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Tutorial The Old World Lizardmen Army PDF is out and free

airjamy said:
I also hate to say it but Slann look maybe kinda.. bad? They are expensive, have to run solo so they are way more easily caught than before, they are just a normal lvl 4 caster, disciplines look very meh, I don't know why you would take them really. Carnosaurs look like our only half way viable way to get rid of a Dragon and a lot more points effective.
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I dunno, it depends if cupped hands and soul of stone stack. Miscasting on purpose to kill enemy casters could be viable.
 
hardyworld said:
Maybe I'm in the minority....but I kinda like that a unit of Saurus Warriors are compulsory.
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I agree, it limits the number of Skink Clouds that people will inevitably try to shove in their tournament lists.

hardyworld said:
Lore of Lustria looks underwhelming. Pretty disappointed in spells appearing weak.
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I honestly think those spells look fine, Apotheosis is good for healing our foot and cowboy characters to keep them fighting in challenges and Monsoon is a good one for blunting enemy shooting, which of course is one thing that really annoys us.
 
Slann being underwhelming is a common first take, but a lot of YouTubers who have played say that they are actually quite good. Yes monsoon and apotheosis are the top spells but also there was a big undersold advantage of apotheosis, can't remember does it give the model fear?
 
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So I've bee a reader of Lustria Online since a little bit after WH The End Times, but never a poster. Long term aspirations to do a lizardman project for 8th/9th age/WAP. They were what introduced me first to WHFB in my friends basement in 1998. I, foolishly though, got brettonians as my models when it came time to get an army. And while I still play for the lady, I secretly wish to enact the great plan. Have a bunch of models. Built a bunch. Would read lore and occasionally build lists... but never had time to paint due to other projects and a general lack of opponents put the scaly bois low on my priorities.

This brings me to The Old World. While I am saddened that lizards aren't core, I get why. But with today I am really excited to finally start down the path of the Old Ones.

As I read through the Army List, I am coming to it with little 8th playtime and biases, as the last I really played a bunch of Fantasy was 7th and that was YEARS ago now.

A major thing to think on
-Spears vs Hand Weapons on Saurus

So spears have fight in extra rank, but our hand weapons are obsidian blades, so give us a natural -1 AP. This seems really powerful in this edition, but without "step-up" and our natural low initiative, the spears may be preferable to pump up attacks.

However charging and flank charges can give a significant increase to that, and a well placed bastillidon can push you over that edge.

So IMO it comes down to intent. If you are going to be using a saurus block as an anchor for your line, something to take charges and defend the flanks of other units- Spears, all day every day.

BUT if you are hunting with them, going out and charging, back them up with a solar engine... and all the sudden hand weapons look like the choice to make. As long as you are at least simultaneous, the seems to be right killy for lizards.

Further more, while on the subject of Initiative- Wandering Deliberations Slann are where its at IMO.
You get access to signature spells, so can reliably plan for magic. And in this case the, Im looking at Elementalism's signature spell- Storm Call. Target unit is -1 initiative. With a Bastillidon backing up charging units, that a 2I swing, and as long as you charged 3 inches, chances are your saurus are now faster than their target.

Now yes you could just take an Elementalist Slann, but I don't think the rest of the spells enhance lizards as much. With wandering deliberations Id take
-Storm Call (elemental)
-Drain magic (high)
-The Summoning (daemonology)... and maybe doombolt (dark) instead if circumstances warrant it. its 1 less S and uses a template, where summoning is S4 2d6. But Doom is longer ranged and -2 AP. So highly armoured elite armies, like a bretonnian crusade army or empire with alot of knights, may warrant the bolt.
- Apotheosis (lizard)- healing cowboys all day every day.

Glittering Robe (illusion) is a strong contender... but the fact Slann don't join a unit really limits its usefulness. If it could apply to the TG, sure, but it doesn't so alas. BUT if you find youself facing a whole heap of shooting or that zany "oops all gyro-copters" list, then yeah, probably worth it just to make them expend more shooting on your slann.

Sorry for my own wandering deliberations. Just excited to get into The Old World and trying to get into this mindset.
 
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Gothmog Lord of Balrogs said:
So I've bee a reader of Lustria Online since a little bit after WH The End Times, but never a poster. Long term aspirations to do a lizardman project for 8th/9th age/WAP. They were what introduced me first to WHFB in my friends basement in 1998. I, foolishly though, got brettonians as my models when it came time to get an army. And while I still play for the lady, I secretly wish to enact the great plan. Have a bunch of models. Built a bunch. Would read lore and occasionally build lists... but never had time to paint due to other projects and a general lack of opponents put the scaly bois low on my priorities.

This brings me to The Old World. While I am saddened that lizards aren't core, I get why. But with today I am really excited to finally start down the path of the Old Ones.

As I read through the Army List, I am coming to it with little 8th playtime and biases, as the last I really played a bunch of Fantasy was 7th and that was YEARS ago now.

A major thing to think on
-Spears vs Hand Weapons on Saurus

So spears have fight in extra rank, but our hand weapons are obsidian blades, so give us a natural -1 AP. This seems really powerful in this edition, but without "step-up" and our natural low initiative, the spears may be preferable to pump up attacks.

However charging and flank charges can give a significant increase to that, and a well placed bastillidon can push you over that edge.

So IMO it comes down to intent. If you are going to be using a saurus block as an anchor for your line, something to take charges and defend the flanks of other units- Spears, all day every day.

BUT if you are hunting with them, going out and charging, back them up with a solar engine... and all the sudden hand weapons look like the choice to make. As long as you are at least simultaneous, the seems to be right killy for lizards.

Further more, while on the subject of Initiative- Wandering Deliberations Slann are where its at IMO.
You get access to signature spells, so can reliably plan for magic. And in this case the, Im looking at Elementalism's signature spell- Storm Call. Target unit is -1 initiative. With a Bastillidon backing up charging units, that a 2I swing, and as long as you charged 3 inches, chances are your saurus are now fast than their target.

Now yes you could just take an Elementalist Slann, but I don't think the rest of the spells enhance lizards as much. With wandering deliberations Id take
-Storm Call (elemental)
-Drain magic (high)
-The Summoning (daemonology)... and maybe doombolt (dark) instead if circumstances warrant it. its 1 less S and uses a template, where summoning is S4 2d6. But Doom is longer ranged and -2 AP. So highly armoured elite armies, like a bretonnian crusade army or empire with along of knights, may warrant the bolt.
- Apotheosis (lizard)- healing cowboys all day every day.

Glittering Robe (illusion) is a strong contender... but the fact Slann don't join a unit really limits its usefulness. If it could apply to the TG, sure, but it doesn't so alas. BUT if you find youself facing a whole heap of shooting or that zany "oops all gyro-copters" list, then yeah, probably worth it just to make them expend more shooting on your slann.

Sorry for my own wandering deliberations. Just excited to get into The Old World and trying to get into this mindset.
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Welcome, welcome and once more welcome @Gothmog Lord of Balrogs!

Great to see someone else excited about TOW, and a good analysis of our new Spears vs Hand Weapons conundrum for Saurus. I'm definitely going to take all of this into account in my tactica thread...
 
Gothmog Lord of Balrogs said:
So IMO it comes down to intent. If you are going to be using a saurus block as an anchor for your line, something to take charges and defend the flanks of other units- Spears, all day every day.
Click to expand...
Do you get +1 AC for shields with spears? A basic question just ensuring I understand this edition correctly as it seems to me hand weapons might just be better all around...?
 
Gothmog Lord of Balrogs said:
So I've bee a reader of Lustria Online since a little bit after WH The End Times, but never a poster. Long term aspirations to do a lizardman project for 8th/9th age/WAP. They were what introduced me first to WHFB in my friends basement in 1998. I, foolishly though, got brettonians as my models when it came time to get an army. And while I still play for the lady, I secretly wish to enact the great plan. Have a bunch of models. Built a bunch. Would read lore and occasionally build lists... but never had time to paint due to other projects and a general lack of opponents put the scaly bois low on my priorities.

This brings me to The Old World. While I am saddened that lizards aren't core, I get why. But with today I am really excited to finally start down the path of the Old Ones.

As I read through the Army List, I am coming to it with little 8th playtime and biases, as the last I really played a bunch of Fantasy was 7th and that was YEARS ago now.

A major thing to think on
-Spears vs Hand Weapons on Saurus

So spears have fight in extra rank, but our hand weapons are obsidian blades, so give us a natural -1 AP. This seems really powerful in this edition, but without "step-up" and our natural low initiative, the spears may be preferable to pump up attacks.

However charging and flank charges can give a significant increase to that, and a well placed bastillidon can push you over that edge.

So IMO it comes down to intent. If you are going to be using a saurus block as an anchor for your line, something to take charges and defend the flanks of other units- Spears, all day every day.

BUT if you are hunting with them, going out and charging, back them up with a solar engine... and all the sudden hand weapons look like the choice to make. As long as you are at least simultaneous, the seems to be right killy for lizards.

Further more, while on the subject of Initiative- Wandering Deliberations Slann are where its at IMO.
You get access to signature spells, so can reliably plan for magic. And in this case the, Im looking at Elementalism's signature spell- Storm Call. Target unit is -1 initiative. With a Bastillidon backing up charging units, that a 2I swing, and as long as you charged 3 inches, chances are your saurus are now faster than their target.

Now yes you could just take an Elementalist Slann, but I don't think the rest of the spells enhance lizards as much. With wandering deliberations Id take
-Storm Call (elemental)
-Drain magic (high)
-The Summoning (daemonology)... and maybe doombolt (dark) instead if circumstances warrant it. its 1 less S and uses a template, where summoning is S4 2d6. But Doom is longer ranged and -2 AP. So highly armoured elite armies, like a bretonnian crusade army or empire with alot of knights, may warrant the bolt.
- Apotheosis (lizard)- healing cowboys all day every day.

Glittering Robe (illusion) is a strong contender... but the fact Slann don't join a unit really limits its usefulness. If it could apply to the TG, sure, but it doesn't so alas. BUT if you find youself facing a whole heap of shooting or that zany "oops all gyro-copters" list, then yeah, probably worth it just to make them expend more shooting on your slann.

Sorry for my own wandering deliberations. Just excited to get into The Old World and trying to get into this mindset.
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Cool! I'd say you are missing the lore familiar though. For 30 points, you get to pick your spells, so I'd say that is better than wandering deliberations. The Cube is common, so you can go Cube plus Familiar on your Slann to be able to pick your lore and your spells if you want consistency. That is also 10 points cheaper than the 40 points you pay for Wandering deliberations.
 
discomute said:
Do you get +1 AC for shields with spears? A basic question just ensuring I understand this edition correctly as it seems to me hand weapons might just be better all around...?
Click to expand...
Thrusting spears do not get ap 1. @Gothmog Lord of Balrogs , paying a point to lose 1 ap seems sus to me, I think you just always go for hws now.
 
airjamy said:
Cool! I'd say you are missing the lore familiar though. For 30 points, you get to pick your spells, so I'd say that is better than wandering deliberations
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The issue with the lore familiar is its one discipline IMO. So lets say you stick with elemental for the Signature, which you could take already without the familiar as it is the siganture. Now thats 30 points for 3 spells. And which 3.

1- Flaming Sword- no. I want to keep the slann out of combat thank you
2- Plague of Rust... okay, but I was already -1 AP with obsidian blades. So the spell isn't doing a ton more work for lizards
3- Summon Elemental Spirit. Why- I already have Monsoon in the Lizard lore, which is a larger LOS blocking template. And a Slann always has access to Monsoon. Sure Elemental Spirit can do some damage as well. But the -1 to hit from monsoon is a nice defensive buff for us now that scaly skin is just armour. And the elemental spirit moves randomly. So if I want to rely on the damage, I should go with something else.
4- Earthen Ramparts- This one. I take this one. Use if on my spear saurus block.
5- Wind Blast- I guess this one. But its just another variant magic missile compared to doombolt and the summoning. Not sure we need an S5 magic missile when we have a Carno or Krox running arround.
6- Travel Mystical Pathway- Age of Sigmarfy your saurus! Not sure this is really needed for us. If the game was more objective focused maybe, but then again we have flying units. Problem is I don't see many situation where I will need to pick up and put a lizard unit someplace else.

This is part of why I favor a wandering slann. IMO the lore familiar is more worth it on a skink priest, where you only get 2 rolls. If you really want to control him, take it there.
 
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airjamy said:
Thrusting spears do not get ap 1. @Gothmog Lord of Balrogs , paying a point to lose 1 ap seems sus to me, I think you just always go for hws now.
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Yes, but you get to make supporting attacks with spears.

With us being Initiative 1, its possible that when you take a charge, you will loose your front rank and not get to fight back.
But spears reduces this possibility of not getting to fight back by allowing the entire second rank to make supporting attacks.

I think it also becomes slightly meta dependent. If you are always taking charges from large infantry blocks, 5 or 6 second rank attacks back may seem trivial. But if you are always facing lance formations of 6 knights, well, now we may be talking about reducing combat efficiency of a unit if one of these gets through.
 
discomute said:
Do you get +1 AC for shields with spears? A basic question just ensuring I understand this edition correctly as it seems to me hand weapons might just be better all around...?
Click to expand...
As far as I can tell, the shield has the same effect with a HW or Spear. So same AV for us. What spears do is allow the second rank to make supporting attacks.
 
discomute said:
Can't wait!

I have to say my all time favourite units are rippers and I think they are completely unplayable in TOW. Impetuous just kills them.
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I wouldn't say it kills them, because the one aspect that isn't so bad about Impetuous or Frenzy in TOW is that you get to choose your charge target if multiple units are within charge range - you don't have to charge the nearest enemy unit as you had to for Frenzy in 8th Edition. So long as you make use of your turns when your unit is out of charge range of anybody, so that it ends up in charge range of the unit you want it to take out, then very little can stop you just charging that unit Impetuous or not. Positioning is key.

Also note that Skirmishers generally block charging, so an easy way to control Impetuous and Frenzied units is to keep a screen of friendly Skirmishers in front of them until your Impetuous/Frenzied unit is within charging distance of the unit you want it to kill, then move the Skirmishers out of the way and let your Impetuous/Frenzied unit do its thing. In the case of Ripperdactyls you can use Terradon Riders, for example. Additionally friendly Skirmishers can also play Skirmisher Wars with enemy Skirmishers that are trying to block your designated target enemy from being charged by your Impetuous unit.
 
Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
Welcome, welcome and once more welcome @Gothmog Lord of Balrogs!

Great to see someone else excited about TOW, and a good analysis of our new Spears vs Hand Weapons conundrum for Saurus. I'm definitely going to take all of this into account in my tactica thread...
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I guess we will see what happens! Low ini I guess kinda makes this interesting, maybe?
 
Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
I wouldn't say it kills them, because the one aspect that isn't so bad about Impetuous or Frenzy in TOW is that you get to choose your charge target if multiple units are within charge range - you don't have to charge the nearest enemy unit as you had to for Frenzy in 8th Edition. So long as you make use of your turns when your unit is out of charge range of anybody, so that it ends up in charge range of the unit you want it to take out, then very little can stop you just charging that unit Impetuous or not. Positioning is key.

Also note that Skirmishers generally block charging, so an easy way to control Impetuous and Frenzied units is to keep a screen of friendly Skirmishers in front of them until your Impetuous/Frenzied unit is within charging distance of the unit you want it to kill, then move the Skirmishers out of the way and let your Impetuous/Frenzied unit do its thing. In the case of Ripperdactyls you can use Terradon Riders, for example. Additionally friendly Skirmishers can also play Skirmisher Wars with enemy Skirmishers that are trying to block your designated target enemy from being charged by your Impetuous unit.
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Which is fine if you use them like heavy cavalry, put them on the front line with a cloud of skinks and want to get a charge out on a near enemy

But with a fly of 9 you likely want them to run around the back of the opponents army, take down war machines and casters trying to get protection. Or flank/rear the right unit. This will be very hard if you are possibly charging any unit within 21 inches...
 
Gothmog Lord of Balrogs said:
As far as I can tell, the shield has the same effect with a HW or Spear. So same AV for us. What spears do is allow the second rank to make supporting attacks.
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Okay silly me. I thought we dropped the shield as a spear was two handed. That changes everything.

Can anyone with Serephon confirm if you can glue the spear models all with the tip pointed upwards?
 
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