8th Ed. Proposed 8.1 Fixes

[Scalenex]

The goal is to take 8th edition mostly intact, only make it more balanced. This is a "living document", feel free to make suggestions or criticisms.

If something is too powerful or too weak I'd rather tweak the points cost then change rules left and right. It's important to give every army some candy. No army should only have things go up in price.

Presumably if we get a general consensus on Lustria-Online we could send it to our sister websites and hear them pick it apart--I mean negotiate particulars.

It's a lot easier to make a draft when I know the army well and it has an 8th edition handbook, like Dwarves, Empire, and Vampire Counts. I can get around to making a High Elf or Warrior of Chaos list, but I don't feel comfortable drafting any other, maybe Orcs and Goblins.



Everyone

Ward saves apply against all magic spells and against miscast damage. This includes Magic Resistance.

Line template attacks that strike a character riding a monster are randomized between the rider and monster (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider).

If a circular template differentiates between the center hole and the base template and a character riding a monster is hit by the center hole, the extra strength hit is randomized between the rider and monster (1-4 monster, 5-6 rider). The the character or rider still takes the regular template hit if they avoid the center hit.

Taking a non-magical ranged weapon upgrade does not preclude any character from taking a non-magical hand weapon upgrade even if it says “one of the following”.

Lizardmen

Predatory Fighter applies to supporting attacks.

Magic Items
Reduce cost of Horn of Kygor by 15 points.
Reduce the cost of the Jaguar Standard by 15 points
Make it clear that the Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza and Piranha Blade stack
Reclassify the Plaque of Dominion as an Enchanted Item and reduce cost by 5 points

Slann Mage Priests

Add
Focused Ferocity: Predatory Fighter units joined by a Slann may always test to restrain pursuit as if the Slann were a Skink character. This does not apply to other units within six inches of the Slann. If a Slann gains Fear or Terror, the Slann’s unit is considered to possess Fear or Terror. (Slann special characters get this too.)

Note this will make Harrowing Scrutiny reasonable

Raise cost of Becalming Cognition by 5 points
Reduce Cost of Transcendent Healing by 5 points
Reduce cost of Higher State of Consciousness by 5 points

Saurus Oldblood
Reduce cost of spear to 3 points.
Reduce base cost of Carnosaur by 15 points
Raise cost of Cold One by 10 points

Saurus Scar Veteran
Reduce cost of spear by 2 point
Reduce cost of Carnosaur by 15 points
Raise cost of Cold One by 10 points

Skink Chief
Add
Beast Kinship: A Skink Chief mounted on a Terradon may join a unit of Terradon riders. A Skink Chief mounted on a Ripperdactyl may join a unit of Ripperdactyl riders. Skink Chiefs on flying mounts may not join any other unit.

Skink Priest
Unchanged

Saurus Warriors
Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model
Add “one unit of Saurus Warriors per army may take a magic standard worth up to 25 points).

Skink Cohort
Reduce base cost of Kroxigor by 5 points.
Raise the minimum ratio of Skinks to Kroxigor to 10 to 1. (army list building only obviously, Skroxigor don't have to disband if the Skinks die disproportionately fast.)

Skink Skirmishers
Reduce the base cost by one point per model
Raise the cost of the Javelins and Shield upgrade from free to 1 point per model

Temple Guard
Unchanged

Jungle Swarms
Reduce cost by 5 points per model

Chameleon Skinks
Reduce cost by 1 point per model

Cold One Riders
Reduce base cost by 1 point per model
Reduce costs of Spear upgrade by 2 points per model
May take a magic banner worth up to 50 points

Kroxigor
Reduce base cost by 5 points

Terradon Riders
Make optional swap to Fireleech bolas free

Stegadon
Unchanged

Bastiladon
reduce base cost by 15 points
Solar Engine costs 15 points. Ark of Sotek remains free

Ripperdactyl
Raise Ripperdactyl’s base Ld stat by one point

Ancient Stegadon
Reduce cost of Engine of the Gods upgrade by 10 points

Salamander Hunting Pack
Unchanged

Razordon Hunting Pack
Add 3 points to the base cost
Ranged attack gains armor piercing

Troglodon
Reduce cost by 40 points

Mazdamundi
Raise Leadership score to 10

Add to rules
Greatest living caster: Mazdamundi is treated as a 5th level caster


Lord Kroak
Add 10 points to the base cost

Kroq-Gar
Reduce base cost by 30 points

Chakax
Reduce base cost by 25 points

Gor-rok
Unchanged

Tetto’eko
Raise Ld by one point
Raise base cost by 30 points

Tik’tak’to
Reduce base cost by 15 points
Change name to something less stupid. Teploq means death from the skies and sounds close enough to the original name

Oxyotl
Add Hates Daemons
Reduce base cost by 10 points (so he costs the same as 10 Chameleon Skinks)

Empire

Reduce cost of Griffon Banner by 10 points
Reduce cost of Mace of Helsturm by 5 points
Reduce cost of the White Cloak of Ulric by 5 points
Reduce cost of Ring of Volans by 5 points

General of the Empire
Reduce cost by 5 points

Grand Master, Battle Wizard Lord, Arch Lector
Unchanged

Master Engineer
Half the cost of all weapon upgrades (since they can’t be used while aiding a warmachine).
Reduce cost of mechanical horse by 5 points

Captain, Battle Wizard, Warrior Priest, Witch Hunter
Unchanged

Halbrediers
Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model

Spearmen
Shield upgrades reduced to 0.5 points per model

Swordsmen
Cost reduced by 0.5 per model

Crosswbowmen
Cost reduced by 1 point per model

Hangunners
Cost reduced by 1 point per model

Archers
Unchanged

Free Company Militia
Cost reduced by 0.5 per model

Knightly Orders
Unchanged

Great Swords
Unchanged

Demigryph Knights
Increase cost by 7 points per model

Reiksguard Knights
Unchanged

Huntsmen
Reduce cost by 0.5 points per model

Pistoliers
Reduce cost by 2 point per model

Outriders
Reduce cost by 1 point per model

Great Cannon
Raise cost by 30 points per model

Mortar
Reduce base cost by 5 points per model

Flagellants
Reduce cost by 1 point per model

Hellblaster Volley Gun
Unchanged

Helstrom Rocket Battery
Reduce cost by 15 points

Steam Tank
Raise cost by 25 points

Celestial Hurricanum
Unchanged

Luminark
Reduce cost by 5 points

Karl Franz, the Emperor
Give the guy a shield. Ghal Maraz and the Reikland Runefang are both one handed weapons, and the emperor isn’t a moron.
Reduce base cost by 10 points

Kurt Helborg
Give the guy a shield. The Solland Rundfang is a one handed weapon, and the Empire’s greatest general isn’t a moron.
Reduce base cost by 10 points

Balthasar Gelt
Unchanged

Volkmar the Grim
Reduce base cost by 10 points.

Marius Leitdorf
Reduce base cost by 5 points

Ludwig Schwarzhelm
Give the guy a shield. The Sword of Justice is a one handed weapon, and the Emperor’s champion isn’t a moron.
Reduce base cost by 5 points

Luther Huss, Prophet of Sigmar
Unchanged

Markus Wulfhart, Huntsmarshal of the Empire
Reduce base cost by 25 points--no 30 points, so someone might consider taking him


Vampire Counts

Vampiric Powers

Reduce cost of Master of the Black Arts by 10 points
Reduce cost of Curse of the Revenant by 5 points
Reduce cost of Flying Horror by 10 points
Reduce cost of Dark Acolyte by 5 points
Reduce cost of Supernatural Terror by 5 points
Reduce Cost of Master Strike by 10 points

Vampire Lord
Raise base cost by 10 points per model
Reduce cost Additional Hand Weapon by 1 point
Reduce cost of Great Weapon by 2 points
Reduce cost of Lance by 2 points
Reduce cost of Zombie Dragon by 20 points
Reduce cost of Abyssal Terror by 10 points

Master Necromancer
Reduce Cost of Master of the Dead by 5 points, still limited to one per army
Reduce cost of Abyssal Terror by 10 points

Strigoi Ghoul King
Unchanged

Necromancer
Reduce Cost of Master of the Dead by 5 points, still limited to one per army

Vampire
Reduce cost Additional Hand Weapon by 1 point
Reduce cost of Great Weapon by 2 points
Reduce cost of Lance by 2 points

Wight King, Cairn Wraith, Tomb Banshee
Unchanged

Zombies
Unchanged

Skeletons
Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model

Ghouls
Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model
Add a standard bearer option for 10 points (no magic options)

Dire Wolves
Unchanged

Zombies
Unchanged (did I already list them? Oh no the zombies are spreading THE END IS NEAR!)

Corpse Cart
Reduce cost by 5 points per model. This carries over to characters taking Corpse Carts as a mount option

Grave Guard
Reduce base cost by 1 point per model
Raise cost of upgrading to great weapons by 1 point per model
Goal is to make people stop looking at sword and board as the crappy option

Crypt Horrors
Raise cost by 2 points per model

Fell Bats
Reduce cost by 1 point per model

Bat Swarms
Reduce cost by 10 points swarm base

Spirit Host
Raise cost by 5 points per swarm base

Black Knights, Hex Wraiths Vargheists
Unchanged

Varghulf
Reduce points cost by 5 points

Blood Knights
Reduce cost of base unit by 5 points per model
Reduce cost of the Flag of Blood Keep by 15 points

Cairn Wraith
Reduce cost of base unit by 5 points per model

Black Coach
Reduce cost by 10 points

Terrorgheist, Mortis Engine
Unchanged

Dwarves

Lord
Lower of the cost of crossbows and handguns by 2 points each
Lower base cost by 5 points

Runelord
Lower base cost by 10 points
Lower cost for Anvil of Doom by 70 points--nah 80 points

Daemon Slayer
Lower base cost by 10 points

Thane, Master Engineer
Unchanged

Dragon Slayer
Reduce base cost by 5 points

Dwarf Warriors
Unchanged

Dwarf Quarrelers
Reduce base cost by 0.5 points

Thunderers
Reduce base cost by 1 point

Longbeards
Unchanged

Cannon
Raise base cost by 30 points
This puts an un-runed Dwarf cannon on par with the points cost Empire cannons even though the Dwarves’ are slightly better (more T, WS, and BS). This is an army edge

Gyrocopter
Raise cost by 10 points
Remove restriction that only half Gyrocopters may buy the Vanguard upgrade

Bolt Thrower
Lower base cost by 5 points

Grudge Thrower
Raise base cost by 10 points

Hammerers, Ironbreakers, Slayers, Miners
Unchanged

Organ Gun
Unchanged

Flame Cannon
Reduce base cost by 10 points per model

Rangers
Unchanged

Irondrakes
Unchanged

Gyrobomber
Reduce base cost by 5 points per model

Thorgrim Grudgebearer
Reduce base cost by 20 points

Thorek Ironbrow
Reduce base cost by 90 points
Yes, he’s that bad in RAW

Ungrim Ironfist
Reduce base cost by 10 points

Belegar Ironhammer
Reduce base cost by 25 points

Josef Bugman, Grim Burloksson
Unchanged

 

[Scalenex]

High Elves

Reduce cost of Blade of Leaping Gold by 10 points
Reduce cost of Armor of Caledor by 5 points
Reduce cost of Shadow armor by 5 points

Reduce cost of Gem of Sunfire by 5 points, change the first sentence to "Activate at the start of any turn, one use only." for clarity

Raise cost of Book of Hoeth by 5 points

Banner of the World Dragon
Change the ward save bestowed to 3+
I wanted to just raise the price but then I realized this item would have become BSB only completely ruining it.


Prince
Reduce base cost by 10 points
Reduce the cost of lance by 2 points
Reduce the cost of all other mundane weapons by 1 point
Reduce the cost of all dragon mounts by 15 points
Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points


Archmage
Reduce the cost of all dragon mounts by 15 points
Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points

Annointed of Assuryan
Lower the cost of Flamespyre Phoenix mount option by 25 points
Raise the cost of Frostheart Pheonix mount option by 25 points

Lore Master of Hoeth
Reduce the base cost by 20 points

Noble
Reduce cost of lance by 2 points
Reduce cost of spear and longbow by 1 point
Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points

Mage
Reduce cost of Tiranoc Chariot mount by 5 points

Dragon Mage of Caledor
Reduce base cost by 15 points

Lothern Sea Helm
Add “if a second leadership test is passed, the unit may make a stand and shoot if ordinarily able but at an additional -1 to hit (to reflect the penalty for moving)” to the naval discipline rules section.

Handmaiden of the Everqueen
Reduce base cost by 5 points

Spearmen
Reduce base cost by 0.5 points per model

Archers
Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

Lothern Sea Guard
Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

Silver Helms
Unchanged

Ellyrian Reavers
Unchanged

Lion Chariot of Chrace
Reduce base cost by 10 points, this applies to Korhil’s mount option as well

White Lions of Chrace
Raise base cost by 1 point per model

Swordmasters of Hoeth
Unchanged

Shadow Warriors
Reduce base cost by 1 point

Phoenix Guard
Unchanged

Dragon Princes of Caledor
Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

Lothern Skycutter
Add note to profile. As a model with Fly, Lothern Skycutters may make a march move unless a spell or effect causes them to lose Fly. This naturally still applies when a Skycutter is chosen as a character mount.

Tiranoc Chariot
Reduce base cost by 5 points per model, this carries over to all characters who can take Tiranoc Chariots as a mount.

Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower
Move from Rare to Special

Great Eagles
Unchanged

Flamespyre Phoenix
Reduce base cost by 25 points

Frostheart Pheonix
Raise the base cost by 25 points

Sisters of Averlorn
Reduce base cost by 1 point per model

Tyrion
Unchanged

Teclis
Raise base cost by 5 points

Eltharion the Grim
Reduce base cost by 15 points
Reduce cost of Stormwing by 5 points

Alith Anar
Add special rule “Loner: At army creation you may choose another character to be general even if Alith Anar’s leadership exceeds that of all other eligible characters. You must designate whether or not Alith Anar or a substitute is acting as general before deployment.”

Alarielle the Radient
Unchanged

Korhil
Reduce base cost by 10 points, reduce cost of lion chariot by 10 points

Caradryan
Raise cost Ashtari by 25 points (to reflect the change in Frostheart Phoenixes)

 

[Scalenex]

Reserved for more army lists

This too.

 

[Scalenex]

This too.

This three

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I could give High elves a shot, And the you could (Scalenex) pick what you think sounds good.

 

[n810]

You need to add that Lord Kroak and the Engine of the gods,
hit ALL targets within range, even those in close combat
and targets to the front, flank or rear.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

You need to add that Lord Kroak and the Engine of the gods,
hit ALL targets within range, even those in close combat
and targets to the front, flank or rear.

Does the ark of sotek need the same clarification?

 

[n810]

Nope, I already says it can fire into combat.
(I think it specifies the front arc as well)

 

[lordkingcrow]

Considering that three of the four armies you've put on here are the armies I have (the fourth being the army I still want to make) I can only assume that you did this thinking about me. I think this is a pretty fair assessment of what needs to be fixed. I'm all on board for increasing the cost of cannons as well as going back to randomize what is hit.

 

[Scalenex]

I could give High elves a shot, And the you could (Scalenex) pick what you think sounds good.

I'm mostly done with a draft of the High Elves. I played on both sides of them before they got the new book and played them a bit after. Also they have an 8th edition handbook which makes tweaking them easier. I just need to figure out what to do with SC and give the first draft another look. Then it's on to Warriors of Chaos. Then I'm out of 8th edition handbooks that clearly indicate which units suck and which are overpowered.

I should be able to do Orcs and Goblins because I play them a lot, but I haven't played a wide breadth of them. There needs to be some incentive to take vanilla Orcs and Goblins. The norm seems to be Night Goblins over regular Goblins and Savage Orcs over regular Orcs (same with Savage Orc Boar cavalry).

Orcs and Goblins are not a top tier army so I would be reluctant to raise any points costs. Giants and Snotling swarms definitely need to go down. Not sure about the rest.

EDIT: High Elves now up.

 

[Pinktaco]

maybe up the price of savage orcs and reduce price of regualr orcs? Like one points each maybe?

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I just need to figure out what to do with SC and give the first draft another look.

Alright, I will send you might thoughts tough.

And with SC I think Tyrion should increase in points. I mean he can have 4 ws 9 strength 7 attacks and movement 10, an AS of 1 and a 4+ ward, his only weakness is that he is toughness 3, but that's an army weakness.

 

[Scalenex]

Alright, I will send you might thoughts tough.

And with SC I think Tyrion should increase in points. I mean he can have 4 ws 9 strength 7 attacks and movement 10, an AS of 1 and a 4+ ward, his only weakness is that he is toughness 3, but that's an army weakness.

Hmm, I actually lowered his points cost based on his treatment on the Ulthuan 8th edition handbook.

You have certainly convinced me not to lower the points cost but I'm not sure his cost should be raised. It's not uncommon to see Armor save 1+, Ward save 4+ characters. Movement 10 is not useable unless he deploys solo in which case he is an exposed target without a cavalry bus.

P.S. The proposed HE list is up right now by the way.

 

[Putzfrau]

No change to carnosaur?

Not a huge fan of the lizardmen changes. The point reductions/increases feel a little all over the place and not very reflective of what it does to the army. Example: Trog is simply not going to be good as is, unless its just stupidly cheap. The point decrease does nothing to make it more usable.

It feels like the army would be weaker overall after these changes. More options on whats you can reasonably take, but much weaker.

 

[Scalenex]

No change to carnosaur?

Not a huge fan of the lizardmen changes. The point reductions/increases feel a little all over the place and not very reflective of what it does to the army. Example: Trog is simply not going to be good as is, unless its just stupidly cheap. The point increase does nothing to make it more usable.

It feels like the army would be weaker overall after these changes. More options on whats you can reasonably take, but much weaker.

I was on the fence about whether or not to make Carnosaurs cheaper. I feared non-LM would look at the Lizardmen proposed changes with a magnifying glass, so I figured to be conservative with giving our scaly boys goodies.

Also, Carnosaurs get a boost indirectly by making it harder to kill both mount and rider simultaneously with template shooting.

 

[Putzfrau]

That makes sense. I'll be honest, the more i read about all this 8.1/openhammer/ninth hammer stuff the more I'm disliking it.

And i can't quite place why. Oh well. Either way, awesome work. This is very extensive and nothing really jumps out as being atrocious.

 

[Scalenex]

That makes sense. I'll be honest, the more i read about all this 8.1/openhammer/ninth hammer stuff the more I'm disliking it.

And i can't quite place why. Oh well. Either way, awesome work. This is very extensive and nothing really jumps out as being atrocious.

Not atrocious is high praise indeed. In any event I think your intial post holds wisdom and I slightly reduced the price of Carnosaurs and increased the discount o Troglodons a bit.

 

[Putzfrau]

Not atrocious is high praise indeed.

Haha, that was the attempt even if it didn't come across in the best way

 

[Scalenex]

Haha, that was the attempt even if it didn't come across in the best way

The intent was clear. I have been a moderator long enough that I can speak Forumese pretty fluently.

On an unrelated note. I am reconsidering the point increase on Scar Vets and Oldbloods. It's Cold Ones that the ETC limits. Maybe a modest increase in Cold One character mount costs.

 

[Putzfrau]

The intent was clear. I have been a moderator long enough that I can speak Forumese pretty fluently.

On an unrelated note. I am reconsidering the point increase on Scar Vets and Oldbloods. It's Cold Ones that the ETC limits. Maybe a modest increase in Cold One character mount costs.

I think that sounds very reasonable.