to chip in:oops: but I agree with the chosen direction:D

Grrr, Imrahil
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Here we go, this problematic matchup has arrived. Soul Grinder vs. Mournfang Cavalry. As discussed, I ran multiple matchups for them, but instead of running 2, I actually ended up running 3 different matches:
  • Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 4 Mournfang Cavalry, no command [280pts]
  • Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 3 Mournfang Cavalry, full command [240pts]
  • Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 3 Mournfang Cavalry, musician + standard bearer only [230pts]

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So in all 3 matchups the Soul Grinder wins, but we're still left with:

  • 4 Mournfang Cavalry, no command [280pts] = Soul Grinder Massive Victory
  • 3 Mournfang Cavalry, full command [240pts] = Soul Grinder Massive Victory
  • 3 Mournfang Cavalry, musician + standard bearer only [230pts] = Soul Grinder regular Victory
Simply put, the Mournfang can't reliably wound the Soul Grinder, but can win combat while their Standard Bearer and Musician are alive, causing the Soul Grinder to bleed wounds via Daemonic Instability.

The first match includes no command, so the Mournfang can't win any rounds of combat and trigger the Daemonic Instability

The second match includes full command, so the Mournfang win a few rounds via their musician. However, at only three models, all of which are command models, as soon as the Mournfang lose model, that model is the Musician (because Champions are removed last, standard bearers second last and musicians third last). Once this happens they can no longer win combat rounds and trigger Daemonic Instability.

The third match only includes the musician and standard bearer command models. This is the best setup for the Mournfang as they maintain their musician + standard bearer models even after suffering their first casualty. This means they can trigger Daemonic Instability even at two models strong, giving them more rounds where the Soul Grinder is losing Daemonic Instability wounds.


I have decided that the fairest outcome for this matchup is to award the Soul Grinder with a Massive Victory. My rationale is as follows:
  • 2 of the 3 matches ended in a Massive Victory. 2 > 1
  • it was agreed that we would add command models (first musician, then champion) to best even out the points total
  • purposefully not including the champion in this matchup feels like list building in favour of the Mournfang for this specific match (which would be similar to removing ensorcelled weapons from the Skullcrushers to bypass the White Lions BotWD). This is something we decided against at the onset of the tournament.
  • the Mournfang made me run 3 sets of tedious calculations for this matchup and I want them to burn in hell!

Unless there is vehement objection to my proposed decision above, I will make it official and update the tourney. Speak now or forever hold your peace.
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
Here we go, this problematic matchup has arrived. Soul Grinder vs. Mournfang Cavalry. As discussed, I ran multiple matchups for them, but instead of running 2, I actually ended up running 3 different matches:
  • Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 4 Mournfang Cavalry, no command [280pts]
  • Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 3 Mournfang Cavalry, full command [240pts]
  • Soul Grinder [260pts] vs. 3 Mournfang Cavalry, musician + standard bearer only [230pts]

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So in all 3 matchups the Soul Grinder wins, but we're still left with:

  • 4 Mournfang Cavalry, no command [280pts] = Soul Grinder Massive Victory
  • 3 Mournfang Cavalry, full command [240pts] = Soul Grinder Massive Victory
  • 3 Mournfang Cavalry, musician + standard bearer only [230pts] = Soul Grinder regular Victory
Simply put, the Mournfang can't reliably wound the Soul Grinder, but can win combat while their Standard Bearer and Musician are alive, causing the Soul Grinder to bleed wounds via Daemonic Instability.

The first match includes no command, so the Mournfang can't win any rounds of combat and trigger the Daemonic Instability

The second match includes full command, so the Mournfang win a few rounds via their musician. However, at only three models, all of which are command models, as soon as the Mournfang lose model, that model is the Musician (because Champions are removed last, standard bearers second last and musicians third last). Once this happens they can no longer win combat rounds and trigger Daemonic Instability.

The third match only includes the musician and standard bearer command models. This is the best setup for the Mournfang as they maintain their musician + standard bearer models even after suffering their first casualty. This means they can trigger Daemonic Instability even at two models strong, giving them more rounds where the Soul Grinder is losing Daemonic Instability wounds.


I have decided that the fairest outcome for this matchup is to award the Soul Grinder with a Massive Victory. My rationale is as follows:
  • 2 of the 3 matches ended in a Massive Victory. 2 > 1
  • it was agreed that we would add command models (first musician, then champion) to best even out the points total
  • purposefully not including the champion in this matchup feels like list building in favour of the Mournfang for this specific match (which would be similar to removing ensorcelled weapons from the Skullcrushers to bypass the White Lions BotWD). This is something we decided against at the onset of the tournament.
  • the Mournfang made me run 3 sets of tedious calculations for this matchup and I want them to burn in hell!

Unless there is vehement objection to my proposed decision above, I will make it official and update the tourney. Speak now or forever hold your peace.
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Sadly (for the little kittens), it has to be a massive victory since this whole contest is about averages.

Poor, poor little Thundercats...

They probably would have done better with GW (but no ironfists) in this match-up... ah, well. I probably would field them with ironfist if I'm going up against DoC anyways so I guess it doesn't really matter.
 
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