7th Ed. My Carnosuar keeps dying

[Nexus]

I normally Face Dark Elfs, Orks, Empire and Daemons. With the exception of the daemons, my Carnosaur quickly becomes a giant dead pin cushion, i've tried a few times and even used a Large rain forest terrain piece.

I'm beginning to think that i should give up on the old big lizards.

Any ideas?

 

[blackhawk]

we don't know what you are doing wrong.
you should tell us how your carno dies... and wich equipment you give your oldblood.
only then can we actually give a bit advice.

you do kno wthat the carno isn't a large target anymore did you?

 

[kroxigor01]

Rembember that not being a large target allows the carno to be screened by skinks.

 

[Scarloc]

You know if your carno is dying by being shot at he is doing a good enough job as is. The rest of your army should be unmolested for the next turn or two.

 

[Nexus]

Wow i can't believe i missed that they aren't large tgt anymore, that will make a big difference.

And yeah i know that they can soak up shots, but i would prefer to use a steg if i was gonna try that.

I'll try one in my next battle and try to report it on here.

 

[didleoman]

those giant pins must be getting luck hits since the old blood and the carno are toughness 5 and the most of those armies have strength 3 srchers (not including warmachines)

even if the rider dies your carno should still be able to wreck havok with a good roll on the table or vice versa with the old blood just going on foot.

 

[Nexus]

Yeah, but the problem is warmachines, everyone is scared of the steg and carnosuar and so they take a lot of them, the most feared for me being the empire's volley gun. But i'm learning how to use the new terradons properly.

 

[didleoman]

drop rocks is an amazing thing especially if you drop rocks on one warmachine and charge the other machine next to it in one motion

 

[Nexus]

drop rocks is an amazing thing especially if you drop rocks on one warmachine and charge the other machine next to it in one motion

I was just talking to a friend of mine about if that would be possible, it sounds pretty tough!

 

[Caneghem]

drop rocks is an amazing thing especially if you drop rocks on one warmachine and charge the other machine next to it in one motion

Can't do this unfortunately. The rocks are dropped in the remaining moves part of the movement phase which is after charges.

 

[strewart]

Also I always thought that if you charge you had to charge in the most direct way possible, ie. not via several other units. This does not matter for anything else except for screamers, who have a similar but better ability.

Caneghem is right though. You drop rocks while moving, charges are declared and performed before the movement.

 

[msinosic]

drop rocks is an amazing thing especially if you drop rocks on one warmachine and charge the other machine next to it in one motion

Can't do this unfortunately. The rocks are dropped in the remaining moves part of the movement phase which is after charges.

Not sure why they cant?

Terradons can drop rocks on any unit they have moved over in that Phase. Phase being the Movement Phase. Which if they did manage to charge over a unit into another unit would be allowed to drop rocks on the unit they flew over.

The tricky part is getting LOS to the unit behind the one you want to drop rocks on.

 

[Caneghem]

drop rocks is an amazing thing especially if you drop rocks on one warmachine and charge the other machine next to it in one motion

Can't do this unfortunately. The rocks are dropped in the remaining moves part of the movement phase which is after charges.

Not sure why they cant?

Terradons can drop rocks on any unit they have moved over in that Phase. Phase being the Movement Phase. Which if they did manage to charge over a unit into another unit would be allowed to drop rocks on the unit they flew over.

The tricky part is getting LOS to the unit behind the one you want to drop rocks on.

I think I could see the weakness in how the rule is written that you are latching onto, but the intent seems clear enough for me.

"Once a game, during the Remaining Moves segment of the Movement phase, a unit of Terradon Riders may drop rocks on an enemy unit at least one of its models has moved over during that phase."

The fact that they ended that sentence with "phase" and not "Remaining Moves segment of the movement phase" could be intentional, or just shorthand. Common sense should tell you how to interpret the intent of that sentence, but I have a feeling we are not in disagreement as to the intent of the rules. The disagreement is whether to play the rules as intended, or the rules as interpreted to best advantage.

 

[msinosic]

While this is a creative and useful interpretation of the ability, it is quite incorrect. The first sentence of the drop rocks ability clears this up.

"Once a game, during the Remaining Moves segment of the Movement phase..."

Refer to the BRB if you don't recall when the Remaining Moves phase occurs....

and if you continue the quote you see that;

"Once a game, during the Remaining Moves segment of the Movement phase, a unit of Terradon Riders may drop rocks on an enemy unit at least one of its models has moved over during that phase."

Yes i Know you declare and move chargers before remaining moves. Which of course means if you declared and charged a unit that has taken you over another unit then you have indeed moved over that unit during the movement phase and may therefore drop your rocks in the remaining moves section of that movement phase.

 

[msinosic]

The fact that they ended that sentence with "phase" and not "Remaining Moves segment of the movement phase" could be intentional, or just shorthand. Common sense should tell you how to interpret the intent of that sentence, but I have a feeling we are not in disagreement as to the intent of the rules. The disagreement is whether to play the rules as intended, or the rules as interpreted to best advantage.

We are in disagreement. This has noting to do with common sense. I can't believe that for once a rule is written so clearly and because you dont agree with whats written and you think you know their intent was different to the rule conveyed, that you can point the finger at those with differing opinions to you citing them as trying to exploit the rules to their best advantage.

Till their intent changes or the word 'phase' changes to 'remaining moves segment of the movement phase' or even just 'segment' i cant see there being any doubt in the ruling or a players integrity being questioned in playing the ruling as its written.

I don't know about you but if there is a vague ruling that need carification, I have and will always continue to side with the common sense/spirit of game outcome.

 

[Caneghem]

So why do they even mention the remaining moves segment of the phase? I find it unusual that the rocks would be dropped but the damage would be worked out later. Parachute rocks maybe? It is unheard of for an attack to happen and damage be worked out later, most things in warhammer are resolved as they happen.

Screamers of tzeentch have a very similar attack, and they are described as only be able to use it in remaining moves phase.

I guess it is pretty rare that it would come up, you'd probably need to be on a hill with your terradons anyway, with a couple units in a line.

"I can't believe that for once a rule is written so clearly and because you dont agree with whats written and you think you know their intent was different to the rule conveyed, that you can point the finger at those with differing opinions to you citing them as trying to exploit the rules to their best advantage."

The intent is clear, but the rule as written has a SEMANTIC loophole in it. If the rule had been clearly written, there would be no reason for debate at all.

What you are looking for is free license to use your upgraded version of drop rocks and you don't want to feel cheesy when you do it, so you want people to agree with you. I for one will not grant you that absolution. We're probably just different kinds of players, I prefer to play the rules as the average joe would interpret them. I mean, most people who play competitively will have a passing familiarity with all the rulebooks. It takes a special kind of "research" to discover new abilities like this one. But I just see it as causing conflict when it comes to games. This is why I advise people against using things like the giant bow auto-skewering a whole rank and this thing. It's just something that has a convoluted explanation that would slow down a game or cause a conflict.

"I don't know about you but if there is a vague ruling that need carification, I have and will always continue to side with the common sense/spirit of game outcome."

Common sense would dictate that during a charge, you wouldn't be able to aim as well as not during a charge and you'd be more focused on hitting what you charge. This is why you can't charge and shoot weapons with any other unit in the game, and why I think that it better keeps with the spirit of the game to say drop rocks is no different.

I didn't think this even needed a FAQ, but now I guess it does.

 

[msinosic]

So why do they even mention the remaining moves segment of the phase? I find it unusual that the rocks would be dropped but the damage would be worked out later. Parachute rocks maybe? It is unheard of for an attack to happen and damage be worked out later, most things in warhammer are resolved as they happen.

Where in the rulebook does it say the damage is done later by the ''parachute rocks'?

I am sure you will find they mention the 'remaining moves segment of the phase' because that is when the damage occurs, that is when the rocks are dropped. No where does it say wait till later to do the rock damage.

Till the wording is changed, either because their oringal intent was different or because it was a wording mistake the rules as they stand are very clear. There is no semantic loophole, there is only a black and white rule.

 

[strewart]

Just a quick prod to put this thread back on topic. It is about stopping a carnosaur from dying, not the wording of the terradon rules. It is once again clear that there are two opposing views on the matter, but if you want to keep the discussion going then feel free to start a new thread.

 

[msinosic]

Just a quick prod to put this thread back on topic.

I only thought to draw the attention away from the Carnosaur with a little friendly debating about the Terradons. You see while, the focus was on Caneghem and myself the OPs Carnosaur has run off to wreak havoc amongst the enemy lines! Munch! Munch!!

Problem solved?

 

[MrPeaBuddy]

drop rocks is an amazing thing especially if you drop rocks on one warmachine and charge the other machine next to it in one motion

Can't do this unfortunately. The rocks are dropped in the remaining moves part of the movement phase which is after charges.

Yeah can you drop rocks after fling over a unit whilst charging into anotherone on the other side??