AoS The new Battletome: A Discussion

[Putzfrau]

What is Coalesced then? Saurus Warrior spam? Saurus Knight spam? He really only had 50 Skinks in his list, that is actually rather low for a Fangs of Sotek army imo. The total wound count is around 125 which is about the same as most Saurus lists that I have seen. Obviously its a little on the lower end, but thats because he has invested so many points into a Troglodon etc., which is the same amount of points as another blob of 40 Skinks.

I mean most of us here have yet to play a real game with the new tome (I dont really give much for Tabletop Simulator), so theorycrafting should always be taken with a grain of salt, but the guy got a lot of experience and likely got more podiums than all of us combined, so I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss his ideas and thoughtprocess.

You can make a pretty ridiculous shooting list in thunder lizard. And i think theres always something good about taking 150+ wounds of stuff that reduces damage by 1 and has a 4+. It'll take a lot to chomp through that.

I know you said you don't care much for TTS, but i've played a lot of lists on there of various shapes and sizes if anyone has any questions.

 

[Xuil]

I also just noted the wording on the Teclis ‘auto cast’s. The fact it gives a casting value could either be to trigger the ‘higher level’ effects, or it could mean we can still dispel them..?

If they dominate, the value of our Slann reroll artefact/trait could increase?

Also, would someone mind PMing me the discord link?

 

[Canas]

What is Coalesced then? Saurus Warrior spam? Saurus Knight spam? He really only had 50 Skinks in his list, that is actually rather low for a Fangs of Sotek army imo. The total wound count is around 125 which is about the same as most Saurus lists that I have seen. Obviously its a little on the lower end, but thats because he has invested so many points into a Troglodon etc., which is the same amount of points as another blob of 40 Skinks.

I mean most of us here have yet to play a real game with the new tome (I dont really give much for Tabletop Simulator), so theorycrafting should always be taken with a grain of salt, but the guy got a lot of experience and likely got more podiums than all of us combined, so I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss his ideas and thoughtprocess.

His summoning mostly revolves around summoning fresh skinks.
His army consists of 3 things: 1) Summoners 2) Skinks 3) A few guard.

That's fairly skink spammy...

And again, I didn't say skink spam, I said skink spam, but this time backed up by Kroak (who actually gets to do damage this time around instead of sacrificing all his spells). It's pretty much how the old summoning lists played. Just that instead of purely playing for objectives we might actually kill some stuff with our summoners (or well, with Kroak mostly...).

Edit: Will the most often answer be to summon 10 Skinks? Likely. But there will be situations where you want that one Salamander, or another 3 fresh Terradons to bomb something, or call in a Terradon/Ripper Chief because you didnt need them until turn 3 etc., or a new Skink hero.

That's pretty much literally just the old summoning. Summon skinks 9 out of 10 times, and occasionally summon an odd salamander/razordon/minor hero...

 

[Canas]

it's also stationary and I'm betting you have to fit the unit inside it San Antonio going to help on foot Wizards and even then it's going to tie them down

If they can drop it on a capable melee target that's still going to be horrific to deal with. Plus, given that Teclis already has 4 casts I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be impossible to just dispell, move and recast then recast it without wasting all your army's spellcasts. Combined with a capable melee wizard that'd be pretty powerfull.

 

[Nart]

I mean most of us here have yet to play a real game with the new tome (I dont really give much for Tabletop Simulator)

Why? Because it is digital? And digital books are not real books? I can get this point in case of 40k, which has way more problems, but either system is very good and close representation of real tabletop experience. I see no reason not to consider TTS game results (other than insane amount of some unit types which are not as easy to access IRL, but it is also a matter of time for dedicated competitive players).

since they can summon bodies onto an objective etc.

And what bodies would it be if not skinks again? Maybe saurus, which I mentioned. What is the point of summoning a carnosaur turn 4 and have about 40% chance to even get it into battle? I'd better summon a couple of sallies and 100% fry what I want with ranged attacks. Same with all other options. You have to wait at least 1 more turn to rely on them doing anything after summoning them. This means, that the most appealing units are those that do their job from the moment you have summoned them. Which, once again, leaves us with skinks, salamanders, saurus and guard.

but that might be why we see the current summoning so different

I don't really see how it is different. Exactly the same mechanics with more limitations. I don't think, that we suffer from it, but it doesn't make it good. Everything more expansive than 10 CCP is just not worth summoning, maybe, except kroxigors. Heroes which use their abilities in combat phase maybe ok if you happened to lose them early on, maybe ok, but that's it. I am not disappointed that we cannot summon wave after wave of skinks like before. I am disappoineted that there are 3-4 obvious choices and 3/4 of the summoning lists is plain useless.

Edit: Will the most often answer be to summon 10 Skinks? Likely. But there will be situations where you want that one Salamander, or another 3 fresh Terradons to bomb something, or call in a Terradon/Ripper Chief because you didnt need them until turn 3 etc., or a new Skink hero.

I already mentioned salamanders. For 10 CCP they are the best thing to summon in terms of damage and can be called early on. Yes, summoning chief may be useful, but what if: 1) I won't generate enough CCP because of bad dice before turn when I need him? 2) Will my slann/astrolith be in a good position to summon it? 3) Shall I have free LoSaT to teleport it in such a position if not? 4) Will it make them more vulnerable if I teleport them in such position? Maybe they won't be where they need to be if I do that?

After such considerations I'd rather take chief with me in the first place and won't be concerned about such things. And this doesn't suddenly make our summoning a toolbox, because we are still stuck in 10 CCP part, except, maybe, kroxigors. Previous summoning were way closer to toolbox IMO, because we could indeed summon the stuff we needed. If the list were about bodies, we could summon big monster later. If we brought mostly monsters, we could summon chaff, etc. etc.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

If they can drop it on a capable melee target that's still going to be horrific to deal with. Plus, given that Teclis already has 4 casts I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be impossible to just dispell, move and recast then recast it without wasting all your army's spellcasts. Combined with a capable melee wizard that'd be pretty powerfull.

If they drop it on melee unit you just ignore them they can't hurt you and they won't be big enough to hold a objective against you you

 

[Putzfrau]

Why? Because it is digital? And digital books are not real books? I can get this point in case of 40k, which has way more problems, but either system is very good and close representation of real tabletop experience. I see no reason not to consider TTS game results (other than insane amount of some unit types which are not as easy to access IRL, but it is also a matter of time for dedicated competitive players).

Some of the nuances of melee are lost in TTS. It just becomes a lot harder/annoying to play a list with 2 units of 40 saurus than a shooting/magic based list that doesnt require you to mess around with precisely moving and piling in a bunch of models.

Either way, i think these online games have made it fairly obvious that our shooting and magic is extremely strong (if it wasn't obvious already).

It's basically the bane of TTS right now.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Some of the nuances of melee are lost in TTS. It just becomes a lot harder/annoying to play a list with 2 units of 40 saurus than a shooting/magic based list that doesnt require you to mess around with precisely moving and piling in a bunch of models.

Either way, i think these online games have made it fairly obvious that our shooting and magic is extremely strong (if it wasn't obvious already).

It's basically the bane of TTS right now.

so are shooting is really good when its main counter is hamstrung good to know

 

[Putzfrau]

so are shooting is really good when its main counter is hamstrung good to know

Meh, I dunno if i'd use the word hamstrung. I think its more people are less likely to bring hordes in TTS just cuase when all the options are available to you, who wants to move hundreds of models around with a mouse and keyboard.

Also, seraphon match up really well against Mortek and Warclans anyways, which are the two most popular horde armies. I dont see the tabletop being that much different than TTS in that respect

 

[Nart]

I also just noted the wording on the Teclis ‘auto cast’s. The fact it gives a casting value could either be to trigger the ‘higher level’ effects, or it could mean we can still dispel them..?

I understand it that way, that 10 casting value is the value of auto-cast, not of the spell itself. So, yes, there's always a chance to dispell it, but very low. Kroak with +2/+3 to unbind could be very helpful here. But what about other factions, that have no bonuses to unbind?

Some of the nuances of melee are lost in TTS.

I don't argue, that it is not perfect replication, but it is still not a reason to devaluate results of tts games.

It's basically the bane of TTS right now.

I guess, nothing would be changed on table. We don't have 25mm-based models with 2" range, which are often the core of melee armies. Our shooting is plain better than our melee.

 

[Putzfrau]

I guess, nothing would be changed on table. We don't have 25mm-based models with 2" range, which are often the core of melee armies. Our shooting is plain better than our melee.

For whatever reason, the most competitive form of lizards has always been a primarily shooty army. I had kind of hoped this new book would change that but oh well.

 

[Canas]

If they drop it on melee unit you just ignore them they can't hurt you and they won't be big enough to hold a objective against you you

well yeah, but that makes for a melee powerhouse that can just wander around without a care in the world. It really depends what targets it can be placed on but it seems tremendously powerfull (especially if the opponent lacks ranged attacks or spells to circumvent it...)

 

[Erta Wanderer]

well yeah, but that makes for a melee powerhouse that can just wander around without a care in the world. It really depends what targets it can be placed on but it seems tremendously powerfull (especially if the opponent lacks ranged attacks or spells to circumvent it...)

Wander around and do nothing the minute they charge they leave it behind

 

[Canas]

Wander around and do nothing the minute they charge they leave it behind

And then it turns out they can move with it cuz they have a teleport to charge with

Anyways, it seems rather powerfull defensivly. Even if it makes them stationairy I don't think there's another buff that even begins to compare in terms of power.

 

[Killer Angel]

I understand it that way, that 10 casting value is the value of auto-cast, not of the spell itself. So, yes, there's always a chance to dispell it, but very low. Kroak with +2/+3 to unbind could be very helpful here. But what about other factions, that have no bonuses to unbind?

Geez, our strongest tool is magic, if we focus on it we have a chance to counter Teclis, Nagash and Tzeentch.
The other armies will just suck.

 

[Grotpunter]

Some of the nuances of melee are lost in TTS. It just becomes a lot harder/annoying to play a list with 2 units of 40 saurus than a shooting/magic based list that doesnt require you to mess around with precisely moving and piling in a bunch of models.

Either way, i think these online games have made it fairly obvious that our shooting and magic is extremely strong (if it wasn't obvious already).

It's basically the bane of TTS right now.

Yeah thats my point. The whole melee/combat aspect is really different on TTS, so I would guess a lot of people prefer to play shooting/casting to not mess too much about with doing pile-ins, honeycombing models to maximize attacks etc. Your experience with TTS itself/online gaming will also affect the outcome.

Thats why I dont care too much about the results. You can obviously get a general idea of things, but it isnt a true representation of how armies will fare against each other compared to the actual physical table.

 

[Nart]

The whole melee/combat aspect is really different on TTS

It is not different, it is just more inconvenient. If a player wants to play close combat on tournament, they will certainly do it. Our group containts a enough melee armies and even armies with limited shooting. Yes, the process of model placement is a bit time-consuming and problematic and there are enough "let's count it standing there" because a model just won't stand properly, but that doesn't make the TTS experience different to the extent of "not counting it". The game has a lot of aspects besides close combat and they are represented exactly as they would be on physical table.

 

[Grotpunter]

It is not different, it is just more inconvenient.

But thats exactly what I said. Many will then either deviate from playing largely melee or the results will not be the same. Just rank and filing vs piling in correctly or honeycombing units is a big difference.

 

[Putzfrau]

But thats exactly what I said. Many will then either deviate from playing largely melee or the results will not be the same. Just rank and filing vs piling in correctly or honeycombing units is a big difference.

I think what @Nart is saying is that the difference really isn't big enough to discount the whole medium.

I'd tend to agree. Especially when we are talking about piling in, honeycombing the biggest difference is just number of models swinging. You can easily make up for that by just agreeing with your opponent that a few more would probably realistically be in combat.

It's not the same, but it's close enough. I think it proves that our shooting and magic builds are incredibly good (which everyone was already kind of nodding their heads too just from reading the book). I think you could also argue that coalesced horde-based builds are stronger than they appear right now, but probably not stronger than our shooting/magic builds.

Only time will tell.

 

[Nart]

But thats exactly what I said. Many will then either deviate from playing largely melee or the results will not be the same. Just rank and filing vs piling in correctly or honeycombing units is a big difference.

But you said, that we should discard the results of TTS games as a whole, because honeycombing is impossible just because of this inconvenience. And I strongly disagree on this. Inonvenient =/= impossible. In if you really want to play a melee list, you can play it and play it to very high effectiveness. I tend to go in melee with skinks in every game and place them in two rows rather effectively. I get the same 17-18 skinks in range, that I've got during IRL test. Last game I played Knight-centered list and they were great despite all the problems with getting them in range. My experience in AoS TTS games is exactly the same as my experience with couple of games I had before shutdown. And in all of this games I had the same experience with skink blobs in melee.

I doubt that any competitive player will be discouraged to go melee-based if they really want to.