8th Ed. Underused rare options

[Ondjage]

Salamanders are popular, ancient stegadons are popular.

No one ever seems to include razordons or troglodons in their lists.

How many points would you pay for a troglodon?

How many points would you pay for a razordon?


Without any change of the rules for these units, what are they worth to you? Saying that "I would never use the troglodon in my army, it sucks" is not a true statement - if it were to cost 80 points it would be included in every damn list ever, so where is the threshold?


Personally I would pay 150 points for a troglodon and 45 points for a razordon =)

 

[Ixt]

I'm alright with 200 for a Troglodon. It gets a lot of hate because, frankly, a lot of people

JUST

DON'T

GET IT.

Now, that said: I think that in our current meta, Monster unit types just kind of suck compared to, say, anything else. They're just not monster-y enough.

Anyway, Razordons: I love 'em, but they are overpriced for what they do. As far as Monstrous Beasts go, they're pretty average-ly priced.

Still, if they had Armor Piercing or 'Strength as User' for their shots, or BS4, or just... anything else... they'd be better matched with their description. Right now, it's another case of the fluff not matching the gameplay.

I remember reading about Razordons shooting down a bunch of charging knights, and that's... just... no. That does not happen on the 8th edition tabletop. My Razordons regularly get slaughtered by mounted knights.

Disclaimer:

I regularly run a Trog & Bastiladon combo in PF-heavy lists. I like the Trog. It could use a buff or something, yeah, but it makes a lovely support monster (and it looks damn cool).

Also, I regularly field 6-8 Razordons. Their fluff is not at all similar to their playstyle, but they're still good. Maybe a bit overpriced, but not by much. 5 points overpriced in my opinion.

Their shooting attack needs to reflect the fact that they're ejecting huge spines out of their backs... 'Strength as User,' 'Strength 5,' or 'Armor Piercing,' 'Predatory Fighter rule applies to shots made while Standing and Shooting' (so that 6's in a Stand and Shoot = additional shots because, again, they're not using weapons... they're using their bodies and instincts).

They need something, man. Something.

Still, I love these models. Love the army. Love fielding them.

 

[n810]

still better than they where last edition,
(cheaper and more reliable)

 

[Scalenex]

Troglodons and Razordons are both support units. When evaluating models people tend to look at units in a vacuum.

I do not believe Razordon are overpriced. I believe Troglodons are barely overpriced. I'd be satisfied if the channeling power dice thing was free, so I guess I'd drop 15 points.

Early game a Razordon's job is to keep your Salamanders and Skink Skirmishers from being beaten up by hounds and fast cavalry. Late game their job is to flank things fighting your infantry. They have the fighting ability of a Salamander for less cost so they should enter close combat readily.

Troglodons are there as Slann support. They are a superior vassal to Skink Priests with their size. Yes you pay for this, but a Troglodon can boost nearby PF units and they can fight a little. Something Skink Priests cannot do.

Arkadons and Swarms are also support units, but they are overpriced. I would drop 20 points from Ark of Sotek Bastiladons and 5 points from Jungle Swarms to take them.

 

[Pinktaco]

150pts and that's including the upgrade. Vampires can get their mortis engine for 200pts, why are we stuck with such a shltty buff wagon for same price?

 

[Scalenex]

150pts and that's including the upgrade. Vampires can get their mortis engine for 200pts, why are we stuck with such a shltty buff wagon for same price?

Because Mortis Engines are slower, cannot march, shoot, stand and shoot, flee, or Thunderstomp. That and Mortis Engine's explode.

I still think Troglodons shoudl be a bit cheaper, but I don't see Mortis Engines as being underpriced.

 

[Screamer]

Razordons around 50 pts. Now they cost more than 10 skinks and 10 skinks is usually better since they have poison and comes from core.

Troglodon. Hard to say. It's a monster and that's a bad thing indeed. Both magic and Warmachines gives monsters a hard time, especially squishy ones without flying. If it had wings it would be very useful. Or constantly buffing PF.

 

[Ersh]

I tried Razordones few times, but they sux compared to ... anything? No poison, low Ld, and they eat skinks sometimes... In two words - they cost like a half of a cannon, have misfire like a cannon, and still worse then regular shooting archer-like units.
So imo - Razordons need not a point reduction, but some rework. Armour ignore may be for more points?

Troglodon... low WS, and he can do nothing in close combat. 200pts for a support? And it's only funny thing - PF boost work 1 time in a game, and it's not a game-breaking at all. It's just a "chance to have more dmg".
So, imo Troglodon need not only point reduction, but a permanent PF boost for units that is close to him. But, it's just a dream.

 

[Screamer]

As ondjage wrote, they wouldn't need a rework if they were cheap. at 20-30pts for razordons or 50 pts for trog "as-is" they would be spammed. But not at 65 pts and 200+.

 

[Ersh]

As ondjage wrote, they wouldn't need a rework if they were cheap. at 20-30pts for razordons or 50 pts for trog "as-is" they would be spammed. But not at 65 pts and 200+.

But we don't need Razordon with current stats and rules... It's just like skinks but worse. And make Razordons cheaper then average shooting unit is just ...wrong imo.

 

[Pinktaco]

150pts and that's including the upgrade. Vampires can get their mortis engine for 200pts, why are we stuck with such a shltty buff wagon for same price?

Because Mortis Engines are slower, cannot march, shoot, stand and shoot, flee, or Thunderstomp. That and Mortis Engine's explode.

I still think Troglodons shoudl be a bit cheaper, but I don't see Mortis Engines as being underpriced.

I never said the mortis engine is underpriced, just that for the price you pay you get something useful. The troglodon is a bag full of meh.

Having a +1 regen is ALWAYS useful, especially when a lot of your stuff have regen to begin with. Also listing things that the mortis engine cannot isn't really helpful. The troglodon have a weaker save, weaker shooting attacks and doesn't have impact hit.

Tbh I wouldn't mind to pay 200pts for the trog if only the buff aspect of the model was more usable. Say that for every trog you have, you get a +1 to your PF and it works every time. And please include the channel in the current price lol.

Either that or just cheaper. Having an extra S5 thunderstomping monster isn't exactly bad, but paying 200pts for a thunderstomp isn't exactly hot either. Might as well get a baby steg for that. Which have impact hit as well

 

[Mr Phat]

PF buff = constant effect
+1 Attack to Trog
Channeling included.

there, i'd bring it always.

 

[still-young]

I'm going to use a Trog anyway, because I paid almost 50 quid for it and it's a damn fine model. But I do wish it was a little better (never played it myself, just from the Internet consensus I've seen).

 

[SilverFaith]

+1 for making the PF boost be a permanent effect, and the channel upgrade "free". Maybe add an alternative upgrade that boosts its combat ability?

That's really all I'd ask for. I use him primarily as an additional monster (target saturation) and Vassal, because it adds targets for enemy warmachines (And they quickly become targets when I start spirit leeching their precious characters through it.)

Skinks with fly are good for this job, but are easy to shoot down. Any elf/dwarf army will remove it incredibly early, and even naked, the priest still costs 100 points for level 1 and cloak of feathers. That's expensive for a squishy character that digs into your scar vet allowance, while not actually using their wizard level for anything useful. At twice the cost, you get +3 toughness, making it a hard target for regular archers, better armour save to help it take the shots it recieves, 3 additional wounds, and the ability to help out in combat, even if it isn't much.

The priest can easily be killed by a decent unit of elven archers in one go, even if they have to reform to face it, while the trog will take some serious effort to down. A cannon shot at my troglodon is a cannon shot not on my better monsters, like my carnosaur or stegadon. Terror isn't something you should forget, either.

edit: The thing to remember about the trog and razordon is that it isn't bad by itself, it is merely overshadowed by the other choices. Salamanders and ancient stegs are really good in terms of cost and overall powerlevel.

 

[NexS1]

Anyway, Razordons: I love 'em, but they are overpriced for what they do. As far as Monstrous Beasts go, they're pretty average-ly priced.

Still, if they had Armor Piercing or 'Strength as User' for their shots, or BS4, or just... anything else... they'd be better matched with their description. Right now, it's another case of the fluff not matching the gameplay.

I'm with ixt here 100% on the razors. I'd pay 100pts for 2, max. They're too poo. 50 points a piece would make them into a 150 point volleygun that can move... That being said, 3 should be the cost of a volleygun - the movement and -1Str levels out the static, Str5, tough7.

 

[Agrem]

I think the biggest problem of razordons is their competition. They cost roughly the same as 10 skinks or one salamander (give or take 20 or so points but that doesn't really matter). Compared to these two counterparts razordons just don't seem to shine in any edge. Therefore they are usually just the odd man out and the last kid chosen for the team unfortunately.

Troglodons don't really have same kind of competition that razordons have but for me I just cannot justify to myself spending those points for this unit. Maybe if I would own the model but no...

BR
Agrem

 

[GreenMachine]

Where I can't defend the use of a Trogolodon (as I haven't used it) I'm pretty happy with my Razordons. Of course, they synchronize with my army well as I have a FoM Slann and save a die or two to throw a BS hand of glory on them, and most opponents spend their time stopping arcane unforging, walk between worlds and almost everything else. When these guys get their buff, they chew through a lot of stuff. I've been running them in a group of four.

As was said earlier in this thread, they serve a very different role from their counterparts, Salamanders. They work well at guarding flanks, and picking on low toughness/ low armor troops such as chaff or tarpit units.But, they've been able to take out knights through a few turns of shooting or their own stand-and-shoot redirection I use. You move them right in front of a unit, shoot it and then if they charge during your turn you get to shoot them again. Naturally, you need to pick what units you''re doing this too as standing in front of Demigryphs won't garner you many (if any) wounds

In the age of Elves, I find them useful. Things like Wildriders, Warlocks, Waywatchers, Sisters of the thorn just melt to these guys (again, when I get the buff off) Rememeber: Quick to fire doesn't suffer movement penatlies for shooting, so usually you're only taking the long-range penalty. Hitting a unit on a 5+ isn't too bad.

Lastly, they work well in the flanks as people severely underestimate them in combat. Fear causing two strength five attacks (sometimes stomps) can wreck a lot of things, even monsters.

 

[Ixt]

Seems like what hurts the Trog the most is being a monster, since monsters are just kinda awful.

Curious to hear from the naysayers: in which builds are you running your Razordons, and how do you utilize them?

Within our army, they're kind of expensive, yes... but at large, they're typically-priced Monstrous Beasts (and not too shabby when you look at others). I've rarely been disappointed with mine although, again, the fluff vs. gameplay is stupefying.

That sentiment, however, is true for most-things monstrous in 8th, in my opinion. Monsters are pretty weak imo.

 

[Stuntyogre]

Troglodons aren't terrible, they aren't TK heavy cav or dryads. I like mine, its a better model than its kit counterpart and he can always try to do something. I use him as a dead drop in deployment often, he can move quickly enough to re position and dropping a monster down early can throw your opponent's balance off.

 

[NexS1]

Troglodons aren't terrible, they aren't TK heavy cav or dryads. I like mine, its a better model than its kit counterpart and he can always try to do something. I use him as a dead drop in deployment often, he can move quickly enough to re position and dropping a monster down early can throw your opponent's balance off.

Good point. People see a monster and have 1 of 2 thoughts:
1: I'm going to deploy to kill that thing before it kills me
or
2: I'm going to deploy away from that thing so it doesn't kill me too quickly.