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8th Ed. Rank your favourite non-LM armies :3

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Cragglehatch

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Since there were quite a few threads on second armies, I thought it'd be fun to see where everyone ranked the other armies in terms of sheer coolness. :3 It's just whatever other army you like the most, for whatever reason/s.

My personal list goes like this (from best to worst):

#1 Orcs & Goblins
(Orcs are so loveable that I'd say I love them and lizzies equally)

#2 Tomb Kings
(I just enjoy the ancient Egyptian vibe :3. )

#3 Dwarfs
(they get some seriously badass fluff, and I've always enjoyed the 'blunt' comtrast to elves)

#4 Wood Elves
(they are hippies, butt hey also get frickin' tree people!)

#5 Dark Elves
(their new models are pretty; and I guess that part of me enjoys the dark, fast, and elegant archetype)

#6 Warriors of Chaos
(I like close combat)

#7 Bretonnia
(lots of uniqueness for individual knights, Arthurian legend with a French twist)

#8 Skaven
(hordes of soldiers and crazy contraptions! They'd be higher if I didn't think rats look ugly :P)

#9 Daemons of Chaos
(they get fun-sounding, random rules)

#10 The Empire
(feels closest to an actual wargame army as they possibly have the most number of real-life analogues)

#11 High Elves
(not a huuuuge fan, but better than the bottom three :P)

#12 Vampire Counts
(painting undead - assuming they aren't cool-looking Egyptian ones - doesn't excite me :P )

#14 Ogre Kingdoms
(monstrous infantry as core just feels wrong)

#15 Beastmen
(I just think they're ugly :P )
 
1. Dwarves - I'm an engineer, blackpowder wooo!
2. Dogs of War - they used to be an army...
3. Orcs and Goblins - so many options, so much insanity
4. WoC - Chaos warriors look badass
5. Brettonians - gotta love knights
6. Empire - dont really like the models but I have plans..
7. Ogre Kingdoms - look ard, play ard, not much to paint
8. Vampire Counts - at least the vamps have style
9. Dark Elves - black is stylish
10. DoC - conversion possibilities
11. Beastmen - oh look ma, a deer AAAAAH IT ATE MY HAND!
12. Skaven - only ranked this low because I would hate to paint all those models, and my friend usdd to play with an insanely good skaven list
13. Tomb kings - not one for bling, and bling is all they have
14. Wood Elves - they could be SO MUCH COOLER, maybe if they get an update and new models...
15. High Elves - screw these poncy buggers
 
Nice list, hilburn; interesting how differently we ranked some of the armies. :P

Also, I looted your idea of explaining your ranking; i wish I'd thought of that the first time! :P
 
My list is based on atmosphere, not play-style or competitiveness.

1: The Empire: Awesome models, european feel, religious fanatics.
2: Beastmen: Hooves. Shamans. Generally a cool savage buch of dudes.
3: Ogre Kingdoms: Great looking range of models!
4: Skaven: Skitterish, gritty and volatile.
5: Tomb Kings: Another awesome themed army, fuck yeah Egypt and shit.
6: Brettonia: Love that they are so different from The Empire, great looking knights in different colours. Needs a revamp though.
7: Orcs and Goblins: Cool variety army with a bit of everything.
8: Chaos Dwarves: Awesome concept, I hope they get a re-release!
9: Warriors of Chaos: Vikings!
10: Wood elves: Lovely forest people.
11: Dark Elves: Evil, pretty cool.
12: High-elves: A little too generic for my taste.
13: Dwarves: Pff… Fine i guess, but no magic is a bore.
14: Vampire Counts: Masses of zombies are awesome, the rest is so-so.
15: Demons of Chaos: I cannot relate at all to those buggers.
 
I like my Fantasy to be fantastic. The less real-worldly the better! Undead, however, are overdone IMO and do not appeal to me at all. Especially zombies.

1: High Elves: DRAGONS! Need I say more? Ok, ok, PHOENIX too! And lets not forget the Griffons and Great Eagles.
2: Dark Elves: More DRAGONS and Hydras!
3: Wood Elves: Yet another DRAGON! (yes, I'm an unabashed dragon fanatic. I mean, what is not to like about a winged, fire breathing dinosaur?)
4: Orcs and Goblins: Animosity may be a tactical thorn for a general, but you'v got to love the attitude. Oh yeah, Wyverns, while not dragons, are still flying dinosaurs, of a sort.
5: Skaven: R.O.U.S.es do exist!
6: Ogres: Shrek could show them all a thing or two, but their theme is appealing to me.
7: Demons of Chaos: It doesn't get less real-worldly than ravening hordes of demons.
8: Dwarfs/Chaos Dwarfs): it's not fantasy without the stunties, no matter thier alignment.
9: Warriors of Chaos: inspite of their very human aspects, they do have some fantastic monsters and demons.
10: Beastment: wild animals gone sentient? Sweet!
11: Tomb Kings: There is just something about the Ancient Egypt theme, despite the un-dead flavor that makes them work.
12: Empire: the have Griffons. That's about it.
13: Brettonia: Pegasi or bust. Not much else there.
14: Vampire Counts: zombies... just zombies. Yes they have a dragon, but it is a zombie dragon. Vampires and zombies (undead in general) feel so overdone lately that I can't imagine putting them anywhere else on my list, despite their utter lack of real-worldliness.

EDIT: I'm not sure how, but I forgot to add Ogres.
 
I couldn't list them all as I don't really have preferrence for Armies I don't play, but I could definitely tell you armies I love/hate to play against. These are the armies I love in warhammer for various reasons.

My top 5 not including Lizard Men:

1. Bretonnia (My first army; I love knights.)
2. Dwarves (Really love the fluff especially slayers, but I never field any. Gotrek anyone?)
3. High Elves (I just love white lion chariots and the dragons and phoenixes; by far the prettiest models.)
4. Skaven (These guys are my mordheim gang, but I started a small army with Island of Blood.)
5. Orcs. (These guys are my bloodbowl team currently 54-9-2; they just smash)
 
My list


1. High Elves-Doomed but Noble warriors. Also Dragons.
2. Skaven- The ADHD race if there ever was one.
3. Ogres- Walking stomachs and crushing output hell yeah
4. Wood Elves- I love Elves and thee guys look really cool but there gameplay style and mine don't work together
5. Dark Elves- Emo meets Metal- Out come lots of blood
6. Dwarves- Never give up Never Forget, Pass the Ale.
7. Warriors of Chaos- Walking Tanks Got love em.
8. Empire- Ehh not my style but they look pretty good and have good fluff.
9. Brettonia-Knights and more knights and peasant covered in manure. Yeah
10. Vampire Counts- much coolness but the core just turns me off.
11. Tomb kings -good looking models but i'm not an undead guy.
12. Demons- Boring
13. Orcs and Goblins- Not abd but they don't appeal to me.
14. Beastmen Why do these even exist. JUST stupid boring and not at all thought out.
15. Chaos Dwarves- Either give them the hats back or let them go.
 
Personally none can beat the Lizzie's, but here is my list

1 Orcs and Goblins
Because they are crazy and have the second beast thing to giant dinosaur, giant spiders
2 Vampire Counts/ Tomb Kings
I can't decide which I like more
3 High Elves
They have freakin dragons...AND Phonixes
4 Dark Elves
They have some great looking Sorceress models and they also have dinosaury things
5 Skaven
Despite my Sotek following Skinks hating the hell out of them, they have some nice models
6 Wood Elves
The hippies also have nix models
The rest in no particular order, until we get to the bottom
14 Daemons of Chaos/nWarriors of Chaos/Beastmen
They were not in the Old Ones plan, but they have good models
15 Ogres and Halflings
Because when my father beats me with them he says " You're jealous of my ogres fatness" which is totally untrue
 
This looks fun! My rating is entirely on 'feel'.

1: Orcs and Gobbos - Greenskins are my main 40k army and were my first WHFB army. I love the dark humour and savagery of them, and I feel they have an underdog mentality compared with the other races. To me they are on par with the lizzies.
2: Skaven - again with the dark humour. Very silly but to me the self defeating army is one of those things that makes Warhammer Warhammer.
3: Chaos Warriors - Cool models with lots of conversion possibilities, and close combat is fun. In my mind chaos is one of the other things that makes Warhammer Warhammer.
4: Chaos Daemons - See above about Chaos.
5: Beastmen - Also see above about Chaos.
6: Dogs of War - I remember this army! So many cool characters!
7: Empire - Guns are cool, as are hats with feathers and fake germanic names. This jumps up the list if it is a halfling themed army. Halflings are cool.
8: Ogres - Some very cool models, doesn't have the 'history' of the other armies though.
9: Dwarfs - Little angry drunk gits. Kind of cool but gunlines are pretty dull.
10: Chaos Dwarfs - Not really keen on these guys, apart from their hats, obviously.
11: Vampire Counts - The vampires are kind of cool, but in recent years zombies have been done to death. (Chortle)
12: Tomb Kings - I think I'd get bored of painting bone. I was going to put the undead a little higher on the list, then I remembered the Nagash model.
13: Bretonia - This rockets up to 1 if it's a Monty Python themed army. Otherwise meh.
14: Dark Elves - Elves smell funny.
15: Wood Elves - These elves smell funny and don't wash.
16: High Elves - These elves smell funny and are all high and mighty about it!
 
Centurion said:
14: Dark Elves - Elves smell funny.
15: Wood Elves - These elves smell funny and don't wash.
16: High Elves - These elves smell funny and are all high and mighty about it!
Click to expand...

LOL :D
 
I don't have a full list, nor are these ranked, but...

From a fluff / humour / just interesting perspective:

Any race that takes itself seriously: Elves, dwarves, Bretonnia, Lizardnmen, Tomb Kings. They are ripe for mockery.

Any Race that seems to be out to destroy itself: Skaven, O+G. Give them an inch and they will destroy themselves.

Any race with motives not entirely aligned with Order OR Chaos: Ogres, TK, O+G. By blind stupid luck, they can strike decisive blows for order. Ripe for manipulation.

Any Race looking for a simple solution in a complex world: Beastmen, Lizardmen, Wood Elves.

Any race that I don't know the history of: Chaos Dwarves. I can just make it up

Any Race who seek dominion over all. DoC, WoC. Someone has to miss out.



The above reflects my views, but these are really irrelevant. The Old Ones will return in 9th edition and order will be restored. Warhammer will be renamed Peacehammer, and everyone will live in harmony and niceness.
 
spawning of Bob said:
I don't have a full list, nor are these ranked, but...

From a fluff / humour / just interesting perspective:

Any race that takes itself seriously: Elves, dwarves, Bretonnia, Lizardnmen, Tomb Kings. They are ripe for mockery.

Any Race that seems to be out to destroy itself: Skaven, O+G. Give them an inch and they will destroy themselves.

Any race with motives not entirely aligned with Order OR Chaos: Ogres, TK, O+G. By blind stupid luck, they can strike decisive blows for order. Ripe for manipulation.

Any Race looking for a simple solution in a complex world: Beastmen, Lizardmen, Wood Elves.

Any race that I don't know the history of: Chaos Dwarves. I can just make it up

Any Race who seek dominion over all. DoC, WoC. Someone has to miss out.



The above reflects my views, but these are really irrelevant. The Old Ones will return in 9th edition and order will be restored. Warhammer will be renamed Peacehammer, and everyone will live in harmony and niceness.
Click to expand...

LOL! :D
 
1-Dogs of War – I am much saddened that GW nixed these guys. I don’t want to paint a whole army of Ogres, O&G, Dwarfs, etc, but the ability to mix and match races was wonderful. Now I can’t justify the time to paint models outside of the armies I collect.

2-Vampire Counts – What started as a mild project to back up my fluff piece turned into what will eventually be a full army. There are TONS of possible conversions.

3-Empire – I started collecting these guys, so I could use my DOW collection, but they’ve grown on me as their own army. They got a nice jack of all trades feel and I like variety above all else.

4-Daemons of Chaos – A bit of pleasing randomness and lots of color options. In theory this could double as a 40K army though I hear bad things about Daemons in 40K. The newest Daemon models are freaking ugly (in a bad way, not like Nurgle daemons which are ugly in a good way).

5-Chaos Dwarfs – I like that they are the only Force of Destruction that act like they are led by grownups. They go out of their way not to overextend themselves. If I could afford the models I would go for this: Artillery AND Monsters AND elite infantry AND chaff infantry.

6-Wood Elves – If I played Elves, I would play these guys. I like the green look (hey I’m a LM player) and I like the variety of interesting abilities they have. I like that they can play a good game with non-artillery shooting.

7-Dark Elves/High Elves (tie) – I like the overall aesthetic and I like the idea of playing an Elf army of glass cannons. They are a little too mirror-like for my tastes. They don’t actually need to be separate armies. About 80% of their fluff is about their civil war, even the War of the Beard is an offshoot. If they both died out simultaneously, few in the WH world would notice or care. Also, why does Malekith use the same invasion route EVERY time!?! You guys are masterful sailors. Sail around the five impregnable gates!

9-Orcs and Goblins – The sheer variety of units they have their disposal is enticing. The randomness is fun. The painting is dull. All very slight variations of the same type of green. Generally I try to convince my O&G collecting friends to do army swaps with my LM so I can play O&G without collecting them.

10-Warriors of Chaos – I’m not into this level of dark personally, but I see the appeal. Though the fact the frozen lands that barren can support massive armies (massive armies that are still massive AFTER fighting amongst themselves) breaks my ability to suspend disbelief. The Empire army should realistically outnumber them about 300 to 1. Their stat lines are so good I don’t see the tactics. Game 1, run forward and beat face. Game 2, run forward and beat face.

11-Tomb Kings – I like Ancient Egypt a lot, but these guys would get boring quickly with few different competitive builds and lots of bone painting. They are probably the bottom tier army competitive wise. I would still love to paint a Brenden Frasier model and put him running away from a TK army.

12-Dwarfs – Play style is a bit one dimensional and I don’t want to paint that many hairy short dudes. If I want
artillery I’ll play Empire and go with a combined arms approach.

13-Brettonians – Maybe if they got a new book, they woudl be better, but I doubt it. Their fluff is a bit boring and you can field a better all cavalry army with Empire and Empire doesn’t HAVE to go the cavalry route. As of right now I don’t see why they couldn’t be done with an Empire book. A human is a human, GW just needed a second human army to justify their fluff that humans are the dominant race.

14-Ogre Kingdom – Monstrous Infantry would fun to play en masse but I don’t want to paint this many sweaty fat guys. Their fluff is dull. We get it GW! They like to eat and aren’t that smart.

15-Beastmen – I don’t want to paint this many furry guys. They are just like WoC, only without interesting fluff, varying model looks, multiple lore options, and armor.

16-Skaven – I don’t want to paint twice as many furry guys as a Beastmen army takes.
 
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16. Warriors of Chaos

I don't like Warriors of Chaos.
 
My introduction was with OnG, so they are my fav, even if I've had them 10 years and they are mostly still in pieces and unpainted. Lizardmen are wonderful in their models and colors, and I chose them as my re-introduction to fantasy, coming from 40k Tyranids. So after all that I go with the following order:

2. Tomb Kings - more great models, nice fluff, undead royalty fun

3. WoC - badazz vikings, my old mate had these and the next one on my list, so soft spot for...

4. Deamons. Oh the crazy funk! And the new randomness, while annoying and I think actually detrimental to any type of game with them, is fun.

5. Wood Elves - I love the outdoors, what can I say. My favorite stand-alone fluff army outside Lizards.

6. Dark Elves - I also love the combined fluff of these two elves (^). All dark and broody, and wicked looking. Strong magic, great models.

Here on out I have either limited exposure to, or just gloss over when I read about them as none of the following particularly interest me much. I'll list them in as much as an order I as care to, but they all sort of fall into "meh" for me.

7. Bretonia - looks cool. The Green Knight was my first conversion (to chaos).

8. Skaven - don't care for them much, but have some neat models.

9. Beastmen - decent chaps I suppose.

10. Empire - my room mate had these. They are the "standard", and that bores me.

11. High Elves - seriously, all the worst things about elves. Boring color schemes, models don't stand out at all, history and fluff is yawn, magic is a combination of all of that. Gives WE and DE a bad rep for being elves.

Did I miss anyone? Dogs of War were always cool, but I never considered them an "actual" army. I'd say they would be 3.5. Had fun and cool units, man they could go with anyone and had great stories for all of them.

Oh yeah, Ogre Kingdoms and Vampire Counts. Umm... tied for 7.5? OK never made an impression on me historically. Sure they are being pushed as the new army on the block, but they all seem, well dull. VC are the classic bad guys I guess. Some super cool models, but their fluff leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
 
Favourite is Lizards of course.

2. Beastmen - My original first choice as an army, mainly for the minotaurs. When my dad was getting my brothers and I a battalion to play with, it was between this and the Lizards. I slightly leaned towards Beastmen, but come Christmas time, I had a Lizardmen Battalion and a Skink Chief. I've grown to love Lizards much more than Beasts.

3. Tomb Kings - I love Egypt, and my Lizardmen army theme is based around being the teachers of the ancient Khemrians. I have a bunch of these guys I use with End Times Magic now.

4. Bretonnia - Classic Medieval European Knights are a favourite of mine. I wish I had enough money to start an army of these guys.

5. Wood Elves - Druidic elves and nature spirits, they remind me of my first D&D character.

6. Skaven - Great models, and nothing beats seeing a table-wide horde of slaves skittering towards your army of Monsters.

7. Empire - More Medieval European Troops, sadly, with less shiny armour and more guns. Not my cup of tea for a Fantasy setting, but hey, a Knight is a Knight.

8. Orcs and Goblins - Mongol Horde (or maybe Huns) with Comic Relief.

9. Warriors of Chaos - Vikings are cool, but not as cool when they are wearing full plate. I like the Marauders.

10. Ogre Kingdoms - Another Mongol-type army, but without the necessary numbers to look like a Mongol Horde. They were better as Mercs.

11. Vampire Counts - I like Wights, but not Vampires or Necromancers. If they had been just Gothic Skeletons, it would have been cool, but the hordes of Zombies and Ghouls makes it seem like some kinda Warcraft thing.

12. Dwarfs - I don't like Guns, but Dwarfs are necessary for any fantasy setting. I wish they would've been more "Russian"-esque.

13. Daemons of Chaos - The models are too grotesque, and Daemons are supposed to be large, powerful, and few in my opinion.

14. Dark Elves - Because anything is better than a High Elf.

15. High Elves - They always have to be "the best". "The best" Wizards, "the best" Fighters, "the best" archers, etc. etc. They are too perfect.
 
2- chaos dwarfs, my second army: they're dwarves, and they're bad. But not the classic stupid and straight bad guys: they are pretty smart, in fact they're able to build deadly warmachines and they can create new races, and they're alchemists, scientists, mages, daemon summoners and so on. And religious fanatics too, which is always nice and gives you lots of good ideas for backgrounds.

3- empire: my first love, the army that made me starting warhammer. But then i discovered LM, and then CDs

4- ogres: huge and fat guys hitting hard: just epic. Add some cool monsters and a cannon to the mix and you'll understand why i've considered several times about starting this army

5- wood elves: a bit hippie, but i love their playstyle and the setting of the army, sadly i don't like their new OPness and the fact they're elves. I've never liked elves too much in any of the fantasy settings i've found

6- bretonnia: middle age is cool, if this army just had a bit more fantasy or steampunk or something... special?... i'd like it more. Still a wonderful army, just not my style

7- dark elves: i like their background and many of their models, but they don't make me desire to build an army. Not too seriously at least :D

8- beastmen: i like these guys, but i see them just as friends. Read n°7

9- dwarfs: unlike they're evil cousins i think they're quite boring and i don't like their models

10- WoC: some good models, i'm neutral regarding the fluff, some bad models, too good on the battlefield to love them

11- skavens: horrible fluff IMO, models are good but i still don't like them. And they're mice, come on, but i recognize they're funny

12- OnG: stupid fluff, which is worse than bad fluff to me. I find greenskins are both funny and annoying, but they annoy me too much to make me consider the funny side. I don't like models aswell

13- daemons: i like khorne miniatures, and nothing else about this army

14- tomb kings: i don't like undead at all, but at least they have some egyptian fluff which is nice

15: vampire counts: i like vampires and ghosts, but zombies, skeletons and ghouls are not my type, and since you must have them in your army list, well, i cannot like them

16 high elves: just hate them modelwise, fluffwise and gamingwise
 
so here is my list.

first the ones i would want to play one day:

2. skaven. cause cute. and warpstone. a lot of warpstone. the models look great in my oppinion, especially all the warpstone- mechanic- warmachine stuff. they just kinda ring my (doom)bell :3 will be my second army.
"squeek!"

3. Darkelves. defenitely need to read their fluff... but for now i just kinda like the look of them. the feel like they're something better and dont shy away from telleing everyone about it. oh and kinky. thats nice too :P
"meh" *looks down on everything*

4. orcs and gobbos. i like the randomness, the fluff is amazingly fun to read. some of it made me have teas in my eyes from laughing. oh and spiders. aaand the magic. luv it ^_^ skarsnik <3
"you there, small one. bring me food. dont bother, ill eat you."

5. vampire counts. some beautivull models. necromancy. like the fluff. and i like drinking bloody marys :D
"you hav too choices. lay down your veapons and open the gates. serve me. or: let go ov your veapons because you die. let me open the gates. then serve me as vresh corpses for my army. in the end you serve."

6. DoC. a)nurgle b)tzeench c)slaanesh. was there another one?
"some incomprehensible muttering" *sexy fireball of black death errupts*

and now the rest:

7. the dawi. ill end up in the book of grudges for not rating them higher. love the warmachines. love the runesystem. oh and you always have an axcuse to drink beer while playing :P axcuse. haha.
"i brought shame about my clan. i will run around and kill big stuff. and if that doesnt kill me, i need bigger stuff. cheers!"

8. Tomb kings. they got the one female model i really like. oh and i think they might be easy to paint. some screeming skull. some wash. done! i hate skelli horses though. they look "meh" :D but if you look away from the regular skelly stuff you get to lazerbeaming, giant snakes, that come out of nowhere. and guys who ride snakes. and sphinxes... i kinda like that.
"..."

9. WoC some cool armor shit. and viking shit. and weapons shit. ans yes, i know. FUCK!
*lets fuck up shit a little. jk, lets fuck up shit big time." *rude gesture*

10. ogres. some nice models. some big guns. some nice monsters. not much to paint and buy to have an army. why dont i consider to play them? dunno...
"gimme moar gold than the other guy and i might not betray you."

11.beastmen. i liked them in bloodbowl for the mutations. i liked them in the p&p for the availability to throw them at the players.
*baaaaa. mooo. whatever. i dont care."

12. wood elves. tell nobody. i actually considerd playing them :O
"meh" *hugs tree* *tree feels offended*

in no particular order:

13. empire. so... the got a tank and some wizzards as i understand. still humans. *shrugs* liked the sigmar books though. and i like the religious fanatic side. hm.
"im a perfect little human worm-baby. just look at my neck!"

14. bretonia. yeah, i get the knights stuff. its just not mine. they are human. without the tank :(
"grailgrail. grail? grail, grailgrail grail!"

15. highelves. pfff. they think they save the world? the lizzies are doing the heavy lifting. highelves... *grumbles*
"mimimimimimimimi."



now after reading through my list... i seem to lean a bit on the bad side despite of the lovely lizzies... well... must be the years as a gamemaster xD
 
1. Daemons of Chaos: they tickle my fancy - I do like Lovecraftian undertones.
2. Wood Elves: I also like Germanic-Pagan undertones.
3. Vampire Counts - ...and Gothic ones also. Yes, pretty things are important to me :pigeon:
4. Dark Elves - not *as* Gothic, so I suppose emo? They do emo well, however.
5. Tomb Kings - I feel like they are thematic cousins of the Lizards, with their whole 'ancient culture' undertone and what-not.
6. Skaven - Steampunk undertones are a yes.
7. Ogre Kingdoms - I empathise with their need to eat; I appreciate gluttonous undertones.
8. Bretonnians could have been done so much better, but I appreciate their existence.

Everything else: not enough undertones.



undertones.
 
1. Warriors of Chaos - My primary army; epic models, great rules, HELLCANNONS!
2. Dark Elves - Awesome looking evil elves
3. Tomb Kings - I love their Egyptian theme
4. Dwarfs - Awesome fluff, love the runic item system
5. Wood Elves - My wife's beloved army
6. Orcs and Goblins - fun rules and a huge range of cool models
7. Skaven - schemes, backstabbing, treachery... what's not to love
8. Vampire Counts - some great models, interesting play style
9. Ogres - the new models are pretty awesome
10. Daemons of Chaos - used to really love them, but I'm not really impressed with their new stuff
11. Beastmen - my least favourite of the three chaos factions
12. High Elves - nowhere near as cool as their dark and wood counterparts, IMHO
13. Empire - I have no interest in playing "regular" humans
14. Bretonnia - see above, but with less options
 
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