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7th Ed. Salamanders CAN march and shoot

Uff, I really hope this debate can be resolved with a FAQ soon. It had been great if the sallies could march and shoot, though I am prepared for it to be otherwise.

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My Post no. 50!!!

*Evolving into a saurus*

Yeah! :D
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Yep, it looks more like a warmachine that can move and shoot than a breath weapon, it definitely isn't a breath weapon, just uses the same template. Missile weapons are attacks that happen in the shooting phase, and cannot shoot if marching. A few specific examples against include fast cavalry, who specifically say they can march and shoot, breath weapons (same) and specific cases like the banshee. Nothing else can unless it exclusively says it can.
 
strewart said:
Yep, it looks more like a warmachine that can move and shoot than a breath weapon, it definitely isn't a breath weapon, just uses the same template. Missile weapons are attacks that happen in the shooting phase, and cannot shoot if marching. A few specific examples against include fast cavalry, who specifically say they can march and shoot, breath weapons (same) and specific cases like the banshee. Nothing else can unless it exclusively says it can.
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Exactly
 
it only calls the attack something that hits like a breath weapon... they wouldn't say that if the attack was a breath weapon it'd be a waste
 
Ya know what? I am tired of finding legitimate rules and have everyone stubbornly refuse them. If GW officially FAQ's Salamanders to not march and shoot, fine, it wouldn't be the first time they've FAQed something dispite the RAW (powerfists working vs. a Necron Monolith comes to mind).

March is a move, so is a wheel, a turn, etc. Look it up! Move and fire means any move, usless prohibited because it's a missile weapon.

A special rule is not a weapon, it's an ability. Frenzy is a special rule that gives an extra attack, but so is the Sword of Battle. One is a special rule, the other is a weapon. If something negates a weapon's effect, it would not effect the special rule's and vice versa.
 
To-neh of LaTigra said:
Ya know what? I am tired of finding legitimate rules and have everyone stubbornly refuse them. If GW officially FAQ's Salamanders to not march and shoot, fine, it wouldn't be the first time they've FAQed something dispite the RAW (powerfists working vs. a Necron Monolith comes to mind).

March is a move, so is a wheel, a turn, etc. Look it up! Move and fire means any move, usless prohibited because it's a missile weapon.

A special rule is not a weapon, it's an ability. Frenzy is a special rule that gives an extra attack, but so is the Sword of Battle. One is a special rule, the other is a weapon. If something negates a weapon's effect, it would not effect the special rule's and vice versa.
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You can spin this however you want but you are wrong. Move and shoot allows you to wheel, turn and simply walk. It excludes charging, marching and fleeing. If you want to see how the wording would look if you were allowed to march and shoot, go into a local games workshop and grab the vampire book off the shelf and look at Banshee's description. This does not need to be faq'd because it is already clear, however when it does come out you will see the question:

Q: Can salamanders march/charge and shoot?
A: No
 
To-neh of LaTigra said:
Ya know what? I am tired of finding legitimate rules and have everyone stubbornly refuse them. If GW officially FAQ's Salamanders to not march and shoot, fine, it wouldn't be the first time they've FAQed something dispite the RAW (powerfists working vs. a Necron Monolith comes to mind).

March is a move, so is a wheel, a turn, etc. Look it up! Move and fire means any move, usless prohibited because it's a missile weapon.

A special rule is not a weapon, it's an ability. Frenzy is a special rule that gives an extra attack, but so is the Sword of Battle. One is a special rule, the other is a weapon. If something negates a weapon's effect, it would not effect the special rule's and vice versa.
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you know that you are raping the rules!

march is ind some sort of movement, but excludes any sort of missile or ranged attack.
move and fire ind says that you can move and shoot. but "fire"means shooting, missile attack, ranged attack, etc.

if im going to act like you i also can say that you CAN NEVER use their ranged attack becxouse it doesn't say in wich phase you can use it.
terradons drop rocks really tells us you drop the rocks at teh END of MOVEMENT phase, and therefor it is legal to use.
everything else that is not considered as "movement, combat, psychology, shooting or magic" rule or special rule, is not legal and therefore can not be used.

so from now on stop whining and never ever shoot with your sallamanders or razordons. becouse they cant!


ok back to being seriues:
page brb 28: templates:
some "creatures",spells and war machines use templates, to determine what they hit. normally after the final position of the template has been determined following the rules of the warmachine, "creature"or spell using it all models whose bases are partially etc etc.

this quote is taken from the the shooting part in the brb.
and thus it says salamanders "rule"is a shooting attack becouse it is covered in this section.

also taking razordons as a reference is shit to.
their shooting attacks tells us they need to roll to hit as normal but no penaltyy for "moving" shooting at longe range {blablabla} though they cannot shoot if they march.

the last sentence tells us we cannot shoot in clarification that we do not get a penalty for moving.

razordons shoot on a whole different way.
salamanders use a artillery dice and breath template ( nto breath weapon) to shoot. it is normal that these 2 rules mostly are considered to be a "move OR shoot"rule, and there for GW has stated they can move and shoot.

so if you wan tto be a stubborn idiot and ignore this rule clarification be my guest and have lots of pissed of warhammer friends or club members. and don't get all sad if no one wants to battle you anymore in about 2 months.

sorry if my language is inapropiate, but i just read this topic and really pissed me off.
 
@ Craken: Please give my a page number and phrase that specifies "move & fire" excludes marching. This is a game of permission and models are allowed to move (i.e. can march if they want to) and models are allowed to shoot in the shooting phase. Both allowances are completely independent of each other and only when rules specify other wise (i.e. missile weapons) are restricted from doing one after the other. Missile weapons are those listed on pg 57 and warmachines and not special rules.

@ Blackhawk: Thank you for pointed out that Salamanders fall under template rules as this adds to my argument. That gives specific evidence that 'Spout flames' is indeed used in the shooting phase and follows the rules given in that section of the book. The restriction on marching is in the MOVE phase section and only applies to missile weapons. Missile weapons and templates use different ways of firing/resolving and thus are different and marching only excludes missile weapons, not templates.

Again, look in the Lizardmen book, is 'Spout flames' under weapons or special rules? That's right special rules.

I am NOT raping the rules, I am treating them like a lady and listening to her needs :meh: .

Until GW FAQ's this otherwise, I am NOT wrong.
 
I would rather not have to close this thread due to it getting too heated. Lustria Online has always been a very friendly site and I would hate to see people falling out over a rules dispute (even though I know it happens all too frequently). So I think if you've made your case in this thread it might be best to just avoid it for now, since it's unlikely one side is going to convince the other :)
 
ok lets put it simple then:
Move = 1x your movement rate
March= twice your movement rate
movement: is the the wording where everything falls under that has to do from even slightly moving any models on the table, no matter what.
movement charistic: is what the specific model can move ( M)

move and shoot= 1x your movement rate+ shooting.

it doesn't say march and shoot. only breath attack can be used in march.

wheeling, turning, change formation and reform are "manouvres" that can be done while performing a move.

BRB page`12:
movement rate:
the normal movement rate of a model is defined by its Movement allowence (M) charistics value

during their movement phase, units can MOVE up to their movement allowance in inches. men mave a movement charistic of 5 and so may MOVE up to 4', elves , naturally faster and numbler on foot, MOVE up to 5".

Models do not have to MOVE the full distance allowed, or can stay still if you prefer, but they cannot MOVE further then their movement.
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so now it must be clear to you that: march and move is something totally different.
movement is the phase where everything is done that has to do with moving your models:
every model may move up to their movement charistic. they may never move more then that.
exception rule is marching, marching allows a unit to use double its movement charistics if their isn't a enemy unit within 8".


so there for the wording "move and fire" means you may use up to your maximum movement charistics and shoot. if your moveing your salamanders 6,5" you are not on the move, but marching. and the rule doesn't say march and shoot.

marching is actually a exception rule on the whole movement rate rule.
 
I hate to dig up old threads, especially when they have been done to death, but I just discovered something new that hasn't been mentioned yet and basically leaves no question at all. In the second BRB FAQ on the GW website it does define missile weapons on the 8th page. Not directly related to this, but still defines missile weapons:

Q. Many army books have magic items that
provide protection against ‘Missiles’. However the
Main Rulebook does not provide a comprehensive
definition of what ‘Missiles’ are. Can you please
provide us with guidance on what ‘Missiles’ are in
regards to Magic Items?

A. We assume that the word ‘missiles’ includes all
attacks executed in the Shooting phase as well as
spells that are labelled as ‘magic missiles’.
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So since the salamanders are an attack executed in the shooting phase, they indeed are a missile weapon so are covered by the rule that missile weapons cannot march and shoot.

As an interesting aside, that means by the definition that terradons drop rocks are not missile weapons... Hmmm.
 
I thought you dropped rocks in the shooting phase, is it movement?

Interesting thou, never thought of burning acid as a missile... but rules are rules.
 
No rocks are dropped in the remaining moves phase...

The reason I mentioned it, and I did want to check before suggesting this, was that since drop rocks aren't missile weapons, you cannot automatically assume the attacks are distributed like shooting, and I checked and it doesn't say they are. I wonder how you distribute attacks... If they aren't like shooting, then do you get to choose such as the case of hitting a warmachine? Just get the crew not the machine, or targetting a character on a monstrous mount? I guess that is a bit off topic though.
 
Well, id prefer to just randomize the drop rocks thing, as far as im concerned, if somethings good enough, its good enough :) Plus its more of a game that way.

Glad to see your previous post here btw, its allways good to have your finger on exactly why something is as it is, and that answer from gw will be a good one to keep in mind for future books with similar "problems".
 
As an interesting aside, that means by the definition that terradons drop rocks are not missile weapons... Hmmm.
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Technically, it says that any attack made in the shooting phase is a missile, but the reverse isn't inherently true. It doesn't say things done in other phases are NOT missiles, in other words. Although in this case, the terradon special attack would make sense to be a missile attack, but since when did this game engine run on common sense? :)
 
Nosreme said:
As an interesting aside, that means by the definition that terradons drop rocks are not missile weapons... Hmmm.
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Technically, it says that any attack made in the shooting phase is a missile, but the reverse isn't inherently true. It doesn't say things done in other phases are NOT missiles, in other words. Although in this case, the terradon special attack would make sense to be a missile attack, but since when did this game engine run on common sense? :)
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The GW response clearly just forgot about the couple units that actually have attacks during the movement phase. But hits tend to fall into two basic categories, melee hits (which can be targetted) and everything else. Everything else includes both "shooting hits" and things which are merely "distributed as shooting hits". It is very rare though for something to be allowed to be targetted that is not hand to hand, and such cases are clearly specified in the attack's rules. So probably a no-go on targetting crew, though it would be insanely useful and able to character snipe. So yeah, not a prayer there.

Common sense wise a boulder being hurled at you is a projectile (missile) so I would say that if this question is ever FAQ'd, then it would be decided to be a missile attack and can be defended against with things that would normally protect you from missiles... with the exception that they still auto-hit so skirmish and to-hit penalties are still ignored.
 
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