7th Ed. Salamanders CAN march and shoot

[To-neh of LaTigra]

Here's why:

'Spout flames' is NOT a breath weapon, but it isn't a missile weapon either. Missile weapons are those listed on page 57 of the BRB, as well as similar weapons, such as blowpipes.

'Spout flames' is a special rule used in the shooting phase and thus follows all the same rules that missile weapons do in the Shooting Phase portion of the BRB. The restriction on marching and shooting is on page 15 in the Movement Phase portion of the BRB and specifies missile weapons.

This also explains why 'Shoot barbs' bothers to mention not being able to march and shoot.

 

[Craken]

I think your grabbing at straws a bit here. They can move and shoot yes it clearly states that on p.56 in the lizardmen book. But no where does it say he can march and shoot, no unit can ever march and shoot.

 

[Scarloc]

Well breath weapons can march and shoot.

 

[To-neh of LaTigra]

What about Banshees and that Warriors of Choas Shout thing? Those aren't missile weapons. Only units with missile weapons can't march and shoot. Wizards can still cast spells after marching.

The BRB does not say that special rules cannot be used after marching, only missile weapons. Otherwise, rules like, oh... Cold-blooded, would not work if a unit had to take a LD test from something after marching, of Dryads Ward sv.

Since special rules can always be used (in their respective phases of course), the BRB does allow 'Spout flames' to be used after Marching.

 

[Craken]

Yes the banshee can march and shoot but that is clearly defined in the rule book of the vampire counts, I own them as well. The salamander however only says it can move and shoot, no where does it mention that it is allowed to march and shoot, which it would if they were able to.

The BRB does not say that special rules cannot be used after marching, only missile weapons. Otherwise, rules like, oh... Cold-blooded, would not work if a unit had to take a LD test from something after marching, of Dryads Ward sv.

This statement is a tad much we are discussing shooting not other things.

However I will agree with Scarloc in saying that breath weapons are allowed to march and shoot, that is clearly defined in the rule book and I have yet to read breath weapons as I've never used anything that had them. However unfortunatly for us spout flames is not a breath weapon. kinda wish it was though.

 

[hellbreaker]

it isn't a breath weapon? it uses the breath template and well is shoot via the mouth of the salamander.

 

[Caneghem]

it isn't a breath weapon? it uses the breath template and well is shoot via the mouth of the salamander.

I think it's called the blast template.. but it doesn't shoot directly from the salamanders mouth or else you wouldn't roll the dice to add extra distance.

This is the reason breath weapons allow marching people, they don't get any extra distance you just place the template touching the model. If you limited actual breath weapons to only move and shoot, nobody would use them. This is because the breath weapon is typically an additional ability to an already powerful creature. Breath weapons are always used with the small end of the template touching the mouth of the dragon or hydra or whatever. There are some other effects that use the blast template where you roll the artillery dice, and these are not breath weapons.

 

[msinosic]

'Spout flames' is NOT a breath weapon

Where does it say this? The Rulebook doesn't mention that Spout Flames is a breath weapon so there for it isnt. Good logic. I agree.

but it isn't a missile weapon either..

It doesn't say it is or isn't actually but by the same logic above you are correct.

Missile weapons are those listed on page 57 of the BRB, as well as similar weapons, such as blowpipes.

Thats true but last I checked my BRB does not automatically update with new rules every time a new army book is released.

'Spout flames' is a special rule used in the shooting phase and thus follows all the same rules that missile weapons do in the Shooting Phase portion of the BRB. .

Why should it follow other rules for missile weapons when above you said 'it isn't a missile weapon'?

The restriction on marching and shooting is on page 15 in the Movement Phase portion of the BRB and specifies missile weapons.

Great but no where does it say its a missile weapon... or a breath weapon... or a warmachine while we are at it! ... now thats just silly.

Now to the real point here: New army books have in them, new rules, new items, new ideas that can challenge players in regards to where they fit into the already existing set. 'Spout Flames' is special new type of weapon used in the shooting phase. Follow the rules written for it in the Lizardmen army book. If it says you can do something with it there then do it otherwise assume it can not be done!

You cleary pointed out above that it isnt a Breath Weapon because it doesnt say it is! Why cant you just live with the fact that it cant Mach and Shoot because it doesnt say it can!!!

Disclaimer: Until FAQd differently

 

[To-neh of LaTigra]

If it doesn't follow the rules for weapons in the shooting phase, how else could you resolve the hit?

Ergo, it has to follow the rules given in the Shooting phase.

But since it is a special rule and not wargear (all missile weapons are wargear) than it stands to reason that it can be used regardless of movement. Afterall, marching is a type of move and 'Spout flame' begins with "may move and fire".

The reason missile weapons cannot shoot after marching is it takes time to load/aim/fire. Barfing flames does not, that is why breath weapons are allowed to march and fire.

I think it is grabbing at straws to say they cannot march & shoot as there is much more evidence to say they can that to say they can't

1) not missile weapons, thus not restricted by marching according to BRB
2) special attack done in shooting phase that gives specific instruction on how it's resolved. redondant if it was intended as a missile weapon
3) counterpart special rule 'Shoot barbs' specifies no march & shoot. why if 'spout flames' could not?
4) uses breath template, though not breath weapon, could be intended to work similarly
5) Wizards can cast spells after marching

My argument is NOT "It doesn't say I can't, therefore I can", but rather "It says some rules can't, therefore other rules must be able to normally."

 

[Nosreme]

it isn't a breath weapon? it uses the breath template and well is shoot via the mouth of the salamander.

Because it is lacking the magic phrase "Breath Weapon" in it's description. Hence, it is not a breath weapon. It does not matter where the flames come from. They could come from the sallies butts for all we know. But if it doesn't say breath weapon, then it is something else.

 

[strewart]

For most breath weapons, march and shoot doesn't matter anyway... Dragons fly, so don't have a march move.

Intuitively I would say no to it marching and shooting, but I guess if it isn't a missile and the BRB stats 'missile weapons' cannot march and shoot, it is likely that by the rules it can. I will have to look at the wording when I get home.

 

[msinosic]

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be a Breath Weapon. It doesn't seem unresonable to imagine it working that way either. Till I can say for certain that it can March and Shoot I will have to play it the other way.

Lets hope a FAQ can clear up this and many other questions we all have.

 

[diablarist]

Because it is lacking the magic phrase "Breath Weapon" in it's description. Hence, it is not a breath weapon. It does not matter where the flames come from. They could come from the sallies butts for all we know. But if it doesn't say breath weapon, then it is something else.[/quote]

i feel a conversion idear comeing on....

 

[Caneghem]

If they COULD march and shoot, you're looking at a max of about 30" or more. March 12, roll a 10 on the artillery dice, and factor in the template is about 8 inches itself. You're looking at first-turn panic checks right at the enemy deployment zone.

Doesn't really sound like the way they are intended to be played.

 

[Dalkarius]

The Salamanders are relatives to the Warpfire Throwers and Flame Cannons of the Dwarves and Skaven, not fire-breathing Hydras and Dragons. A Breath weapon is only a breath weapon if it is used from the monsters mouth period. I'm guessing Flame Cannons are a move-or-fire weapon, so they said that we can move and shoot with our Salamanders on that front, not that we can march, otherwise it would have stated such. I mean, seriously, it says that we can move and shoot....and not stand & shoot, looks to me like they made it pretty damn straightforward. So no, marching's out of the question.

 

[strewart]

Warpfire throwers cannot move and shoot either.. And I guess now I think about it, while the BRB may refer to 'missile weapons' in regards to marching and shooting, it is not specifically a special rule. You don't see bow - missile weapon. And even if there is a list of missile weapons in the rulebook, that doesn't cover many army specific weapons.

 

[skinkyone]

the answer to this question is simple,
ARE THEY A MISSILE WEAPON
the answer
NO
meaning that the shooting rules for missile weapons don't apply

why dont you just agree with your oponnant before game which way they word

 

[Caneghem]

The fact that they are not a missile weapon is inconsequential semantics. They are granted the ability to "move and shoot", which is quite clearly described in the rulebook as not allowing marching. Therefore, if it is not a breath weapon, you have literally no case.

 

[Craken]

I agree 100% Caneghem

 

[Vagrant Benthos]

I agree 100% Caneghem

As do I. I am of a mind that any other interpretation is grasping at straws for an extra advantage that is not there. Don't get me wrong, I wish it was.