8th Ed. New Dwarfs? - Have anyone heard anything?

[A Steaming Kroak]

Well, after taking the past few months off from Warhammer I can start to fell myself getting sucked back in with the Dwarf release. Dwarfs were my first army and I have a strange fondness for them despite their disadvantages.

I think that the new book will encourage more of the same style of "Furgil" (from Bugmans Brewery) armylists. The change in this new version of the list will be the inclusion of the 12" stubborn banner on a horde of hammerers, which will be flanked by two hordes of GW warriors. This will be backed up by 4-5 warmachines, a runesmith, and a BSB. Dwarfs will likely suffer more against heavy magic, but the stubborn bubble and ability to spam the rune of forging onto warmachines that are not cannons should make for an interesting but subtle change to the army.

I'm sure you will see some more interesting builds that will take advantage of vanguarding units, miners, rangers, and Gyros. But I think that the most competitive armies will still follow the same old style of play that has been dominant for dwarfs in the 8th edition.

I guess I now need to decide whether I'll be using Dwarfs or Lizards for the upcoming tournaments.

 

[Sleboda]

So yeah, it is a big hit on their magic resistance.

=> It may or may not be a hit, but any argument that says they have a massive weakness in magic is not one I can support.

 

[GCPD]

Problem is, it isn't encouraging them to play aggressively, it's encouraging them to charge. Not quite the same thing, and in this case movement three infantry don't get the charge against faster opponents by marching straight forward into their superior charge range. They get the charge my making the enemy come to them, and hope to either roll well on the turn he enters charge range, or else trick him into leaving himself exposed. In short, through defensive tactics.
More importantly, the factors which currently straight-jacket dwarves into a defensive playing style are still there. There are still a lot of opponents they can only deal with shooting, and they're still an army composed of M3 infantry and artillery. In fact, with the removal of the anvil of doom and the master rune of challenge, and the movement of rangers from core to rare, the new book is if anything more limited in its movement options.
With the organ gun rolling to hit and thunderers losing their bonus, chameleon skinks might become a real pain for dwarves to deal with, but they'll have to be wary of gyrocopters, and the occasional dwarf character wielding a flaming breath weapon.

I think you're probably right, and this refers to a comment I made on druchii.net under my alter ego: Vetock just isn't the man to deliver significant change where its needed. He just tinkers round the edges. I think the +1 S/+1 WD is a great rule but, as you say, there's not quite enough there to get the Dwarves moving in the first place. That requires some more radical change - like, Dwarves get x3 march movement in the first turn; or double their M value when charging; or some other break from the base rules like the Dwarves themselves.

That being said, there are some nice runic banners to help Dwarves get charging now, such as a reverse Swiftstride, plus a bunch of Vanguard runes. I'm liking the Rune Smiths, and I'd probably be strongly tempted - except that I'm not a huge fan of big, slow infantry lists.

So, its almost there... but falls just... heheh... short.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

/skips thread.

Looks like the new Dwarfs have a BIG infection of sell-new-models-by-making-their-rules-the-best-in-the-book, right?

 

[GCPD]

I hate that sentiment, because its just not true. Everytime a Cauldron of Blood or Skullcrusher rolls round, it becomes self-reinforcing.

But everyone conveniently forgets about both the new kits with terrible rules, which are just as common (Warshrines, Mutaliths/Slaughterbrutes, Carnosaur/Trogolodon), or the new kits with distinctly average rules, which are far more common (Skycutters, Bastiladons, Ripperdactyls, Sisters of Averlorn, Cold One Chariot/Scourgerunner). And nobody is ever able to explain how old stuff getting better fits into this narrative (eg: Daemon Princes).

Much of the new Dwarf stuff looks good, for sure, but I'm not seeing it set the meta on fire.

 

[JuQ]

=> It may or may not be a hit, but any argument that says they have a massive weakness in magic is not one I can support.

It is a huge hit compared to the old rules (wich apparently you don't know/remember). However, there is still to be tested how good is their defense now.

/skips thread.

Looks like the new Dwarfs have a BIG infection of sell-new-models-by-making-their-rules-the-best-in-the-book, right?

Isn't that the same for almost every army? After all, it is no secret that GW cares more about the sales that having a good, balanced game system.

Gyrobombers looks awesome in the paper. But I'm not so sure about the Irondrakes because they remind me a bit too much of the Jezzails, halving the 36" range and getting quick to fire in return wich in my opinion are useless, maybe the the fact they are 25% chaper makes them good.

 

[JuQ]

Double posted. How can I delete a post?

 

[Sleboda]

... compared to the old rules (wich apparently you don't know/remember).

=> Not sure why you would go there.

I remember the old rules just fine. I'm saying that the new rules are not a "massive" hit. In fact, you can now put a dispel scroll on every hero in the army, and not just runesmiths.

Are the other rules a slight downward tweak? Probably a touch, but an any doesn't care if the foot that crushes him weighs 50 pounds or 250 pounds. He's still dead either way. Tomb Kings are still going to be auto-lose to dwarves since they are still not going to have any spells get off.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Hey JuQ,

A moderator can delete a double post, but instead do camouflage!,

if you agree with the last poster do a

If you disagree, go

(Warning: if you were the last poster and you use or , you will look confused)

BTW. You have the most awesome avatar. Have you considered asking n810 to give your radioactive/magical frog weapons?


Does it look like the Dwarf tactica will need a big rewrite?

 

[JuQ]

=> Not sure why you would go there.

I remember the old rules just fine. I'm saying that the new rules are not a "massive" hit. In fact, you can now put a dispel scroll on every hero in the army, and not just runesmiths.

Are the other rules a slight downward tweak? Probably a touch, but an any doesn't care if the foot that crushes him weighs 50 pounds or 250 pounds. He's still dead either way. Tomb Kings are still going to be auto-lose to dwarves since they are still not going to have any spells get off.

Dispel runes are Runesmiths/Runelords only.

In the older book they could get a difference of 3 dice with a 150 point geared runesmith. If they also added the Runelord with Anvil of Doom they got 3 additional dice and probably about 4 dispel runes, that was way too much (kinda like the old Slann).
Now, except for the basic +2 to dispel roll, all that made their dispeling good is gone.
They fixed the MRo Balance to work half of the time (wich IMO it's ok, but they could also lower a bit the cost instead of leaving it the same, you can only bring one anyway).
The runesmiths only add die on a 6 (like everybody else) and can only carry one dispel rune, that is their only contribution to counter magic (wich is their reason to be on the list). The channeling is an uneffective game mechanic so they are just paying 100 points for a dispel rune and an armor penetration buff to the unit (also MR1/MR2 but that is negligible).
Unless they get the Valaya banner they defend just like two lvl2 mages with a Dispel Scroll each. And as a game designer you cannot expect the players to take one determinate banner on the BSB every game just so the army don't get raped in magic phase.

The Dwarf concept is "You don't have magic, but you are good against it". The way it is now they are as good as anyone else (kinda like what happened to the Slann).

_______
Thanks spawning of Bob. Frog weapons? that would be nice! Maybe a palaquin also!

 

[GCPD]

Isn't that the same for almost every army? After all, it is no secret that GW cares more about the sales that having a good, balanced game system.

Again, there's no evidence that GW deliberately write better rules for new units, or units with new models, in order to promote sales.

There is evidence that GW can't balance new units properly, which means that their power level tends to be all over the place. When it comes to rebalancing existing units, there's also evidence that they sometimes tend to overcompensate.

The Warriors of Chaos is a classic example:

New units introduced with great rules: Chimeras, Skullcrushers
New units with average rules: Hellstriders
New units with terrible rules: Mutalith/Slaughterbrute
Old units given new models and better rules: Chariots
Old units given new models and poor rules: Warshrines, Dragon Ogres, Forsaken
Old units with no new models, but better rules: Daemon Princes
Old units with worse rules and no new models: Chosen.

If GW were pushing sales over balance, Chosen and Mutaliths would have been made amazing because of the expense of the models; whereas Daemon Princes, Chimeras and Skullcrushers are fairly cost-efficient (lower prices, fewer models needed).

Or look at our own Lizardmen release: of the new units, Carnosaurs/Trogolodons are poor to terrible, whilst Ripperdactyls and Bastiladons are at best distinctly average, and Terradons and Skink Priests unchanged (as good as they ever were). Probably the most efficient Lizardmen lists don't use any of the new models, and everyone already has Skink Priests and Terradons anyway. So where are the rules-promoted sales?

Its just incorrect to conclude that GW write rules with sales in mind: they design models with sales in mind, and the rules get attached on to them.

 

[Tecuani]

The "new" gyrobombers aren't the ones to watch out for, rather you should be wary of their smaller cousins that are now more easily available, with an option for vanguard. If you don't have a way to handle them, you might end up getting hit by a lot of flame templates-only S3, but armour piercing, and let's not forget skinks are only T2. With so many of the other movement options dwarves used to have access to restricted or removed entirely, I'd expect to see a lot of these, because they are the only way dwarves can gain any initiative in the movement phase at all-vanguard gives them an edge in deployment, but once the game starts they're on their own. Luckily, they aren't that hard to shoot, but S3 skink shooting might struggle against a high toughness and armour save.

 

[Gor-rok]

Isn't that the same for almost every army? After all, it is no secret that GW cares more about the sales that having a good, balanced game system.

Again, there's no evidence that GW deliberately write better rules for new units, or units with new models, in order to promote sales.

There is evidence that GW can't balance new units properly, which means that their power level tends to be all over the place. When it comes to rebalancing existing units, there's also evidence that they sometimes tend to overcompensate.

The Warriors of Chaos is a classic example:

New units introduced with great rules: Chimeras, Skullcrushers
New units with average rules: Hellstriders
New units with terrible rules: Mutalith/Slaughterbrute
Old units given new models and better rules: Chariots
Old units given new models and poor rules: Warshrines, Dragon Ogres, Forsaken
Old units with no new models, but better rules: Daemon Princes
Old units with worse rules and no new models: Chosen.

If GW were pushing sales over balance, Chosen and Mutaliths would have been made amazing because of the expense of the models; whereas Daemon Princes, Chimeras and Skullcrushers are fairly cost-efficient (lower prices, fewer models needed).

Or look at our own Lizardmen release: of the new units, Carnosaurs/Trogolodons are poor to terrible, whilst Ripperdactyls and Bastiladons are at best distinctly average, and Terradons and Skink Priests unchanged (as good as they ever were). Probably the most efficient Lizardmen lists don't use any of the new models, and everyone already has Skink Priests and Terradons anyway. So where are the rules-promoted sales?

Its just incorrect to conclude that GW write rules with sales in mind: they design models with sales in mind, and the rules get attached on to them.

^This. Thank you.

I just picked up the Dwarf Book. It looks solid, but very... conservative. The only brand new unit types I can notice are the Iron Drakes and the Gyrobomber, which look good on paper. Their anti-magic went from ridiculous to above average, and they got some very nice rules for close combat. Nothing jaw dropping, but that does seem somehow appropriate for the stodgy old fellas. I would have put money on a steam powered golem kit, but oh well.

As the previous poster mentioned, the regular Gyrocopters have the potential to be extremely irritating to some, outright lethal to others. They're cheap, and they can take six of them in a regular sized army. Have fun with twelve of them at >3000 points.

The Dwarf players at my store were all gritting their teeth in anticipation of losing the runic system, which appears to be in fine form. Some of the combinations are amazing, but, as others have said, the price will quickly spiral out of control if you try to tool up everything. Hands down, they have the best magic equipment in the game, which is exactly as it should be.

My favorite so far is 50 points of runes on a banner that makes the opponent roll 2d6 when attempting to charge the unit carrying it, and subtract the highest die rolled from their charge distance. I'd put it on the Iron Drakes and enjoy some additional volleys of S5 shot (and they have quick to fire, with no stand and shoot penalty!)

 

[GCPD]

I spotted that one, as well. Its very powerful for shooting at something, getting a stand and shoot, then walking backwards 2" and shooting again, then getting another stand and shoot. To be honest, you wouldn't go wrong dropping the first level Rune of Slowness on all your ranged units. It probably doesn't promote the counter-charge melee style as much as it probably should though (although its also very powerful on melee units so you can get your +1 Strength eg Hammerers).

 

[Gor-rok]

It looks like the Iron Drakes are the only dedicated ranged unit that can take a runic standard, but I'd be inclined to take two 20-man units in a list. You can't duplicate the same rune combination anywhere in the army, so one would get the level 2, and the other some different variant.

Hammerers can have a 75 point banner, so they'd be a good candidate for the near mandatory +2 to dispel banner; that rune isn't limited to the BSB.

 

[JuQ]

Isn't that the same for almost every army? After all, it is no secret that GW cares more about the sales that having a good, balanced game system.

Again, there's no evidence that GW deliberately write better rules for new units, or units with new models, in order to promote sales.
...

What about the Demigriphs and the buffwagons for the Empire, the HPA for the Skaven, the Arachnarok and the Mangler Squigs for O&G?
Maybe it isn't a conspiracy, but you can't deny there seem to be a pattern there.
With the latest Lizardmen book didn't happened that, but it was a huge disappoint mostly all of it. The thing I like most from the new book for me are the solar Bastiladons because you can get a couple of them instead of taking a Slann.

 

[Gor-rok]

Ever see the movie Cube? Great film. Not to give too much away, but the characters are trying to puzzle out what the hell is going on, and why, and people are coming up with all these conspiracy theories about secret government groups and eccentric psychopaths and complex, hidden agendas. Then one guy who has inside knowledge of the whole thing speaks up, and says that from everything he can tell, there's absolutely no rhyme nor reason to any of it; no one at the top, no one pulling the strings, just a mindless, directionless abomination functioning for the sake of sustaining itself.

That is GW in a nutshell. If people see a pattern in what they do, it's because they're looking for one.

Remember, when the Hellpit Abomination and Mangler Squigs first got rules in the last army books, they didn't have models for the longest time, and people were proxying all kinds of stuff for them. Same thing with Tervigon/Tyrannofex in 40K. It's like it took them by surprise that people would want to use a unit with no model just because the rules for it were good.

Speaking of 40K, CSM got the new Heldrake model in 6th ed., which is crazy powerful. They also got Mutilators, Maulerfiend/Forgefiend, Warp Talons, Helbrute... Basically a parade of garbage. Tau got almost unilaterally better, both new and old figures, while Tyranids got worse- particularly some of the brand new "Flagship" models they're trying to push.

People see patterns in the clouds all the time, too, but you won't convince me there's a design behind them.

 

[Putzfrau]

Ever see the movie Cube? Great film. Not to give too much away, but the characters are trying to puzzle out what the hell is going on, and why, and people are coming up with all these conspiracy theories about secret government groups and eccentric psychopaths and complex, hidden agendas. Then one guy who has inside knowledge of the whole thing speaks up, and says that from everything he can tell, there's absolutely no rhyme nor reason to any of it; no one at the top, no one pulling the strings, just a mindless, directionless abomination functioning for the sake of sustaining itself.

That is GW in a nutshell. If people see a pattern in what they do, it's because they're looking for one.

Remember, when the Hellpit Abomination and Mangler Squigs first got rules in the last army books, they didn't have models for the longest time, and people were proxying all kinds of stuff for them. Same thing with Tervigon/Tyrannofex in 40K. It's like it took them by surprise that people would want to use a unit with no model just because the rules for it were good.

Speaking of 40K, CSM got the new Heldrake model in 6th ed., which is crazy powerful. They also got Mutilators, Maulerfiend/Forgefiend, Warp Talons, Helbrute... Basically a parade of garbage. Tau got almost unilaterally better, both new and old figures, while Tyranids got worse- particularly some of the brand new "Flagship" models they're trying to push.

People see patterns in the clouds all the time, too, but you won't convince me there's a design behind them.

Tyranids will eventually be better. No one has adjusted yet. Flyrants are godly. The whole army can pew pew pretty hard. They did okay at the Las Vegas open, with a 54% win rate with most of the players in the top half. The win rate was actually 4th highest behind only tau eldar and necron.

I do agree with the overall point you were trying to make tho.

 

[Gor-rok]

Flyrants, which were awesome in the last book and everybody and their dog has two of, got better. Walking Tyrant, which no one modeled and who got an awesome new Tyrant Guard kit to accompany him, has nothing going for it and is a terrible liability. Hive Guard, the other thing that kit makes, went up in points, lost a point of BS, and got a new weapon model that is basically useless. Warriors got a new kit and are still terrible; Termagants that we already have shoe boxes full of went down in points, and can finally take mixed weapons in a brood.

It's not that it's a weak book, but a bad one, and it doesn't even try to sell most of the new models with good rules. But, we were talking about Dwarfs...

 

[Putzfrau]

Flyrants, which were awesome in the last book and everybody and their dog has two of, got better. Walking Tyrant, which no one modeled and who got an awesome new Tyrant Guard kit to accompany him, has nothing going for it and is a terrible liability. Hive Guard, the other thing that kit makes, went up in points, lost a point of BS, and got a new weapon model that is basically useless. Warriors got a new kit and are still terrible; Termagants that we already have shoe boxes full of went down in points, and can finally take mixed weapons in a brood.

It's not that it's a weak book, but a bad one, and it doesn't even try to sell most of the new models with good rules. But, we were talking about Dwarfs...

I agree