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Tutorial The art of Summoning

Byte said:
Hello everybody.
Today I played a new game and my opponent has made me doubt about the two endless spells that we usually use with the Seraphons.
When I read the descripción of Balewind Vortex, It says: " A Wizard on a Balewind Vortex can attempt to cast an additional spell in each of their hero phase"

I have played with Slann, and in my first turn I casted right BV spell and Cogs spell. Them, in my second turn, when I was going to change my 5 spells for 15 CCPs he said: "You can't do that. Your Slann Just knows 3 spells, so you just can change 3 spell for 9 CPPs"
He said that bases on the Next sentence written in the general handbook: "In your hero phase before attempting to Cast a spell with a Slann general, you can say that it Will Carry out CP intead"

So, If my Slann Just knows 3 spells I Just can "attempting to Cast" 3 spells.

Is he right?

(Sorry again for my English)
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@The17thYak is right.

as explicitly stated by the rules for endless spells, when you buy (with points) an endless spell, each wizard in your army knows it, so with 2 ES, the Slann knows both of them, going to 5 spell known. Plus, the slann now knows also one additional spell from our lore, for a total (in this case) of 6 spell known.
ad if you play in a realm (you should), you know also additional spell from that realm.

Vortex and Cogs let you cast an extra spell. You gain 3 CCP by renouncing to a casting attemp, so you forego the extra attempts of casting and gain CCP for that. That's how the rules work.


the only vaguely plausible objection would be "in matched play you cannot cast twice the same endless spell, so even if your Slann knows Vortex, that spell cannot be cast, so you cannot renounce to cast a spell you cannot cast"
but rules don't work that way. You skip the attempt to cast a spell and accumulate CCP, so the spell wasn't even attempted. You don't have to declare what spell you forego… but you could forego each time "arcane bolt", cause a spell can be cast or attempted to cast only once, but you renounce to the attempt.

Seriously, AoS got many unclear rules, but this one is not one of those
 
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The17thYak said:
You opponent has it wrong, it is for each casting attempt so adding the Balewind and Cogs gives two extra spell attempts so 2 x 3 CCP. Of course by his logic that it is based on known spells then that would be even better for us. A Slann now knows four spells with the spell lore adding an extra and given that the Endless spells bought are considered to be known by all wizards then the Slann knows those spells as well, therefore getting those extra 6 CCP for knowing Balewind and Cogs without casting them. Further there would be nothing to stop us also buying a load more cheap endless spells to "know" like Malevolent Maelstrom and Quicksilver Swords for even more CCP, easily getting to over 30 CCP per turn.
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Use the general trait to know the skink spells, tada another 6CCP.

Seriously that'd be hilariously broken, you could easily setup something where you could summon entire armies eacht turn.

There's 18 endless spells (total combined cost 870)
There's the three basic spells every slann knows.
There's a realm spell
There's a lore spell
There's the two skink spells

That's 24! spells. That's 72 points per turn. And then there's still the points from the Astrolith & the default point you get for a slann being your general. You could summon a dread saurian each turn and still have points left to summon half entire army that turn. It'd be hilarious.
 
Killer Angel said:
@The17thYak
In matched play you cannot cast twice the same endless spell, so even if your Slann knows Vortex, that spell cannot be cast, so you cannot renounce to cast a spell you cannot cast"
but rules don't work that way. You skip the attempt to cast a spell and accumulate CCP, so the spell wasn't even attempted.
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I think this point is the key of the question.
If You need yo know a spell yo give Up calle It.
 
Let's put it simple.

1) your Slann knows 4 spells (the 3 basic listed in the warscroll, plus the one from seraphon lore) plus any Endless spells you've payed. Let's say Balewind vortex. So 5 spells known
2) a Slann can normally cast 3 spells
3) "A Wizard on a Balewind Vortex can attempt to cast an additional spell in each of their hero phase". The slann knows 5 spells and can attempt to cast four of them
4) "In your hero phase before attempting to Cast a spell with a Slann general, you can say that it Will Carry out CP intead". A slann on vortex got 4 attempts. You can take CCP 4 times (12 CCP).
 
Almost good. Now I bind Cog spell. I have 5 attemps. The problem is that You can't attemp to bind BV or Cog again because both are activate.You can't bind 2 times the same endless spell. So,I just can attemp 4 spell, The 3 basics and Lore spell, although I have 5 attemps.
What do you think?
 
All the summoning rule says is "before attempting a spell you can say you instead say you don't and generate summoning points instead". It says nothing about needing to know the spell, or even being able to succesfully cast the spell at all. Based on how it's written you could say your slann is going to give up an "attempt" to cast tzeentch's bolt of change in exchange for summoning points even if he would never actually be succesfull at that attempt.

All that matters is the number of spellcasts that your slann has available, which with cog's and BV is 5.
 
After reading all your messages and after reading the magic rules more carefully, I think I've already found the solution.

The basic rules of magic say the following: "In order to cast a spell, first say which spell the wizard is going to attempt to use (it must be one they know). To cast the spell, roll 2D6. If the total is equal to or greater than the casting value of the spell, the spell is successfully cast."

The Seraphon invocation rules say the following: "In your hero phase, before attempting to cast a spell, you can say that it will carry out celestial conjuration points instead. If you do so, you receive 3 celestial conjuration points instead of being able to attemp to cast that spell."

So, before you try to cast a spell, you don't have to say which spell you're going to cast. And after you win the CCPs, you spend an attempt to cast a spell for those CCPs. That's all.

I think that's enough explanation.

What do you think?
 
Another doubt, although this one is much easier than the previous ones. I even know the answer but just in case. :-)

Astrolith Bearer, his "Celestial Conduit" ability adds 1 to a magician's spell cast rolls. The question is: Does it add 1 to attempts to disperse a spell?
I understand it doesn't. :-(
 
Byte said:
"In your hero phase, before attempting to cast a spell,

So, before you try to cast a spell, you don't have to say which spell you're going to cast. And after you win the CCPs, you spend an attempt to cast a spell for those CCPs. That's all.
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Yep. As we said, you collect CCP because you renounce to the attempt. So, you don't even have to tell what would have been the spell.

Byte said:
Another doubt, although this one is much easier than the previous ones. I even know the answer but just in case. :)

Astrolith Bearer, his "Celestial Conduit" ability adds 1 to a magician's spell cast rolls. The question is: Does it add 1 to attempts to disperse a spell?
I understand it doesn't. :-(
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Sadly yes, you knew the right answer.
 
Lord Skal'terakk said:
This tutorial is legendary. Thank you for your hard work Angel, it is amazing and really really helpful, especially for people who are just starting and don't completely get how seraphon play. Cheers!
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Glad you liked it, it was the reason i made it. :)

BTW, have you checked the tutorial about Seraphon in the GHB2019? ;)
 
Killer Angel said:
SUMMONABLE UNITS with 24 Celestial Conjuration Points (CCPs)​

OK guys, you all know this is where the good things await.
With a dedicated setting, you will be able to conjure one of these by turn 2.
Be careful: all the 24 CCPs unit wants to enter cc asap, so prepare something that helps them in this regard (Cogs FTW)



BASTILADON (Excellent)

The bastiladon is no more the "must have" dino it was once, but it's still terribly effective.
its goodness comes also with its ability to be conjured with the set-up you need more.
Need Shooting? lasers
Need mortal wounds against amassed enemies? snakes. (in this case, it's truly mandatory to have a bonus to charge, to send your dude into the fray).


STEGADON (Excellent)

As the bastiladon, its usefulness come with the different weaponry.
Need to kill a single target? Bow, and exploit the rerolls granted by the astrolith bearer.
Need to stomp a horde? flamers!
In both cases, it's mandatory to have a bonus to charge, as you cannot use the skink chief ability when conjured, and you WANT your steggy to crush immediately your opponent. With no bonuses to charge, is "only" good.


SAURUS OLDBLOOD ON CARNO (Excellent)

Summon it, point it toward the target, shoot the gauntlet and then release the pain.


SAURUS SCARVET ON CARNO (Good)

Slightly worse than the Oldblood, probably you should summon it only if you plan to use the command ability in the following turn (your main attack with a large number of nearby saurus to be buffed, an astrolith that with the rerolls increases the additional number of additional attacks).




SUMMONABLE UNITS with 40 Celestial Conjuration Points (CCPs)​


DREAD SAURAN (suboptimal)

yeah, it can be done, and certainly the face of your opponent will compensate your effort (especially if you had a Dread Saurian in the army since turn 1, then it's killed and you just conjure it again).
But it will enter late in the game, at most at turn 3, if you sacrifice all the previous turns summoning.
So ask yourself: what else could you do with those 40 pts?
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DS can be summoned turn 2 if you manage to roll a 2 and a 3 on the D3 from the AB, have kroak dedicated CCP generation, starpriest summons cogs, kroak uses them and summons BWV on turn 1. but yeah... that's an investment.
 
ILKAIN said:
DS can be summoned turn 2 if you manage to roll a 2 and a 3 on the D3 from the AB, have kroak dedicated CCP generation, starpriest summons cogs, kroak uses them and summons BWV on turn 1. but yeah... that's an investment.
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well, yes. But it's still a very specific build, that requires a good amount of luck and no unbind from the opponent, and even in that case you are blocking for 2 turns an amount of points greater than the cost of the DS itself.
But yeah, in theory we are able to summon a DS by turn 2. Impressive.
 
Hey everyone, i have a basic question for the summoning. I‘m sorry if this was already asked but i did not find the answer.
My question is, how far from the Slann can i summon units? Is it the 15“ range within the Slann, but 9“ away from enemy units? Or is it just the 9“ away from enemy units? Thanks dir helping me out
 
BobbyHobby said:
Hey everyone, i have a basic question for the summoning. I‘m sorry if this was already asked but i did not find the answer.
My question is, how far from the Slann can i summon units? Is it the 15“ range within the Slann, but 9“ away from enemy units? Or is it just the 9“ away from enemy units? Thanks dir helping me out
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must be within 12" of either a slann or a astrolith bearer and 9" away from enemies. beyond that no max range
 
BobbyHobby said:
ok, thanks a lot. But what do you mean with „beyond That no max range“ ? As far as i understand it, is 12“ the Max range!?
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if the slann is in one corner and the astrolith is 3 feet away you can still summon next to the astrolith the slann is the one summoning and this gives him a 4 foot range(to that one spot). often used by teleporting a astrolith behind enemy lines and droping 100 skinks
 
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