Tutorial Tactics for Seraphon - Troops

[Bowser]

With a bloodclaw starhost you could use the ability 3 times (if you want to take 3 Scar-Vet on Cold One) and yes it would stack. I can think of better ways to use the bloodclaw starhost, but this would work.

 

[shole]

Bowser can u provide us of some examples? I use the bloodclaw with 2 scar vet on co and 1 sunblood alongside with 10 knights.

 

[Bowser]

Bowser can u provide us of some examples? I use the bloodclaw with 2 scar vet on co and 1 sunblood alongside with 10 knights.

That's a perfect example right there. having two with a sunblood for rerolls. Or putting in a scar-vet on carno running the dual carnos with a sunblood and a scar-vet on cold one. generating extra hits re-rollable not just on 1s plus adding extra bites. Or throw in an oldblood on foot, that reform can be quite powerful.

 

[Arctur]

Only one can be general... So there is nothing to stack... The second one can't use his command ability...

Still, the GH says min 1 max 1, doesn't that mean you can only have one? (btw, I figured out how he was getting the extra attacks)

 

[Killer Angel]

Still, the GH says min 1 max 1, doesn't that mean you can only have one? (btw, I figured out how he was getting the extra attacks)

You can have just ONE general, and the general can use its command ability. However, there are some ways to let your other heroes use their command abilities, even if they are not the general.
We can use the Bloodclaw Starhost, Dwarfs have the Longbeards, Tomb Kings have Settra...

 

[shole]

That's a perfect example right there. having two with a sunblood for rerolls. Or putting in a scar-vet on carno running the dual carnos with a sunblood and a scar-vet on cold one. generating extra hits re-rollable not just on 1s plus adding extra bites. Or throw in an oldblood on foot, that reform can be quite powerful.

That's one great idea. I use a bastiladon and a stagadon in my list. I can add the scar vet on carno, having 4 beasts the heroes and the unit of knights for the extra meet and dmg. I'll try to use vs elite armies with not a lot models

 

[Soul Zenmuron]

Still, the GH says min 1 max 1, doesn't that mean you can only have one? (btw, I figured out how he was getting the extra attacks)

Remember that heroes counts like units. Max. 1 per unit, that's what that means. You can have 3 scarvets on cold ones with you, but not together.

 

[Tokek]

SAURUS KNIGHTS​

Here they are, our cavalry!

These guys were not spawned to wait for the enemy, or stand their ground: if they don’t move, they’re useful like sitting ducks. Nope, they are our shock troops, the can opener that we employ against defensive lines, our quintessential aggressive unit.

Sadly, they’re not perfect:
They are an elit unit: you summon them less easily than warriors, and they come in fewer numbers.
They have move 7, and other armies have units much faster than them.
They should excel in breaking defensive lines, but there are units that are much more efficient then them in “damage dealing” (see goblins on spiders), while they just deal 1 attack for each model, and with no rend!
...However, you can work around it (for example, they can march at 14”, so this makes ‘em one of our fastest units, barring flying ones), and if you know what you’re doing, they can really shine. Let’s see how.

The first and last thing you need to remember, always, is: they must charge, and they cannot stay in close combat for more than 1 round. They have no rend, and they don’t deal so many attacks to sustain a long combat.

What weapons should they have?
Celestite Blade is 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound
Celestite Lance, is 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and you deal 1 mortal wound on a 6
Let’s say you are using a unit with the minimum number of models (5): tnx to the leader, you deal 6 attacks: with the perfect average rolls, your 6 attacks will roll: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
With the blades, it’s 4 hits, that need to be confirmed with a to wound rolls. No rend.
With the lances, it’s 3 hits, that need to be confirmed. But on a 6 to wound, you inflict a mortal wound.
When lances wounds, they are better.

How many should I field?
It’s clear that you’re counting on that magical 6 to inflict mortal wounds, so you need to deliver them in a sufficiently good number.
5 knights is the minimum required by a unit, but they do only 6 attacks. 10 Knights are better. More than 10, you risk to water down your impact, if the enemy exploits terrains (choke points and similar).

How good is their Formation?
If, for other troops, formations vary from “debatable” to “useful”, for them it’s mandatory.
Firstly, they’ll have a +3 on charge rolls (remember, you need to charge successfully)
Secondly, on a 6 to wound, they deal an additional mortal wound. So, it’s 2 mortal wound for each 6.
That’s good. Really good. It’s a pity we cannot increase our “to wound”, but we can work around it (see "heroes").

What heroes are good for them?
You need essentially 3 heroes for them to work.
Slann Starmaster: you need all the help you can get, and with the Great Drake constellation, you will re-roll the 1’s on to hit (thus increasing the "to wound" rolls, and the chances to roll 6)
The formation requires also a hero: a scar-vet (on cold one or on a carnosaur).
The command ability of the scarvet on cold one gives: additional attacks for cold one’ bites (kinda meh), reroll charges (useful but not decisive), reroll 1’s on to hit (we already have the constellation).
The command ability of the scarvet on carnosaur, gives: 1 additional attack each time you roll a 6 to hit (rerolling 1’s, so another chance to increase the number of subsequent "to wound"). Plus, the abilities of the carnosaur himself.
I’d normally pick the Scar-Vet on Carnosaur.
Skink Starseer. He’ll be useful in 2 different ways: with Cosmic Herald, he can reroll dices, so this means it will be harder to fail charges (thus making less useful the scar-vet on cold one). Then, with Curse of Fate on your knights, they will have a +1 on a dice for each phase… this not only means another +1 on charges’ distance, but you can have a +1 on a dice during the combat phase.
This may not seem great, but you only need to pick a 5 to wound, and make it a 6: that single +1 means 2 mortal wounds. I’d say the spell repays itself pretty nicely.

The tactic should be clear: you are going to chase and charge precious targets, possibly with low bravery, without fearing too much strong defensive formations, exploiting the bonuses you can have.
That unit of 20 Eternal Guards, that save at 3+, rerolling 1s and 2s? hit them with your 10 saurus: between re-rolls of 1s, additional attacks granted by the Scar-vet on Carnosaur, and the +1 of Curse of Fate, you’re going to deliver 4-6 mortal wounds (plus eventual normal wounds)… add the effect of the Stardrake Icon, and the shocking phase should give you nice results. And then you will also have the Carnosaur’s Bloodroar (with a possible re-roll granted by the Starseer), to panic more models.

How about the rest of the army?
You could fit a Troglodon, keeping it near the knights: not only it will help with the spittle, but it will serve as arcane vassal for your Slann (he’s slow and he will stay in the rearline), and the Primeval roar will stack with the effect of the Stardrake Icon, for further fleeing models.
And you can support your Knights with a Stegadon, for a bigger impact (visually and thematically, it would be a really nice army: what’s more terrifying, for the enemy, to be pressed by cavalry on small dinosaurs, and 3 big dinosaurs?).

I still seem to pick up on a lot of negativity about Saurus Knights yet I think the GHB 2017 did a lot to make them much more internally balanced with our other choices.

First and foremost a points drop makes them far more comparable with Saurus Warriors, they now cost the same per wound with the same save and put out the same amount of attacks for the points unless you are really piling on the horde Warriors. For just general-purpose battle-line neither is really as good as Skinks (one of the best battleline units in the game) but otherwise it would be hard to stake a very strong claim that 10 Warriors are always better than 5 Knights.

The Dracothian's Tail really helps Knights out a lot. The ability to just summon a unit in wherever you like without any chance of failure or having it unbound is huge on a unit that is going to be getting a +3 to their charge distance. Losing that +3 before you need it is far less of an issue when we can also summon in the Scar-Vet from the safety of the stars. That +3 from the Firelance Starhost is so much more of a big deal now that any Seraphon unit can be 9" away from a target pretty much any time we like either through summoning or teleporting. We can also summon in any Saurus support we need so getting ahead of key support such as an Astrolith Bearer is no longer such an issue.

Where a lot of units want to use / abuse Damned Terrain what Saurus Knights want most is Mystical Terrain. A unit that gets its punch against hard targets from fishing for 6's on the to wound roll definitely benefits from re-rolls to wound - and a payback of 2 wounds per 6 rolled is really not bad. It is well worth putting Curse of Fate on a decent size unit of Knights deployed next to Mystical Terrain then teleporting them across the table to get stuck in. Summon in the Scar-Vet and an Astrolith Bearer so they also re-roll hits and they will get serious work done, use Curse of Fates to help the charge and then to get an extra mortal wound hit in if you roll any 5's. Then if you are feeling the need to really pile on the massed wounds get a Starpriest to wave their Serpent Staff in their direction; 3/4 of their attacks count as bites for the double damage on 6's. Again with the Serpent Staff taking advantage of Mystical Terrain really helps pile on the damage. A unit of 10 or 15 can just run around being a nuisance or you can commit to buffing them up into a cut-price ripperdactyl substitute.

Or is there something I am missing which means the Knights are still terrible?

 

[Seraphage]

I still seem to pick up on a lot of negativity about Saurus Knights yet I think the GHB 2017 did a lot to make them much more internally balanced with our other choices.

First and foremost a points drop makes them far more comparable with Saurus Warriors, they now cost the same per wound with the same save and put out the same amount of attacks for the points unless you are really piling on the horde Warriors. For just general-purpose battle-line neither is really as good as Skinks (one of the best battleline units in the game) but otherwise it would be hard to stake a very strong claim that 10 Warriors are always better than 5 Knights.

The Dracothian's Tail really helps Knights out a lot. The ability to just summon a unit in wherever you like without any chance of failure or having it unbound is huge on a unit that is going to be getting a +3 to their charge distance. Losing that +3 before you need it is far less of an issue when we can also summon in the Scar-Vet from the safety of the stars. That +3 from the Firelance Starhost is so much more of a big deal now that any Seraphon unit can be 9" away from a target pretty much any time we like either through summoning or teleporting. We can also summon in any Saurus support we need so getting ahead of key support such as an Astrolith Bearer is no longer such an issue.

Where a lot of units want to use / abuse Damned Terrain what Saurus Knights want most is Mystical Terrain. A unit that gets its punch against hard targets from fishing for 6's on the to wound roll definitely benefits from re-rolls to wound - and a payback of 2 wounds per 6 rolled is really not bad. It is well worth putting Curse of Fate on a decent size unit of Knights deployed next to Mystical Terrain then teleporting them across the table to get stuck in. Summon in the Scar-Vet and an Astrolith Bearer so they also re-roll hits and they will get serious work done, use Curse of Fates to help the charge and then to get an extra mortal wound hit in if you roll any 5's. Then if you are feeling the need to really pile on the massed wounds get a Starpriest to wave their Serpent Staff in their direction; 3/4 of their attacks count as bites for the double damage on 6's. Again with the Serpent Staff taking advantage of Mystical Terrain really helps pile on the damage. A unit of 10 or 15 can just run around being a nuisance or you can commit to buffing them up into a cut-price ripperdactyl substitute.

Or is there something I am missing which means the Knights are still terrible?

Definitely better than before but still :

1. Doing MW on WOUND rolls means that their damage output is just too unreliable to be counted in strategies.
2. Their non rend attacks are not bad at all but the meta has lots of elite 2+ rerolling stuff that no knight is gonna wound them.
3. The combo you describe is definitely good but unfortunately it dedicates around 600points *with batallion costs etc* to end up dealing unknown damage. It doesn't feel bad until you compare all those "must have" in order to make the combo and the damage it makes with something equal in points as Allarielle for example. It is by comparing that we get to see why it just cannot compete at the moment in a competitive environment and be consistent as a list.

Your proposals are still good though !

 

[Tokek]

Definitely better than before but still :

1. Doing MW on WOUND rolls means that their damage output is just too unreliable to be counted in strategies.
2. Their non rend attacks are not bad at all but the meta has lots of elite 2+ rerolling stuff that no knight is gonna wound them.
3. The combo you describe is definitely good but unfortunately it dedicates around 600points *with batallion costs etc* to end up dealing unknown damage. It doesn't feel bad until you compare all those "must have" in order to make the combo and the damage it makes with something equal in points as Allarielle for example. It is by comparing that we get to see why it just cannot compete at the moment in a competitive environment and be consistent as a list.

Your proposals are still good though !

1. Yes they are rather caught between being a source of volume attacks or fishing for mortal wounds but not being really specialised at either.
2. They are less hopeless against 2+ rerolling saves than Rippers
3. True. Any combat unit is either going to need help getting into combat or to do enough damage when it gets there. Or both. I would regard that as a fundamental limitation on non-shooting units in the game but I do not want to run a pure shooting army.

 

[Killer Angel]

I still seem to pick up on a lot of negativity about Saurus Knights yet I think the GHB 2017 did a lot to make them much more internally balanced with our other choices.

(snip)

Or is there something I am missing which means the Knights are still terrible?

by themselves, knights are not bad, and they improved with GHB2017. It's 100 pts for 10 wounds that move 7" and save at 5+ (without suffering -1 rend).

Sadly, if you compare them to different armies, they lack the utilities of light cavalries, and lack the punch/resiliance of heavy cavalries, which puts them in a sort of "grey area" (they taste as a wasted opportunity).

Plus, you can indeed squeeze something good out of them (flurry of bites, or try to focus on MW), but it requires an heavy investment of resources (battalions and magical support).

The knights can be useful, but will never be game-changing, so it makes the whole effort not so much appealing in the long run.

 

[Canas]

by themselves, knights are not bad, and they improved with GHB2017. It's 100 pts for 10 wounds that move 7" and save at 5+ (without suffering -1 rend).

Sadly, if you compare them to different armies, they lack the utilities of light cavalries, and lack the punch/resiliance of heavy cavalries, which puts them in a sort of "grey area" (they taste as a wasted opportunity).

Plus, you can indeed squeeze something good out of them (flurry of bites, or try to focus on MW), but it requires an heavy investment of resources (battalions and magical support).

The knights can be useful, but will never be game-changing, so it makes the whole effort not so much appealing in the long run.

They're a 100 points now? I've missed that. That's kind of amazing, it means we finally have halfway capable line infantry (yea yea, skinks are good, but outside of a horde they're also only relevant as bodies, nothing more). Not as expensive or suspectible to mortal wounds as guard, doesn't need to be a horde like warriors or skinks to be a relevant threat, fairly fast, potential for mortal wounds (albeit rather unreliably), our only line infantry that actually works well with a starpriests venom thanks to their mounts. And they're even big enought that we could potentially hide a skink priest or something from sight behind em. It's a shame the mortal wounds are so unreliable, at a 100 points that's the only flaw left as far as line-troops go. Imma buy some Knights.

 

[Killer Angel]

They're a 100 points now? I've missed that. That's kind of Amazing,

yep, the points decrease was much needed!

 

[Canas]

yep, the points decrease was much needed!

my girlfriend isn't going to like this.. Imma need to buy a load of em now, only got 8 from the starter set

 

[Aginor]

my girlfriend isn't going to like this.. Imma need to buy a load of em now, only got 8 from the starter set

I have 16 and IMO they are not too bad for their point cost now.

 

[dinoSTARZ]

Was looking through this for tactics but some seems outdated (though I am very new- only 2 games in with small armies). CAN you make unit hordes of more than 40? It looks like the max for warriors and skinks in a unit are 40 according to the warscroll builder. I have 40 of each and 15 knights as my base army. I've been reading about this bloodclaw starhost and it seems smart, but I agree, I have NO idea how I'd possibly injure the beastclaw raiders for example.

 

[Killer Angel]

Was looking through this for tactics but some seems outdated (though I am very new- only 2 games in with small armies). CAN you make unit hordes of more than 40? It looks like the max for warriors and skinks in a unit are 40 according to the warscroll builder. I have 40 of each and 15 knights as my base army. I've been reading about this bloodclaw starhost and it seems smart, but I agree, I have NO idea how I'd possibly injure the beastclaw raiders for example.

It is definitely outdated, sorry: it was made before GHB2 and a plethora of FAQ.
Some things are still valid, but other are no more good (or even legal)... and hordes cannot surpass the 40 models (if you play matched games)

 

[Canas]

Was looking through this for tactics but some seems outdated (though I am very new- only 2 games in with small armies). CAN you make unit hordes of more than 40? It looks like the max for warriors and skinks in a unit are 40 according to the warscroll builder. I have 40 of each and 15 knights as my base army. I've been reading about this bloodclaw starhost and it seems smart, but I agree, I have NO idea how I'd possibly injure the beastclaw raiders for example.

In matched play, nope 40 is the max for those (though I vaguely remember a skaven unit that could have 60, but I'm not too sure). There's also fairly little reason to it. It'd just be a gigantic unwieldy block of troops that's going to get stuck on everything. A clever opponent would just get it stuck in a chokepoint for most of the game.

It is definitely outdated, sorry: it was made before GHB2 and a plethora of FAQ.
Some things are still valid, but other are no more good (or even legal)... and hordes cannot surpass the 40 models (if you play matched games)

I think the vast majorityof it is still accurae (and mostly legal), though it's missing some nuances yea..

 

[Killer Angel]

I think the vast majorityof it is still accurae (and mostly legal), though it's missing some nuances yea..

Yep, but when I talk about Oxyotl or Skink Chief, those are sadly no more available...

 

[Xasto]

In matched play, nope 40 is the max for those (though I vaguely remember a skaven unit that could have 60, but I'm not too sure). There's also fairly little reason to it. It'd just be a gigantic unwieldy block of troops that's going to get stuck on everything. A clever opponent would just get it stuck in a chokepoint for most of the game.

Aren't Grots in groups of 20? 20-40-60? Not sure though