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[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Just 1 wounds… yeah a good one but it costs 55 points and maybe you use just once. With miscast with still have a good chance to launch a spell anyway … arcane familiar sounds as a better option to me imho. And it costs only 30. Alternatively cube of darkness.

Arcane familiar let's you pick from 2 lores. Not really a fan of that, as it throws away a big advantage of a level 4 wizard- 4 rolls in 1 lore. You only get to exchange 1 spell for a lustria OR signature, not both, so really taking a chance you end up with spells you didn't really need. Sure you may roll hot and get the best of 2 lores. But more likely to end up with 2-3 spell you didnt want and being forced into 1 signature/Lustrian spell.

Cube of darkness is a trap IMO. 50 points means on a skink its eating up all their points to stop 1 spell. Powerful, but absolutely must be used at the absolute right time in the game.

But on a slann, it's not as needed. Level 4 and the option to becalm instead, which is far more useful over the course of the game. Not a guarantee against 1 spell, but more likely to stop multiple spells.

IMO the lore familiar is the arcane item most worth it other than cupped hands. Arcane leaves way too much to chance. Fun on a level 2 wizard where you had smaller chance of getting the spell you wanted anyways, so it gives them access to choose between 2 signature spells instead of 1 if you roll crap spells you didn't want/need.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

That's true, but he is an easy target for units like scorpions that are hitting from behind. He is not bad at all, but... I miss the opportunity to be a part of a TG unit. Also, Cupped Hands are mentioned by discomute would be much better in that case.

We all miss that. But it does mean you'll never have a miscast drop a template on the middle of your bunker anymore. Silver linings there

 

[discomute]

High Elf casters get a free cast reroll every turn (

It really annoys me from a lore perspective that the high elves are better casters than we are

 

[airjamy]

Arcane familiar let's you pick from 2 lores. Not really a fan of that, as it throws away a big advantage of a level 4 wizard- 4 rolls in 1 lore. You only get to exchange 1 spell for a lustria OR signature, not both, so really taking a chance you end up with spells you didn't really need. Sure you may roll hot and get the best of 2 lores. But more likely to end up with 2-3 spell you didnt want and being forced into 1 signature/Lustrian spell.

Cube of darkness is a trap IMO. 50 points means on a skink its eating up all their points to stop 1 spell. Powerful, but absolutely must be used at the absolute right time in the game.

But on a slann, it's not as needed. Level 4 and the option to becalm instead, which is far more useful over the course of the game. Not a guarantee against 1 spell, but more likely to stop multiple spells.

IMO the lore familiar is the arcane item most worth it other than cupped hands. Arcane leaves way too much to chance. Fun on a level 2 wizard where you had smaller chance of getting the spell you wanted anyways, so it gives them access to choose between 2 signature spells instead of 1 if you roll crap spells you didn't want/need.

I think he means Lore Familiar and not Arcane Familiar, also as Lore Familiar is 30 points, Arcane is 15.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I know he is almost impossible to catch. The point is that a normal lvl 4 is 180 points, he starts at 285. You would never buy a 100 point upgrade on a normal wizard for 2 extra wounds and 5+ ward along with a fly move. He also simply isn't the best caster in the game, High Elf casters get a free cast reroll every turn (better than any of our Disciplines, and free), and having access to multiple lores simply aint that relevant as long as you have access to the good ones (Illusion, Elementalism and High Magic). Cupped hands isn't that good, it is like ok. Miscasts are pretty inconsequantial right now, especially if you are outside of a unit (which wizards should be anyway for the 360 degrees vision). If your wizard is caught, he probably catches a ton of wounds, so the 1-2 wounds he took from miscasts does not matter anyway. You are very unlikely to die from just miscasts, and chipping a single wound of an enemy wizard also doesn't matter. That is also why Soul of Stone isn't that interesting either, it just does not do enough. Becalming cogitation is like the only thing that is kinda interesting about a Slann, but there are also matchups where it does absolutely nothing (dwarfs), and it makes your Slann even more expensive and even less likely to get his points back. The real reason you take a Slann is for ld9 and BSB on a Large Target, but i think you can make do with a Scarvet on Carno as general and a Skink Chief BSB.

Gone are the days when miscasts could instagib your wizards, gotta start playing like it. Cupped Hands also just does not snipe enemy chars, they have 2 wounds, you only do 1!

The point about being impossible to carch was because the person I replied to said he was easy to catch.

But to you points- it's 100-ish points more for 2 wounds, fly(8), a 5+ ward AND T4, AND an 18" command range as well. Most generals will have to pay significant amounts for their mounts as well to get an 18" command range. We are just in a weird spot that we like to buy ALOT of large monsters and will do so all the time.

LD 9 with cold blooded is significant IMO. Ld 8 isn't bad for sure, but 9 is just way more solid.

Sure miscasts don't just kill your wizard anymore, but there is a 42% chance that your magic is done for the turn when you miscast now. Big deal on a level 4 wizard. Dodging that chance entirely with cupped hands is nice.

But even soul of stone shifts that down to 28%. And then it also means of that 28% of miscasts, you can always shift up to a 10 instead of a 9, and it becomes an irrestible force spell.

On the low end not as useful, but still reduces you to half as likely to take an S10 hit, which is also the only result where the blast is significantly larger than the slann and likely to catch other units.

Yes becalming is way better as a discipline, but 10 points for soul of stone is better than I think people give it credit for. Fixed movements on a distributed curve can be significant.

 

[airjamy]

The point about being impossible to carch was because the person I replied to said he was easy to catch.

But to you points- it's 100-ish points more for 2 wounds, fly(8), a 5+ ward AND T4, AND an 18" command range as well. Most generals will have to pay significant amounts for their mounts as well to get an 18" command range. We are just in a weird spot that we like to buy ALOT of large monsters and will do so all the time.

LD 9 with cold blooded is significant IMO. Ld 8 isn't bad for sure, but 9 is just way more solid.

Sure miscasts don't just kill your wizard anymore, but there is a 42% chance that your magic is done for the turn when you miscast now. Big deal on a level 4 wizard. Dodging that chance entirely with cupped hands is nice.

But even soul of stone shifts that down to 28%. And then it also means of that 28% of miscasts, you can always shift up to a 10 instead of a 9, and it becomes an irrestible force spell.

On the low end not as useful, but still reduces you to half as likely to take an S10 hit, which is also the only result where the blast is significantly larger than the slann and likely to catch other units.

Yes becalming is way better as a discipline, but 10 points for soul of stone is better than I think people give it credit for. Fixed movements on a distributed curve can be significant.

The 18 inches is not a real benefit though, as else you will have other large targets being BSB's and Generals, so it should be left out of the equation IMHO. Effectively, you get only the T4, 5 wounds, 5++ and the fly, which are simply not worth 100 points on a wizard. I would advice you to try a few games without the Slann. We really have played long with the Slann being our main point of power, that simply is not the case anymore. I dropped him and i do not miss him.

 

[RipperDerek]

If you like the Slann, I say continue running it, and I honestly wish for maximal success for all of my cold-blooded relatives.

With that said, no need to dunk on the Slann-less, either. We are lizards, just like you!

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I'm not saying Slannless isn't viable. I too find the multi carno approach appealing.


What I am trying to explain is if you take a slann, what you are getting for his points and why I think certain items, like cupped hands and soul stone discipline, have their value. If investing in the slann, I think it wise to invest the additional points to best enable his success, and as I see it cupped really plays to that by mitigating the miscast results of 8+

 

[discomute]

You can get a reroll on the miscast table for 5 points. If you liked cupped, okay, but I hardly think it's something to list as a reason why we have the best caster in the game

 

[Kalisto]

We need two ancient stegadons to get +1 to cast. Tzeentch get the same within a unit of 10 models… so slanns are no longer the best

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I was getting confused why you guys kept saying I said they were the best.

Went back and read my post and It's because I stupidily left out the words "one of". My bad

I still think they are among the best. IMO fly, becalming, the ability to use vassals and unparalleled lore access is all pretty great.

 

[airjamy]

I'm not saying Slannless isn't viable. I too find the multi carno approach appealing.


What I am trying to explain is if you take a slann, what you are getting for his points and why I think certain items, like cupped hands and soul stone discipline, have their value. If investing in the slann, I think it wise to invest the additional points to best enable his success, and as I see it cupped really plays to that by mitigating the miscast results of 8+

Id rather say multi steg is the way to go, but multi carno is also interesting. I guess i kinda dislike a carno without Dragon Slayer Sword, the synnergy of that with a Carno is very nice.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Id rather say multi steg is the way to go, but multi carno is also interesting. I guess i kinda dislike a carno without Dragon Slayer Sword, the synnergy of that with a Carno is very nice.

The only thing I worry about multi steggo is how well they handle other monsters. Dragons and the like. Yes the stegs have poison so that's really nice, but at a glance the carno really just seems to do it better.

 

[RipperDerek]

The only thing I worry about multi steggo is how well they handle other monsters. Dragons and the like. Yes the stegs have poison so that's really nice, but at a glance the carno really just seems to do it better.

I wouldn't count on the poison long-term, that is probably going to get errata'd / FAQ'd. But for sure, enjoy it while it lasts!

 

[RipperDerek]

Rules question, please halp:

If I make a character with both the Berserk Blade (Special Rules: Frenzy) and the Burning Blade (Special Rules: Flaming Attacks, extremely common magical item), which of the following are true?

1. Option A: Even though the character can only use one weapon at a time in combat, they ALWAYS have both Frenzy and Flaming attacks.
2. Option B: The character has NEITHER Frenzy nor Flaming attacks until they choose a weapon in combat (removing almost all the downside from the Berserk blade)

If Option A is true, you can always buy the burning blade to add flaming attacks to any weapon for 5 points, even if you never actually use the Burning Blade itself.
If Option B is true, you can take the berserk blade but never have to worry about Frenzy, as long as you also pay 5 points for the Burning Blade.

I am tempted to say that option B is true. It makes sense that weapon special rules only affect you while you're using that weapon, even if it feels like an exploit in the case of this one.

 

[airjamy]

The only thing I worry about multi steggo is how well they handle other monsters. Dragons and the like. Yes the stegs have poison so that's really nice, but at a glance the carno really just seems to do it better.

I personally really like the 2+d3 stomps the Steg has, it really outshines the carno there.

 

[airjamy]

I wouldn't count on the poison long-term, that is probably going to get errata'd / FAQ'd. But for sure, enjoy it while it lasts!

I agree, but raw you def have it, and rai you can also imagine the chief handing out poison to the boys. It ain't that much of a stretch, but we could def lose it.

 

[RipperDerek]

In exploring my rules question above, I found another Oldblood build that competes with the 2 big ones. And actually, I think it's probably better.

• 27.366 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Dragon Slaying Sword, Sword of Might, Shield, Talisman of Protection

Because the Sword of Might is an extremely common magic item, you can take it along with the Dragon Slaying Sword. Then you can use the sword of might against non-monsters. This is relevant because most of the non-monsters are T4 with some amount of armor. The result is the first unit in my spreadsheet that wins every battle I simulated, although not always by large margins...

Even though the efficiency score is slightly less than the ogre blade, that is mostly because the ogre blade adds a lot of extra wounds against monstrous infantry and cavalry. This build is still fine against those, it just doesn't win by as large a margin. But it is WAY better against dragons and monsters, which are much bigger threats. So, my opinion is that this build is better.

Also yes, this build does score significantly better than either the DSS or the Sword of Might by themselves...at least according to my spreadsheet.

 

[airjamy]

In exploring my rules question above, I found another Oldblood build that competes with the 2 big ones. And actually, I think it's probably better.

• 27.366 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Dragon Slaying Sword, Sword of Might, Shield, Talisman of Protection

Because the Sword of Might is an extremely common magic item, you can take it along with the Dragon Slaying Sword. Then you can use the sword of might against non-monsters. This is relevant because most of the non-monsters are T4 with some amount of armor. The result is the first unit in my spreadsheet that wins every battle I simulated, although not always by large margins...

Even though the efficiency score is slightly less than the ogre blade, that is mostly because the ogre blade adds a lot of extra wounds against monstrous infantry and cavalry. This build is still fine against those, it just doesn't win by as large a margin. But it is WAY better against dragons and monsters, which are much bigger threats. So, my opinion is that this build is better.

Also yes, this build does score significantly better than either the DSS or the Sword of Might by themselves...at least according to my spreadsheet.

I do like the idea of taking the second magic weapon. An oldblood is a lot more expensive than a scarvet though, and effectively you lose a point of ws, w and a. The upgrade might be worth it, it is kinda interesting and also dependent on the rest of your character allotment. Every list I write maxes on 1k characters, it seems the best slot in our army, which makes me very critical of what I spend there. My current setup of scarvet on carno with dragonslayer, ancient with a lvl 2 and 5++ and chief in steg with a 5++ comes down to 995 points and feels quite optimal, do not think you want to drop the lvl 2 that can dispell Vortexes for an Oldblood.

 

[discomute]

I do like the idea of taking the second magic weapon. An oldblood is a lot more expensive than a scarvet though, and effectively you lose a point of ws, w and a. The upgrade might be worth it, it is kinda interesting and also dependent on the rest of your character allotment. Every list I write maxes on 1k characters, it seems the best slot in our army, which makes me very critical of what I spend there. My current setup of scarvet on carno with dragonslayer, ancient with a lvl 2 and 5++ and chief in steg with a 5++ comes down to 995 points and feels quite optimal, do not think you want to drop the lvl 2 that can dispell Vortexes for an Oldblood.

Absolutely characters need to be maxed, it's a shame the slann is 50 points overpriced, it's very hard to fit it in. Although I am trying because I like them, once I've got a Slann, old blood on carno and chief on stegadon there is only about 110 left over for items...

I think if I try for a slann-less list (I don't have the models) I would probably ignore the skink priest and take a troglodon for the dispels and just focus on 3 of the COB and SCS and really get whatever magic items you want.