8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[Killer Angel]

Chaos trolls are, indeed, a very strong opponent. But in a real game, every army got at least one flaming attack that would be directed on them.
With this contest running in a sort of vacuum, they will perform much better than they normally would.
Solid contender for the victory.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Chaos trolls are, indeed, a very strong opponent. But in a real game, every army got at least one flaming attack that would be directed on them.
With this contest running in a sort of vacuum, they will perform much better than they normally would.
Solid contender for the victory.

Exactly, including the fact that their stupidity and lack of movement makes a difference on which combat match-up they can be gotten into.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Chaos trolls are, indeed, a very strong opponent. But in a real game, every army got at least one flaming attack that would be directed on them.
With this contest running in a sort of vacuum, they will perform much better than they normally would.
Solid contender for the victory.

This is an excellent example of the necessity to have tactics and strategy as a general as well as a knowledge of the math-hammer.

In fact, a key point of general'ing is predicting/guesstimating what troops the opponent will be bringing, what counters he can employ to them and what his overall battle strategy should be. Then he can predict, based on his knowledge of the math-hammer, what match-ups he wants to create and how this fits into his own strategy.

I have always felt that you need to watch out for being too "reactive" in your work out of the army and is something that I need to constantly remind myself of, as if you are only going on what the other person is taking and not laying out some tactic of your own, then you will be effect of whatever your opponent has planned.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Chaos trolls are, indeed, a very strong opponent. But in a real game, every army got at least one flaming attack that would be directed on them.
With this contest running in a sort of vacuum, they will perform much better than they normally would.
Solid contender for the victory.

That is a solid point. One of the things we don't get the opportunity to explore with such a limited experimental setup are a unit's other mitigating factors.

• Trolls - stupidity, weakness to flaming attacks
• Witch Elves - vulnerability to shooting, especially templates, frenzy baiting
• Skullcrushers - frenzy baiting
• K'daai - flaming attack resistance (Dragonbane Gem, Dragon Helm)

In contrast, a unit like the Demigryph Knights don't have any of those weaknesses. It is something to consider beyond just the matchup record of wins and losses.

In fact, a key point of general'ing is predicting/guesstimating what troops the opponent will be bringing, what counters he can employ to them and what his overall battle strategy should be. Then he can predict, based on his knowledge of the math-hammer, what match-ups he wants to create and how this fits into his own strategy.

Agreed. Math-hammer lets you decipher what is your rock to your opponent's scissor, your paper to your opponent's rock, and so on. Once you are armed with that information, your goal is to setup those interactions in game.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Match time! This time around we pit the Witch Elves against the Soul Grinder...

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• Soul Grinder: Caught by the Claw, Daemonic

What can be said? The Witch Elves proved very quickly that the poor Soul Grinder was a one pump chump. The Witch Elves' poison, re-rolling of misses and huge number of attacks simply overwhelmed the Soul Grinder's defenses. This was the closest we've gotten to a flawless victory (which in a math-hammer setup can only be achieved by wiping out the opponent in the first round before they even get to strike). At least the Daemonic Instability put the poor Soul Grinder out of its misery, because otherwise it was going to die immediately at the start of the second round.

I think a lot of people are sleeping on the Witch Elves. They could be the dark horse of this tournament. Sure they'll lose against the heavily armoured units, but I'd be shocked to find them in the bottom three when this is all said and done.


And with that the Witch Elves join the Chaos Trolls with two Massive Victories...




Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time! This time around we pit the Witch Elves against the Soul Grinder...

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• Soul Grinder: Caught by the Claw, Daemonic

View attachment 81007

What can be said? The Witch Elves proved very quickly that the poor Soul Grinder was a one pump chump. The Witch Elves' poison, re-rolling of misses and huge number of attacks simply overwhelmed the Soul Grinder's defenses. This was the closest we've gotten to a flawless victory (which in a math-hammer setup can only be achieved by wiping out the opponent in the first round before they even get to strike). At least the Daemonic Instability put the poor Soul Grinder out of its misery, because otherwise it was going to die immediately at the start of the second round.

I think a lot of people are sleeping on the Witch Elves. They could be the dark horse of this tournament. Sure they'll lose against the heavily armoured units, but I'd be shocked to find them in the bottom three when this is all said and done.


And with that the Witch Elves join the Chaos Trolls with two Massive Victories...

View attachment 81008


Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Match time! This time around we pit the Witch Elves against the Soul Grinder...

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• Soul Grinder: Caught by the Claw, Daemonic

View attachment 81007

What can be said? The Witch Elves proved very quickly that the poor Soul Grinder was a one pump chump. The Witch Elves' poison, re-rolling of misses and huge number of attacks simply overwhelmed the Soul Grinder's defenses. This was the closest we've gotten to a flawless victory (which in a math-hammer setup can only be achieved by wiping out the opponent in the first round before they even get to strike). At least the Daemonic Instability put the poor Soul Grinder out of its misery, because otherwise it was going to die immediately at the start of the second round.

I think a lot of people are sleeping on the Witch Elves. They could be the dark horse of this tournament. Sure they'll lose against the heavily armoured units, but I'd be shocked to find them in the bottom three when this is all said and done.


And with that the Witch Elves join the Chaos Trolls with two Massive Victories...

View attachment 81008


Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

This highlights the weaknesses of monsters versus infantry units, the power of high amounts of attacks and the usefulness of poison against monsters.

I am pleasantly surprised on this match-up. And I do not think that the Witch Elves will end up being last by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Time for another match! I hope you weren't looking forward to a back and fourth hard fought battle. It's the White Lions of Chrace versus the Beasts of Nurgle.

Key rules in play:

• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration
• White Lions of Chrace: Banner of the World Dragon!, Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

This is going to be a very simple summary... Banner of the World Dragon. Absolute filth.





Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time! This time around we pit the Witch Elves against the Soul Grinder...

Key rules in play:

• Witch Elves: ASF, Frenzy, Murderous Prowess, Poisoned Attacks
• Soul Grinder: Caught by the Claw, Daemonic

View attachment 81007

What can be said? The Witch Elves proved very quickly that the poor Soul Grinder was a one pump chump. The Witch Elves' poison, re-rolling of misses and huge number of attacks simply overwhelmed the Soul Grinder's defenses. This was the closest we've gotten to a flawless victory (which in a math-hammer setup can only be achieved by wiping out the opponent in the first round before they even get to strike). At least the Daemonic Instability put the poor Soul Grinder out of its misery, because otherwise it was going to die immediately at the start of the second round.

I think a lot of people are sleeping on the Witch Elves. They could be the dark horse of this tournament. Sure they'll lose against the heavily armoured units, but I'd be shocked to find them in the bottom three when this is all said and done.


And with that the Witch Elves join the Chaos Trolls with two Massive Victories...

View attachment 81008


Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

This is actually a good exercise in "hazardous waste disposal", by which I mean there are units that in the right circumstances are absolutely deadly and can cause untold destruction but most of them can be fairly easily disposed of in the correct manner.

Witch Elves is a classic example. You want a good, high-volume ballistic attack (let's face it, at T3 and no armour) or high armour save. Or something like a Kroak bomb.

But if you get on the wrong end of that it is very dangerous.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Time for another match! I hope you weren't looking forward to a back and fourth hard fought battle. It's the White Lions of Chrace versus the Beasts of Nurgle.

Key rules in play:

• Beasts of Nurgle: Daemon of Nurgle, Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Random Attacks (D6+1), Regeneration
• White Lions of Chrace: Banner of the World Dragon!, Martial Prowess, Stubborn, ASF and ASL cancel each other out

View attachment 81028

This is going to be a very simple summary... Banner of the World Dragon. Absolute filth.



View attachment 81029

Most importantly... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

That is a very broken magic item.

I'm looking forwards to them against the Witch Elves.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

This is actually a good exercise in "hazardous waste disposal", by which I mean there are units that in the right circumstances are absolutely deadly and can cause untold destruction but most of them can be fairly easily disposed of in the correct manner.

Witch Elves is a classic example. You want a good, high-volume ballistic attack (let's face it, at T3 and no armour) or high armour save. Or something like a Kroak bomb.

But if you get on the wrong end of that it is very dangerous.

That is true. Witch Elves definitely do better against armies with limited ranged capabilities.

Kroak-bomb, templates, Khalida-star and the like mess them up in very short order. Mind you, that you can boost the Witch Elves defense with the Cauldron of Blood, which gives them a 5+ ward save. It's not exactly an ironclad defense, but it does help! The Cauldron of Blood also increase their offensive prowess.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That is a very broken magic item.

I'm looking forwards to them against the Witch Elves.

I'm betting heavily on the Witch Elves in that matchup!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I'm betting heavily on the Witch Elves in that matchup!

Me too. If only to see the snotty high Elves get their comeuppance!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Me too. If only to see the snotty high Elves get their comeuppance!

And I'm sure that the Witch Elves will happily oblige your request! Those Dark Elves and High Elves really don't like each other.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

And I'm sure that the Witch Elves will happily oblige your request! Those Dark Elves and High Elves really don't like each other.

Oh yeah! Re-rolls to hit because of hatred! Brutal. Can't wait!!!

 

[Killer Angel]

That is true. Witch Elves definitely do better against armies with limited ranged capabilities.

Kroak-bomb, templates, Khalida-star and the like mess them up in very short order. Mind you, that you can boost the Witch Elves defense with the Cauldron of Blood, which gives them a 5+ ward save. It's not exactly an ironclad defense, but it does help! The Cauldron of Blood also increase their offensive prowess.

That's probably the reason why i ranked them poorly (not the last place, but near the bottom).
Faced them twice, with dwarfs and TK with khalida, and they were just an easy target.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

That's probably the reason why i ranked them poorly (not the last place, but near the bottom).
Faced them twice, with dwarfs and TK with khalida, and they were just an easy target.

I played a combo game with me as WoC and my friend with his Dark Elves, against our other friend with Orc's and Goblins.

He didn't take enough shooty stuff and didn't use any of the sacrificial units (fanatics, Mangler Squigs, etc.) on them and even though they were a bitdamaged on the way over, they destroyed all three units they got into combat with. He had a Hag with them so they got additional Frenzy attacks and AHW.

Funnily enough they also took on a Troll unit, won the combat, broke them and ran them down destroying them utterly.

Definitely had some good luck, but just to show they're pretty dangerous.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Oh yeah! Re-rolls to hit because of hatred! Brutal. Can't wait!!!

The Witch Elves do have Hatred(High Elves), although in this case they don't really need it. The Witch Elves will get to re-roll their misses in every round because they have ASF + higher initiative (I6 vs. I5). Remember that the White Lions' ASF is cancelled out by their GW's ASL.

Faced them twice, with dwarfs and TK with khalida, and they were just an easy target.

That will do it! Especially if they don't have the Cauldron of Blood's 5+ ward.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Time for another matchup. The cream of the crop from the WoC vs. the savage horde. Skullcrushers versus Savage Orc Big'Uns!

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, Mark of Khorne (Frenzy, rider only)
• Savage Orc Big'uns: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

Order of striking (for the purposes of determining how many models are left to counterattack):

1. Skullcrushers (riders)
2. Savage Orcs AND Juggernauts simultaneously
3. Stomp

The Skullcrushers come out with a Victory, but not a Massive Victory. They had 7.3 wounds remaining, and the cutoff for a Massive Victory was 7.5. So they literally missed the mark by 0.2 wounds... but those are the rules!

As for the Savage Orcs, this is there second loss in a row, but in both matches they were able to bring their opponent down to below 50%. Maybe this will be the trend with them. You can beat them, but they will make you earn it. The Savage Orcs are devastating in the first round of combat when they are at +1 strength (choppas) and +1 attack (frenzy). The Choppas rule is only in effect in the first round of any combat, and in both of their matches so far, they were beaten in the first round, thus losing their frenzy. Once those two rules are no longer in effect, their output drops noticeably. It will be interesting to see how they do if they can win the first round of a combat, and thereby hang onto their Frenzy.

And with that, the Skullcrushers, while still undefeated, fall out of first place. The Witch Elves and the Chaos Trolls lead the way with two Massive Victories each. Things are getting interesting!!!



And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Time for another matchup. The cream of the crop from the WoC vs. the savage horde. Skullcrushers versus Savage Orc Big'Uns!

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, Mark of Khorne (Frenzy, rider only)
• Savage Orc Big'uns: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

Order of striking (for the purposes of determining how many models are left to counterattack):

1. Skullcrushers (riders)
2. Savage Orcs AND Juggernauts simultaneously
3. Stomp

View attachment 81043

The Skullcrushers come out with a Victory, but not a Massive Victory. They had 7.3 wounds remaining, and the cutoff for a Massive Victory was 7.5. So they literally missed the mark by 0.2 wounds... but those are the rules!

As for the Savage Orcs, this is there second loss in a row, but in both matches they were able to bring their opponent down to below 50%. Maybe this will be the trend with them. You can beat them, but they will make you earn it. The Savage Orcs are devastating in the first round of combat when they are at +1 strength (choppas) and +1 attack (frenzy). The Choppas rule is only in effect in the first round of any combat, and in both of their matches so far, they were beaten in the first round, thus losing their frenzy. Once those two rules are no longer in effect, their output drops noticeably. It will be interesting to see how they do if they can win the first round of a combat, and thereby hang onto their Frenzy.

And with that, the Skullcrushers, while still undefeated, fall out of first place. The Witch Elves and the Chaos Trolls lead the way with two Massive Victories each. Things are getting interesting!!!

View attachment 81042

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

I thought Mark of Khorne gives +1 strength when charging? Not frenzy? Or did I misduplicate your post...

EDIT: Got confused between Daemons of Chaos and Warriors of Chaos rules. Fair enough.

Interesting fight and summary. Will do a full post later.

 

[Killer Angel]

I think that we'll see a valid trend after each unit will have fought 4 battles.