8th Ed. Underused rare options

[Sleboda]

With no rule changes, I would think 135 is right on the troglodon. I could take two then.

The channeling is no longer worth ever paying for now that you get 4d6 winds of magic.

 

[NexS1]

With no rule changes, I would think 135 is right on the troglodon. I could take two then.

The channeling is no longer worth ever paying for now that you get 4d6 winds of magic.

Is there confirmation that 4d6 magic winds is a permanent thing?

 

[SilverFaith]

With no rule changes, I would think 135 is right on the troglodon. I could take two then.

The channeling is no longer worth ever paying for now that you get 4d6 winds of magic.

Is there confirmation that 4d6 magic winds is a permanent thing?

Nop

 

[Mr Phat]

well...

absence of proof is not proof of absence.

If it stays, they better re-do what "channeling" means.

 

[Sleboda]

Is there confirmation that 4d6 magic winds is a permanent thing?

Nothing in Warhammer is permanent. We're on an 8th edition, after all. That said, you need look no further than the Kaine book itself. It says the magic rules in there _replace_ the ones in the main rule book.

When the company that makes the rules tells me they've made new rules that replace the old ones, that's really all I need. New editions, New army books, or something else like End Times...net effect is the same - a new standard for what the "current" rules are.

 

[SilverFaith]

Nothing in Warhammer is permanent. We're on an 8th edition, after all. That said, you need look no further than the Kaine book itself. It says the magic rules in there _replace_ the ones in the main rule book.

When the company that makes the rules tells me they've made new rules that replace the old ones, that's really all I need. New editions, New army books, or something else like End Times...net effect is the same - a new standard for what the "current" rules are.

Everyone in my local area uses the place that says when to use the rules, aside from the goof-up that says "if 1 of the players want to use them, use them regardless of what the other person wants!" because that's a sure-fire way to get yourself an unfriendly, or even outright hostile, game.

Until they do the same they did with the 50% allowances, we will only use it if people want to, not baseline... especially because the new magic system is a bit wonky, especially when it comes to the balance of it.

With that said, while channeling seems weaker because of the abundance of dice, you also have more to cast now, and the greater difference between power and dispel dice means that every additional dice you get is still worth it.

Whether or not it is 15 points worth, I can't tell. You are technically paying for a 1/6 chance of getting a single dice more each magic phase, so... that's an average of maybe 2 dice during the entire game, if we assume it lasts 6 turns, and your trog is somehow still alive by then. Same cost as the channeling staff, so i guess that's the reason for the cost, but... Meh, I wouldn't even take it on a wizard if the slann didn't get 3 dice to channel on. For now, I generally skip it entirely on the Troglodon.

 

[hdctambien]

I'm expecting some big changes in 9th edition. I think GW is trying to slowly introduce them a bit at a time right now. Might as well get some practice playing with the new rules as they release them!

It sucks that they are doing such a poor job at writing/releasing these rules. The new magic rules in particular are missing a few important details which makes it difficult to get everyone on the same page with them. (Why is dispelling only mentioned in the "overview" section? How does recasting RIP and Vortex spells work, etc)

I've enjoyed the few games I played with End Times magic. If you don't like the "6 dice Dwellers/Purple Sun FTW" tactics then End Times magic is a pretty good solution. If you're afraid of people casting Wyssan's 4 times or casting Savage Beasts twice, you probably haven't played with the rules yet. While spamming spells is possible, it's not guaranteed and it's exactly easy to pull off unless your opponent lets you.

 

[SilverFaith]

I'm expecting some big changes in 9th edition. I think GW is trying to slowly introduce them a bit at a time right now. Might as well get some practice playing with the new rules as they release them!

It sucks that they are doing such a poor job at writing/releasing these rules. The new magic rules in particular are missing a few important details which makes it difficult to get everyone on the same page with them. (Why is dispelling only mentioned in the "overview" section? How does recasting RIP and Vortex spells work, etc)

I've enjoyed the few games I played with End Times magic. If you don't like the "6 dice Dwellers/Purple Sun FTW" tactics then End Times magic is a pretty good solution. If you're afraid of people casting Wyssan's 4 times or casting Savage Beasts twice, you probably haven't played with the rules yet. While spamming spells is possible, it's not guaranteed and it's exactly easy to pull off unless your opponent lets you.

I had some fun with an Oldblood Wizard, and you're only half-right.

If I get 4 dice, and uses them all, and the enemy only gets 2, he wont be stopping anything, no matter how hard he wants to. you are throwing a whole lot of spells under these rules, but a lot of it wont go through. you are still likely to get more spells off - hell, my Oldblood got off more (undispelled) spells using the end times rules, than my FoM Slann usually gets in the 3 turns we played.

But you're right about the #6 spells. They are extremely hard to get off now, unless you IF on any doubles. You can't rely on getting more than 4 dice to cast it with, and that's just not enough to reliably get it off.

All in all, everything just got more unpredictable, but not in the "Everything miscasts or you have too few dice"-way like it is under the 8th edition rules. Low-value spells are far better now, and every bonus to cast is incredibly valueable, because spells you can reliably 2-dice, or even 1-die, are far more worth it, because you can always get them through. Anything 20+ is just stupid, because you will more often than not waste a single die, because using your 3 or 4 dice will just be a waste - you are too unlikely to actually succeed at casting it anyway, but you have to waste at least 1 die...

It makes the difference between a level 2 and 4 far smaller though, which is good. End times spells aside, your level 2 can easily go toe-to-toe with a level 4. It means we don't HAVE to bring a slann, which is nice.

 

[NexS1]

Is there confirmation that 4d6 magic winds is a permanent thing?

Nothing in Warhammer is permanent. We're on an 8th edition, after all. That said, you need look no further than the Kaine book itself. It says the magic rules in there _replace_ the ones in the main rule book.

When the company that makes the rules tells me they've made new rules that replace the old ones, that's really all I need. New editions, New army books, or something else like End Times...net effect is the same - a new standard for what the "current" rules are.

I won't play 4d6 until 8th gets errata'd to force it. And even then, I may not play fantasy at all. At least not for a while until I'm less pissed off.

We'll see.

 

[Ixt]

Why so upset, NexS1?

I have yet to try it, but it seems pretty cool.

 

[NexS1]

It's becoming less and less about tactics and decision making. Merging army lists (i collect high elves.. if I wanted to collect dark/wood elves then I would have), combined monster/rider profiles, stupidly random magic(taking tactics and choice out of the phase).. What's next, random movement for all models? Stupidity test for everything.

I'm just going to sit and wait to see what they do, and make my decision after that.

I'll still convert and paint models regardless of what happens though

 

[SilverFaith]

It's becoming less and less about tactics and decision making.

How so? In fact, considering the new 50% allowances, you now have even more options when construction your army, and by extent, how you play your army. You can now go dual slann at 2k points, and spend the last 1k on units solely to defend those wizards, playing a defensive "sit back and blast everything" game - or you can go the complete opposite direction, going full MSUs, to force the enemy to waste his super expensive lords and heroes fighting small fry.

I actually feel we have more options and a wider spectrum of tactical decisions now. Going full hero-hammer is a surefire way to see your next game be against someone that WILL tarpit your precious characters with 5x4 units that tarpits you forever, while only costing like 200 points, maximum.

Merging army lists (i collect high elves.. if I wanted to collect dark/wood elves then I would have)

This, we agree on. Fluffy armies are cool, and an Undead-united or Elf-united is a cool idea, but not something that should be implemented as an army choice. That's a super stupid idea, and clearly just an attempt at money-grabbing.

combined monster/rider profiles

I have been hoping for this for so long, it's not even funny. It's the perfect way to stop the cannon-superiority we have in 8th edition, because cuurrently, monsters are as squishy as wet paper.

stupidly random magic(taking tactics and choice out of the phase)..

Magic has always been random. Difference is, you now actually have a fair chance of getting at least a few spells off, where the 8th edition rules could very likely result in no successful casts at all because of a bad winds of magic roll. It made casting the #6 spells harder, but that's a good thing in my opinion. It was boring having a "I'll just throw 6 dice at this spell and kill everything" option. THAT kills decision making. My go-to strategy against anyone fielding witch-elf hordes? detach my slann from his unit, 6-dice Fiery Convocation, and then just avoid it until it is gone, or so small it can't achieve anything anymore. That's boring as all hell. I'd rather have to think up a way to beat it, or avoid it altogether, rather than just have an "I-WIN"-button.


At least, that's my opinion on the things I've seen so far. Being a 40k player as well, I feel far better about the current way they are making new rules, than I did with the 40k 7th edition rules. They just generally seem well thought out, unlike both the 40k psychic phase and the unbound rules. Really, it'd be the equivalent of saying "You have xd6 power dice, where x is your total wizard levels on the board" and "Forget allowance, just pick whatever you want, lords, heroes, core... doesn't matter, just pick anything. From any army. We don't care." in warhammer fantasy.

I'm still optimistic, at least. Though honestly, I do hope that, if the new magic rules become core, that they'll at least tidy them up a bit. They seem somewhat... unpolished right now.

 

[NexS1]

How so? In fact, considering the new 50% allowances, you now have even more options when construction your army, and by extent, how you play your army. You can now go dual slann at 2k points, and spend the last 1k on units solely to defend those wizards, playing a defensive "sit back and blast everything" game - or you can go the complete opposite direction, going full MSUs, to force the enemy to waste his super expensive lords and heroes fighting small fry.

I actually feel we have more options and a wider spectrum of tactical decisions now. Going full hero-hammer is a surefire way to see your next game be against someone that WILL tarpit your precious characters with 5x4 units that tarpits you forever, while only costing like 200 points, maximum.

This is true, the choice we all have for out lists has been far less limited. But List-writing and tactics are very different things.
I am referring to in-game actions and choices. IE: only having D6 dice from power pool for any given attempt. Broken concentration is moot. Big whoop.
You can't plan you magic phase - you get what the dice gods give you, and that is all.

This, we agree on. Fluffy armies are cool, and an Undead-united or Elf-united is a cool idea, but not something that should be implemented as an army choice. That's a super stupid idea, and clearly just an attempt at money-grabbing.

...

I have been hoping for this for so long, it's not even funny. It's the perfect way to stop the cannon-superiority we have in 8th edition, because cuurrently, monsters are as squishy as wet paper.

I believe the combined profiles is another stupid grab for money too.
"Here, come and buy our expensive models because you can put them on the table without any fear of them ever dying."
It's stupid, it's cheap, and it's lazy. Monsters aren't the problem, it's the power of cannons. Cannons should be Str10, D6 wounds before the bounce, once it hits the ground it should be Str5 D3 wounds.

Magic has always been random. Difference is, you now actually have a fair chance of getting at least a few spells off, where the 8th edition rules could very likely result in no successful casts at all because of a bad winds of magic roll. It made casting the #6 spells harder, but that's a good thing in my opinion. It was boring having a "I'll just throw 6 dice at this spell and kill everything" option. THAT kills decision making. My go-to strategy against anyone fielding witch-elf hordes? detach my slann from his unit, 6-dice Fiery Convocation, and then just avoid it until it is gone, or so small it can't achieve anything anymore. That's boring as all hell. I'd rather have to think up a way to beat it, or avoid it altogether, rather than just have an "I-WIN"-button.

Why bother having great spells then? Why not re-write all the lores to have small value, easy to cast, less useful spells?
For LM, our core sucks (saurus warriors), our elites are subpar to other army elites (TG and CoR). What do we have? Good magic, saurus characters and monsters. If you can't capitalise on what we've got, then all we have is a table full of average things.