8th Ed. The BEST close combat units in all of Warhammer.

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Interesting fight and summary. Will do a full post later.

I look forward to it!

I think that we'll see a valid trend after each unit will have fought 4 battles.

Agreed. I'm probably just getting a little excited and prematurely trying to spot a trend with only 2 data points. We need a few more battles.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Match time... and it is an interesting one!! Chaos Warriors vs. Black Guard of Naggarond

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Black Guard: ASF, Eternal Hatred, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

That's got to be the upset of the tournament thus far. A huge result for the Black Guard and instantly justifying their inclusion in the tournament (good call @Lizards of Renown !). It also VERY likely means that @Killer Angel and @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER will be correct in their prediction that the Aracknarok Spider will come in last place. Furthermore, if the Black Guard can beat the Chaos Warriors then it means that the other infantry units on this list are vulnerable to them as well.

The key difference was the fact that the Black Guard got to strike before the Chaos Warriors. Their opening salvo simply did too much damage and the Chaos Warriors didn't have the numbers left to grind them down. Re-rolling misses offset the Mark of Nurgle. Murderous Prowess helped their S4 to wound. Lastly, Chaos Warriors without shields are not as well armoured as some people believe them to be. The MoT sword and board variant would likely have fared better. The Chaos Warriors clearly have a better stat line, but the Black Guard were able to overcome it with their special rules. So which other infantry units will best the Chaos Warriors? I believe the Witch Elves will, but can anyone else pull it off? Savage Orcs?

Perhaps this will help shed a more realistic light on the Chaos Warriors. Great... yes, unbeatable... no. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl



And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Match time... and it is an interesting one!! Chaos Warriors vs. Black Guard of Naggarond

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Black Guard: ASF, Eternal Hatred, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

View attachment 81065


That's got to be the upset of the tournament thus far. A huge result for the Black Guard and instantly justifying their inclusion in the tournament (good call @Lizards of Renown !). It also VERY likely means that @Killer Angel and @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER will be correct in their prediction that the Aracknarok Spider will come in last place. Furthermore, if the Black Guard can beat the Chaos Warriors then it means that the other infantry units on this list are vulnerable to them as well.

The key difference was the fact that the Black Guard got to strike before the Chaos Warriors. Their opening salvo simply did too much damage and the Chaos Warriors didn't have the numbers left to grind them down. Re-rolling misses offset the Mark of Nurgle. Murderous Prowess helped their S4 to wound. Lastly, Chaos Warriors without shields are not as well armoured as some people believe them to be. The MoT sword and board variant would likely have fared better. The Chaos Warriors clearly have a better stat line, but the Black Guard were able to overcome it with their special rules. So which other infantry units will best the Chaos Warriors? I believe the Witch Elves will, but can anyone else pull it off? Savage Orcs?

Perhaps this will help shed a more realistic light on the Chaos Warriors. Great... yes, unbeatable... no. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

View attachment 81066

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

This is for the Mark of Nurgle Warriors that @Lizards of Renown so dislikes - I would have gone for Mark of Khorne Warriors with Extra Hand Weapons for this tournament (should have said before it started so they could have been included too) for a crazy 4 Initiative 5 Strength 4 attacks each, and that’s the combo I hate the most. I’m surprised the Black Guard had that many attacks, I always thought they had 1 Attack each. Ah well, every day’s a school day (it’s also rather worrying for my Dwarfs )

Concerning who’d beat the Mark of Nurgle Warriors, I think my Hammerers would stand a better chance against these than other Chaos Warrior builds as they strike at the same time and would ignore their Armour Save with their Strength 6 Hammers. True Mark of Nurgle forces them to hit on 5s but they have Stubborn so are always assumed to pass in your tests, so like the Black Guard they will never run. If the Nurgle Warriors do win it’d only be a Victory rather than a massive victory. I still think Witch Elves will struggle against them due to having to wound on 5s with their regular attacks and the Nurgle Warriors getting their full 4+ save. Big’Uns would get to go first but would be hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s with the Nurgle Warriors getting their full save, while the Nurgl Warriors would hit on 3s and wound on 2s with the Savage Orcs getting only their Warpaint save, so I don’t think Savage Orcs will beat them. Har Ganeth Executioners are likely to win thanks to Murderous Prowess and Eternal Hatred, and White Lions of Chrace also have a good chance.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Time for another matchup. The cream of the crop from the WoC vs. the savage horde. Skullcrushers versus Savage Orc Big'Uns!

Key rules in play:

• Skullcrushers: Brass Behemoth, Mark of Khorne (Frenzy, rider only)
• Savage Orc Big'uns: Choppas, Frenzy, Warpaint

Order of striking (for the purposes of determining how many models are left to counterattack):

1. Skullcrushers (riders)
2. Savage Orcs AND Juggernauts simultaneously
3. Stomp

View attachment 81043

The Skullcrushers come out with a Victory, but not a Massive Victory. They had 7.3 wounds remaining, and the cutoff for a Massive Victory was 7.5. So they literally missed the mark by 0.2 wounds... but those are the rules!

As for the Savage Orcs, this is there second loss in a row, but in both matches they were able to bring their opponent down to below 50%. Maybe this will be the trend with them. You can beat them, but they will make you earn it. The Savage Orcs are devastating in the first round of combat when they are at +1 strength (choppas) and +1 attack (frenzy). The Choppas rule is only in effect in the first round of any combat, and in both of their matches so far, they were beaten in the first round, thus losing their frenzy. Once those two rules are no longer in effect, their output drops noticeably. It will be interesting to see how they do if they can win the first round of a combat, and thereby hang onto their Frenzy.

And with that, the Skullcrushers, while still undefeated, fall out of first place. The Witch Elves and the Chaos Trolls lead the way with two Massive Victories each. Things are getting interesting!!!

View attachment 81042

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

So I have to admit that I wasn't factoring in the low points cost of the Witch Elves, enabling them to have possibly the largest infantry unit for this competition.

Again, in just straight up fighting and in isolation, they are quite deadly and will definitely not come last. There is really, really, really something to be said for the huge number of attacks.

Case in point is the Savage Orc match-up here, I'm not even sure what I was expecting to happen but I guess I was expecting the Skullcrushers to cruise through which they did... kind of. Interesting that they took quite a beating from the Savage Orcs. It's definitely true that they can be beaten but then the unit that did it will be depleted in numbers and unlikely to be a major problem for another unit to handle.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time... and it is an interesting one!! Chaos Warriors vs. Black Guard of Naggarond

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Black Guard: ASF, Eternal Hatred, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

View attachment 81065


That's got to be the upset of the tournament thus far. A huge result for the Black Guard and instantly justifying their inclusion in the tournament (good call @Lizards of Renown !). It also VERY likely means that @Killer Angel and @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER will be correct in their prediction that the Aracknarok Spider will come in last place. Furthermore, if the Black Guard can beat the Chaos Warriors then it means that the other infantry units on this list are vulnerable to them as well.

The key difference was the fact that the Black Guard got to strike before the Chaos Warriors. Their opening salvo simply did too much damage and the Chaos Warriors didn't have the numbers left to grind them down. Re-rolling misses offset the Mark of Nurgle. Murderous Prowess helped their S4 to wound. Lastly, Chaos Warriors without shields are not as well armoured as some people believe them to be. The MoT sword and board variant would likely have fared better. The Chaos Warriors clearly have a better stat line, but the Black Guard were able to overcome it with their special rules. So which other infantry units will best the Chaos Warriors? I believe the Witch Elves will, but can anyone else pull it off? Savage Orcs?

Perhaps this will help shed a more realistic light on the Chaos Warriors. Great... yes, unbeatable... no. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

View attachment 81066

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Wow! Now this was unexpected! Definitely true @NIGHTBRINGER that this is the biggest upset so far in the tournament!

I wasn't sure that I had picked the best Dark Elf units to be honest, but I am proved right by the two massive victories of the Witch Elves and now the Black Guard winning over the WoC who I thought for sure were contenders for the throne. I guess we'll see how this progresses.

This is actually fascinating for the math-hammer.

I guess from playing Lizardmen the Mark of Nurgle is the most intimidating thing about Chaos but I wasn't factoring in high, high numbers of attacks. Makes me think about playing Saurus with Spears rather than the sword and board option... Probably a better option with larger Saurus units. Itching to try it out now!

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl I agree fully that the MoK and AHW build is also fearsome, but again it's situational. Fantastic against an Orc army, but not against an army with higher armour saves.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Match time... and it is an interesting one!! Chaos Warriors vs. Black Guard of Naggarond

Key rules in play:

• Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
• Black Guard: ASF, Eternal Hatred, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

View attachment 81065


That's got to be the upset of the tournament thus far. A huge result for the Black Guard and instantly justifying their inclusion in the tournament (good call @Lizards of Renown !). It also VERY likely means that @Killer Angel and @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER will be correct in their prediction that the Aracknarok Spider will come in last place. Furthermore, if the Black Guard can beat the Chaos Warriors then it means that the other infantry units on this list are vulnerable to them as well.

The key difference was the fact that the Black Guard got to strike before the Chaos Warriors. Their opening salvo simply did too much damage and the Chaos Warriors didn't have the numbers left to grind them down. Re-rolling misses offset the Mark of Nurgle. Murderous Prowess helped their S4 to wound. Lastly, Chaos Warriors without shields are not as well armoured as some people believe them to be. The MoT sword and board variant would likely have fared better. The Chaos Warriors clearly have a better stat line, but the Black Guard were able to overcome it with their special rules. So which other infantry units will best the Chaos Warriors? I believe the Witch Elves will, but can anyone else pull it off? Savage Orcs?

Perhaps this will help shed a more realistic light on the Chaos Warriors. Great... yes, unbeatable... no. @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl

View attachment 81066

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Like @Killer Angel said, we will see how things pan out as there isn't enough data yet.

Still... The fact that the Witch Elves and Chaos Trolls are sitting at two massive victories each is a bit of a surprise to me. Good call from @NIGHTBRINGER to include the Witch Elves in the line-up!

 

[Killer Angel]

Chaos Warriors: Mark of Nurgle
Black Guard: ASF, Eternal Hatred, Murderous Prowess, Stubborn

That's got to be the upset of the tournament thus far. A huge result for the Black Guard and instantly justifying their inclusion in the tournament

Wow. I knew that Black Guards wasn't that bad, but this wictory was, indeed, unexpected. Nasty boys.

Still... The fact that the Witch Elves and Chaos Trolls are sitting at two massive victories each is a bit of a surprise to me. Good call from @NIGHTBRINGER to include the Witch Elves in the line-up!

Chaos Trolls are not a big surprise, i knew they were good. Witch Elves are more a surprise, but that was mostly due to the fact that my past experience with them was almost a cakewalk due to lucky circumstances, so i underestimated them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Concerning who’d beat the Mark of Nurgle Warriors, I think my Hammerers would stand a better chance against these than other Chaos Warrior builds as they strike at the same time and would ignore their Armour Save with their Strength 6 Hammers.

Big’Uns would get to go first but would be hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s with the Nurgle Warriors getting their full save,

The Nurgle Warriors are armed with Halberds, so they are striking at initiative 5, well before the Hammerers or the Savage Orcs. The Savage Orc vs. Nurgle Warriors matchup is going to be a blood bath, damage will be inflicted by both sides! It will come down to how much damage the Savage Orcs can inflict in the first round when their Choppa's give them S5. So they'll be wounding on 3's and leaving the Chaos Warriors with only a 6+ armour save. Obviously in subsequent rounds they'll need 4's to wound and the CW will have a 5+ armour save.

So I have to admit that I wasn't factoring in the low points cost of the Witch Elves, enabling them to have possibly the largest infantry unit for this competition.

The Witch Elves and the Savage Orc Big'Uns are the cheapest models in our tourney, each clocking in at 11 points.

Makes me think about playing Saurus with Spears rather than the sword and board option

Some people prefer that option, I myself like the trusty hand weapon and shield combo. Spears become useless once a unit is reduced to two ranks or less, while the parry save works down to the last man (or lizard).

@Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl I agree fully that the MoK and AHW build is also fearsome, but again it's situational. Fantastic against an Orc army, but not against an army with higher armour saves.

I think you are correct, it is a trade off. Better in some matches but worse in others. Also remember that the MoN or the MoT are both permanent, while Frenzy can be lost. In actual game terms, outside the confines our our tournament, Frenzy also carries with it other downsides.

Good call from @NIGHTBRINGER to include the Witch Elves in the line-up!

They have a really good interplay of rules and stats that make them particularly potent... as long as the opponent doesn't have extremely good armour.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Last matchup of the second round. Both of these units are coming off of Massive Losses in the first round. It's the Mournfang Cavalry versus the Hell Pit Abomination.

Key rules in play:

• Mournfang Cavalry: Thick Skinned
• Hell Pit Abomination: Regeneration (4+), Special Close Combat attacks

Just a very quick note on the Flailing Fists attack of the Hell Pit. When it inflicts an unsaved wound on a unit (which it did), that unit suffers -1 To Hit for the remainder of the close combat phase. This didn't come into play in our last Hell Pit matchup because the Witch Elves struck first, so this part of the rule made no difference. In this match though it does. However, since there is only a 1/3 chance that the Hell Pit to attacks with Failing Fists, the -1 To Hit was only applied to 1/3 of the Mournfang Cavalry's attacks (both rider and mount), remaining 2/3 of the attacks are carried out as normal. You'll see two separate rows in the calculation table to account for this distinction.

Also note, that in order to help even out points, the Mournfang have an extra attack from a unit champ in this matchup.

Okay, on with the show...



The Hell Pit ends its losing streak, and moves into the win column... a massive victory at that! The Hell Pit is a potent monster, especially when considering that it only costs 235 points. At that point value, the Mournfang could only field three models, of which they lost one even before it got to strike. In the end the Mournfang could not put enough damage through. Even if they had made their break test, they would be wiped out in the next round.

The Hell Pit Abomination is one of the wild cards in this tournament. With its varied set of attacks it is difficult to predict how it will do.



Each unit now had two matches in the bag. The Chaos Trolls and Witch Elves are the only two units to remain perfect, each with two massive victories. Bringing up the rear is the lackluster Aracknarok Spider and surprisingly the Mournfang Cavalry.

What will the third round of matches bring us? Tune in to find out!!

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

And as a special treat, @Mrs. NIGHTBRINGER has just picked all the matchups (pretty much at random) for round 3!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

If the Nurgle Warriors do win it’d only be a Victory rather than a massive victory.

Yeah, stubborn units typically take their toll on their opponents!

I still think Witch Elves will struggle against them due to having to wound on 5s with their regular attacks and the Nurgle Warriors getting their full 4+ save. Big’Uns would get to go first but would be hitting on 5s and wounding on 4s with the Nurgle Warriors getting their full save, while the Nurgl Warriors would hit on 3s and wound on 2s with the Savage Orcs getting only their Warpaint save, so I don’t think Savage Orcs will beat them. Har Ganeth Executioners are likely to win thanks to Murderous Prowess and Eternal Hatred, and White Lions of Chrace also have a good chance.

I guess its no surprise that as usual, we are in complete disagreement. LOL

I think the two remaining infantry units that have the greatest chance of beating the Chaos Warriors are:

• Witch Elves
• Savage Orc Big'uns

And you're going with the complete opposite:

• Executioners
• White Lions

Time will tell, which (if any) of us is correct!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Here we go, the start of round 3! First up we have a battle of monsters. The K'daai Destroyer versus the Arachnarok Spider!

Key rules in play:

• K'daai Destroyer: Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Frenzy (D3 Attacks)
• Arachnarok Spider: Natural Armor (4+), Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge

Well, what can be said. Sure the Arachnarok costs 35 points less, but considering the fact the that the K'daai could have easily beaten a pair of Arachnaroks at the same time says it all. The Spider is completely outclassed by the Dawi-Zhaar creation. The only reason the Spider could even manage to wound the K'daai was due to its poisoned attacks (and the D6 wounds of its Venom Surge attack). Unfortunately (for the Spider), 8 poisoned attacks simply isn't enough to bring down the K'daai Destroyer.

So the K'daai picks up its second Massive Victory to go alongside of its single loss, while the Aracknarok now has three Massive Loses in a row.



And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Here we go, the start of round 3! First up we have a battle of monsters. The K'daai Destroyer versus the Arachnarok Spider!

Key rules in play:

• K'daai Destroyer: Blazing Body, Bound Fire Daemon, Frenzy (D3 Attacks)
• Arachnarok Spider: Natural Armor (4+), Poisoned Attacks, Stubborn, Venom Surge

View attachment 81097

Well, what can be said. Sure the Arachnarok costs 35 points less, but considering the fact the that the K'daai could have easily beaten a pair of Arachnaroks at the same time says it all. The Spider is completely outclassed by the Dawi-Zhaar creation. The only reason the Spider could even manage to wound the K'daai was due to its poisoned attacks (and the D6 wounds of its Venom Surge attack). Unfortunately (for the Spider), 8 poisoned attacks simply isn't enough to bring down the K'daai Destroyer.

So the K'daai picks up its second Massive Victory to go alongside of its single loss, while the Aracknarok now has three Massive Loses in a row.

View attachment 81098

And as always... Thoughts? Concerns? Discussion!!

Poor, poor little spider... why are these meanies so mean to you...

Well, it's certainly looking like the Aracknarok Spider is heading for the bottom of the table.

Keeping in mind that we have compiled (what we think is) the best of the best combat units, it's still true that the Aracknarok can be very dangerous when used correctly.

It's a shame that there isn't a way to synthesize how a good general can use units in battle... but I guess that's why we have our category of math-hammer because a good general gets the most out of a synergized army list and not based on which "best units" can be fielded.

(See my earlier comments about a friend who plays Dark Elves, loses most of the time as he just wants to field his "favourite units")

The most powerful builds I've seen and most effective armies are those whose individual parts complement each other and so they end up far more powerful than each unit viewed in isolation, which is the liability of this contest.

That all said, this is the most fun I've had outside of playing an actual WFB! Keep 'em coming @NIGHTBRINGER !

 

[Killer Angel]

I'm wondering if we'l be able to see a draw... (not that i was expecting one in the last match )

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Keeping in mind that we have compiled (what we think is) the best of the best combat units, it's still true that the Aracknarok can be very dangerous when used correctly.

That's a good point, all of these are the best of the best. Someone has to come in last. The question is, will it be on straight loses, or can they nab a win off of someone?

That all said, this is the most fun I've had outside of playing an actual WFB! Keep 'em coming @NIGHTBRINGER !

I am glad you're enjoying it!!

I'm wondering if we'l be able to see a draw... (not that i was expecting one in the last match )

I've wondered the same thing. The Stars would really have to align. And if not, I'm curious about what the closest match will be.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

That's a good point, all of these are the best of the best. Someone has to come in last. The question is, will it be on straight loses, or can they nab a win off of someone?

I think that it may have some kind of a victory against another monster. I don't see it doing well against any of the infantry or cavalry...

Otherwise, it is also worth keeping in mind units that have other abilities that can be used on the battlefield. The ones that spring to mind are the Soul Grinder (which has as a dual role as a movable heavy artillery weapon) and the Mournfang Cavalry (with their brutal impact hits, D3 hits each S5).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think that it may have some kind of a victory against another monster. I don't see it doing well against any of the infantry or cavalry...

It still has the Hell Pit and the Soul Grinder to fight. We all knew it was going to lose to the K'daai Destroyer.

I think that it may have some kind of a victory against another monster. I don't see it doing well against any of the infantry or cavalry...

Otherwise, it is also worth keeping in mind units that have other abilities that can be used on the battlefield. The ones that spring to mind are the Soul Grinder (which has as a dual role as a movable heavy artillery weapon) and the Mournfang Cavalry (with their brutal impact hits, D3 hits each S5).

Indeed. The Spider brings with it a few nice bonuses, some innate and others as upgrades:

• It's fast. Movement 7, Forest Strider, Obstacle Strider, Swiftstride, Wall-crawler
• Terror causer
• Its 8 crew members have short bows
• light stone thrower upgrade
• Catchweb Spidershrine upgrade (friendly wizards within 12" add 2+ to their channeling attempts)

 

[Lizards of Renown]

It still has the Hell Pit and the Soul Grinder to fight. We all knew it was going to lose to the K'daai Destroyer.

Definitely. With all its special rules, the K'daai Destroyer was always going to be a contender for top or at least top five.

Indeed. The Spider brings with it a few nice bonuses, some innate and others as upgrades:

• It's fast. Movement 7, Forest Strider, Obstacle Strider, Swiftstride, Wall-crawler
• Terror causer
• Its 8 crew members have short bows
• light stone thrower upgrade
• Catchweb Spidershrine upgrade (friendly wizards within 12" add 2+ to their channeling attempts)

Great points. Forgot about the magic upgrade on channeling (and don't forget if a Shaman is mounted on it, they have the Loremaster (Little Waagh) rule as well).

I always thought of the light stone thrower as a ridiculous addition since you want the Arachnarok into combat asap.

But yes, fast as well. Good to get it into a flanking position rapidly.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Working on a strange matchup. Having to look at alternate unit formations. Results won't be out until much later today.

 

[Killer Angel]

Definitely. With all its special rules, the K'daai Destroyer was always going to be a contender for top or at least top five.



Great points. Forgot about the magic upgrade on channeling (and don't forget if a Shaman is mounted on it, they have the Loremaster (Little Waagh) rule as well).

I always thought of the light stone thrower as a ridiculous addition since you want the Arachnarok into combat asap.

But yes, fast as well. Good to get it into a flanking position rapidly.

The arachnarok is a very strong monster. It's that this match up negates many of its utilities.