AoS The new Battletome: A Discussion

[Nart]

Edit: I really like his take on summoning as well. It is a toolbox that gives you options/tools depending on the situation. It is also interesting to load your list with Terradons/Rippers but no Chief, and instead rely on summoning one in when you need it. Gives you more points for extra bound endless spells or whatever.

But the problem of our summoning that it isn't a toolbox. No matter how people disliked our old summoning, I still think that it was the best ballanced one in the game. The only problems were the fact that it was tied to slann general, we had it 100% over spells (mostly because we didn't have spells and when we got them, they were still bad) and that our bad warscrolls forced us to go skink spams. I like the idea of adjustments, but they've got a bit too far with point costs, IMO. Instead of eliminating skink spam they made it the only option. In my review I mentioned a couple of units that are nice for summoning, but in fact you will need to spend CCP in early game to gain initiative. This leaves you with literally two options - skinks (bodies to take objectives) and salamander (even a single salamander has decent damage and will 100% fire after summoning). All other options are either underwhelming (except, maybe guard or 10 saurus) or simply too expensive to summon in the early game. If you feel that you can conserve CCP, most likely, you are already winning, which makes summoning a tool to finish off already losing opponent and not something that helps you to turn the tide.

That's why I wouldn't consider Seraphon summoning a tool. Summoning a chief may be interesting on paper, but in fact you may have so much trouble with positioning, that bringing him in the first place will be way more worth 1 more leader slot or endless spell.

 

[Canas]

we now have a good chunk of info for the new elves thank you Jairo over on discord

well that's not broken at all.... Seriously Teclis autocasting spells, the spells themselves being rather insane (why the hell does he have a 5+ wardsave bubble?), stoneguard apparently being borderline immortal, everything appears to be rather cheap... totally not worrisome at all.

 

[Nart]

we now have a good chunk of info for the new elves thank you Jairo over on discord

Yeah, just wanted to post this too.

Our prophecies come true. This one looks like the most busted thing in AoS so far. Teclis costs as much as Allariel. And can do THIS. I don't know what to say.

 

[Canas]

But the problem of our summoning that it isn't a toolbox. No matter how people disliked our old summoning, I still think that it was the best ballanced one in the game. The only problems were the fact that it was tied to slann general, we had it 100% over spells (mostly because we didn't have spells and when we got them, they were still bad) and that our bad warscrolls forced us to go skink spams. I like the idea of adjustments, but they've got a bit too far with point costs, IMO. Instead of eliminating skink spam they made it the only option. In my review I mentioned a couple of units that are nice for summoning, but in fact you will need to spend CCP in early game to gain initiative. This leaves you with literally two options - skinks (bodies to take objectives) and salamander (even a single salamander has decent damage and will 100% fire after summoning). All other options are either underwhelming (except, maybe guard or 10 saurus) or simply too expensive to summon in the early game. If you feel that you can conserve CCP, most likely, you are already winning, which makes summoning a tool to finish off already losing opponent and not something that helps you to turn the tide.

That's why I wouldn't consider Seraphon summoning a tool. Summoning a chief may be interesting on paper, but in fact you may have so much trouble with positioning, that bringing him in the first place will be way more worth 1 more leader slot or endless spell.

The example of the skink chief is literally the only good one as it's the only summoning option we have with a dramatic impact with a single summon (assuming you already have terradons on the table). For nearly everything else (bar our big dino's) a single summon will simply not achieve all that much. For summoning to work as a toolbox you need to be able to summon in combo's. And we simply can't summon that quickly.

 

[Killer Angel]

Our prophecies come true. This one looks like the most busted thing in AoS so far. Teclis costs as much as Allariel. And can do THIS. I don't know what to say.

You know what? I'm happy.
Seriously.

Because at this point i want to believe no one will dare to say that we are broken or overpowered, because seriously, WTF.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

You know what? I'm happy.
Seriously.

Because at this point i want to believe no one will dare to say that we are broken or overpowered, because seriously, WTF.

It would be hard after seeing Stone guard they cost the same as our guard and are about three times better

 

[Killer Angel]

It would be hard after seeing Stone guard they cost the same as our guard and are about three times better

Alas, i already know some people that will say that AoS is balanced, you cannot look at the warscroll alone, yadda yadda.

 

[Canas]

Alas, i already know some people that will say that AoS is balanced, you cannot look at the warscroll alone, yadda yadda.

I'm really curious what the hell the elves drawback is supposed to be though. So far the closest we've had is the line in those pictures stating the stone guard are "slow, for an elf". Which you know, probably means they have a movement of "only" 6" while all others go 10"+ or something ridiculous...

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I'm really curious what the hell the elves drawback is supposed to be though. So far the closest we've had is the line in those pictures stating the stone guard are "slow, for an elf". Which you know, probably means they have a movement of "only" 6" while all others go 10"+ or something ridiculous...

They aren't even all that expensive 10 guys for 140 is pretty good and even their Elite guys aren't terribly expensive

 

[Killer Angel]

I fear that, despite the amount of theoretical options our battletome gave us, in a brief arc of time our competitive lists will become just MWs spam.

 

[Xuil]

Based on today’s reveals, I feel like our ability to hand-wave away multiple endless spells may be more valuable than first thought. Although you can bet the lumineth dispel game will be strong...

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Based on today’s reveals, I feel like our ability to hand-wave away multiple endless spells may be more valuable than first thought. Although you can bet the lumineth dispel game will be strong...

Really? the only one I'm worried about is twin stones and we don't even know what it does yet

 

[Grotpunter]

I don't like his list, it's basicly just skink spam, but this time backed up by Kroak's mortal wounds, a few terradons & a troglodon & if he ever has enough bodies survive that he doesn't need skinks he'l summon something more usefull.

As for summoning, the basic idea behind it that he has is good and fun. But again this list is mostly just Kroak defended by endless waves of skinks. Using summoning as a toolbox only really becomes relevant once he's created enough breathing room for himself that he doesn't need more skinks and can actually afford the lower bodycount per CCP of other options. If an opponent can kill what few bodies he has on the table quickly enough, outlast Kroak's damage output, or better yet kill a part of his summoning core, then his toolbox rapidly becomes very limited. And that's in addition to the issues he's mentioned himself (e.g. everblaze comment wrecking havoc with his command squad playstyle)

And of course as he said, he hasn't actually played any games with this yet, so it's all just theorycrafting when it comes down to it.

What is Coalesced then? Saurus Warrior spam? Saurus Knight spam? He really only had 50 Skinks in his list, that is actually rather low for a Fangs of Sotek army imo. The total wound count is around 125 which is about the same as most Saurus lists that I have seen. Obviously its a little on the lower end, but thats because he has invested so many points into a Troglodon etc., which is the same amount of points as another blob of 40 Skinks.

I mean most of us here have yet to play a real game with the new tome (I dont really give much for Tabletop Simulator), so theorycrafting should always be taken with a grain of salt, but the guy got a lot of experience and likely got more podiums than all of us combined, so I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss his ideas and thoughtprocess.

 

[Grotpunter]

But the problem of our summoning that it isn't a toolbox. No matter how people disliked our old summoning, I still think that it was the best ballanced one in the game. The only problems were the fact that it was tied to slann general, we had it 100% over spells (mostly because we didn't have spells and when we got them, they were still bad) and that our bad warscrolls forced us to go skink spams. I like the idea of adjustments, but they've got a bit too far with point costs, IMO. Instead of eliminating skink spam they made it the only option. In my review I mentioned a couple of units that are nice for summoning, but in fact you will need to spend CCP in early game to gain initiative. This leaves you with literally two options - skinks (bodies to take objectives) and salamander (even a single salamander has decent damage and will 100% fire after summoning). All other options are either underwhelming (except, maybe guard or 10 saurus) or simply too expensive to summon in the early game. If you feel that you can conserve CCP, most likely, you are already winning, which makes summoning a tool to finish off already losing opponent and not something that helps you to turn the tide.

That's why I wouldn't consider Seraphon summoning a tool. Summoning a chief may be interesting on paper, but in fact you may have so much trouble with positioning, that bringing him in the first place will be way more worth 1 more leader slot or endless spell.

I feel like we play 2 very different games. Whenever you talk about summoning you make it sound like every game is almost over by the end of battle round 2. Thats just not what is happening in my games. As he talked about in the podcast too, most games in tournaments are decided in round 4/5 where especially summoning armies got a big advantage, since they can summon bodies onto an objective etc.

Our old summoning was broken beyond belief IMO, but that might be why we see the current summoning so different. If you believe the old system was "fine" and came to expect something similar, I can understand why you are disappointed at the new CCP system. I think its great. I would have liked a steady amount of CCP rather than a D3, but I guess it is to create some lows and highs.

Edit: Will the most often answer be to summon 10 Skinks? Likely. But there will be situations where you want that one Salamander, or another 3 fresh Terradons to bomb something, or call in a Terradon/Ripper Chief because you didnt need them until turn 3 etc., or a new Skink hero.

 

[Killer Angel]

Really? the only one I'm worried about is twin stones and we don't even know what it does yet

I love how lumineth are immune to the effects of the rune of petrification. They don't need bound endless spells...

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I love how lumineth are immune to the effects of the rune of petrification. They don't need bound endless spells...

Yeah but that's common amongst faction specific endless spells and the Rune of petrification isn't very good half a chance to deal 1d3 and -1 to charge if you're within 6 it is not worth casting

 

[Killer Angel]

Yeah but that's common amongst faction specific endless spells and the Rune of petrification isn't very good half a chance to deal 1d3 and -1 to charge if you're within 6 it is not worth casting

True enough

 

[Canas]

Lumineth endless spells

Do note the ridiculously powerfull defensive spell (+1 to saves, -1 to being hit, explode into mortal wounds for anyone near you if someone has the audacity to attack you)

Also a crystal that builds charges, which doesn't actually explain what it does with the charges.

Yeah but that's common amongst faction specific endless spells and the Rune of petrification isn't very good half a chance to deal 1d3 and -1 to charge if you're within 6 it is not worth casting

in fairness, that really shouldn't be a thing. Being immune to your own endless spells takes away the one significant limitation endless spells have.

 

[Xuil]

I feel like I’ve read a different spell to the rest of you...

At the start AND end of the movement phase. Two rolls in their turn, so an average D3 wound bomb, before a chance to dispel it. Then we either dispel or it’s another two rolls in our turn.

It’s not the absolute best spell ever, but it’s a super high priority to dispel, if it’s covering your back line or RSE.

I was referring mainly to the twin stones however. Wizards draw on their power (in some way), and the last thing we want is something contesting our magic game with empowered dispels.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Lumineth endless spells

Do note the ridiculously powerfull defensive spell (+1 to saves, -1 to being hit, explode into mortal wounds for anyone near you if someone has the audacity to attack you)

it's also stationary and I'm betting you have to fit the unit inside it San Antonio going to help on foot Wizards and even then it's going to tie them down