Tutorial Matched Play List GHB2019

[karlsbc]

Hey, I'm new to the game, although not to the hobby. I've started started gathering (and painting and converting) seraphon minis and playing friendly games with people that enjoy competitive lists and tournaments.

I want to play lists based on battalions. As almost all seraphon players do. At the same time I already have what I think is a decent amount of minis (4000+ points) and I'd like to not get crazy and to spend as "little" as possible from now on expanding.

l've just recently buyed minis from eBay in a good deal to add to what I already had (Shadowstrike Christmas bundle, Start collecting + skinks + basti + conversions).
As result I happen to have now 2 Slanns and 6 terradons while only having 3 rippers.
So now I can play a fully loaded Thunderquake batallion, Firelance/Dracothion's and Sunclaw at minimum, in addition to Shadowstrike.
I want to ask:
- Does it change much the gameplay to switch 6 rippers for 6 terradons in many of your lists? I understand that summoning rippers doesn't allow to use the toad and it's a disadvantage.
- What's better: Terradon Alfa or Master of the Skies with Skyblade?
- Is Firelance at minimum (3x5 units + Svarvet) always optimal? It seems that the battalion is often run at minimum as a way to get Dracothion's tail.
- Can double-Slann lits be viable with the new spell lore?
- Is a hunting pack of 3 salamanders viable in Thunderquake? The idea is that summoned razordons are still good after summoning 9" away, but not sallies.
- Do you play Sunclaw and Eternal in different or similar ways? (Defending territory, attacking?)

 

[Aktanolt]

Hi Kartsbc and welcome to Lustria.
You already got a solid collection but yet can be improved !
To answer :
- Rippers works as 6/9 in Shadowtrike while terradons really shines when picked as 9/12 , so yes there is quite a big impact difference between swapping 6 teradons with 6 rippers in term of effiency.
- Would say Alpha, but both can work.
- Firelance is bad alone , let's face it ^^ However Dracothion tail is one of our best Batalion right now ( 1 drop ! ) so yep minimal Firelance is good in that case. You also can pump up one unit of cav to spam CP with the scarvet but minimal is ok as Taxe.
- Noone really tried double slaan but Slaan + kroak is viable ( maybe even tournament viable )
- Yes
- Not usre about this as i didnt really play both of those. However Sunclaw is often played in Fangs of sotek where you run to the enemy and block him in his zone. Eternal is way more defensive.

 

[Canas]

- Does it change much the gameplay to switch 6 rippers for 6 terradons in many of your lists? I understand that summoning rippers doesn't allow to use the toad and it's a disadvantage.

it plays basicly the same, it's just (usually) less effective but the playstyle itself barely changes.

- What's better: Terradon Alfa or Master of the Skies with Skyblade?

A master of the skies hits slightly harder. But the difference is minimal and 1 round of shooting in which you don't reach melee already cancels out the advantage.

- Is Firelance at minimum (3x5 units + Svarvet) always optimal? It seems that the battalion is often run at minimum as a way to get Dracothion's tail.

Big blobs of knights are unwieldy & don't really hold any advantages over minimum sized (with 1 or two situational exceptions). Also, knights are underwhelming as best and usually viewed as a tax, hence people rarely field a lot of em.

- Can double-Slann lits be viable with the new spell lore?

Nope still nowhere near enough (interesting) spells for that, a slann + Kroak can work reasonably though.

- Is a hunting pack of 3 salamanders viable in Thunderquake? The idea is that summoned razordons are still good after summoning 9" away, but not sallies.

both salamanders and razordons can be used in thunderquake and as summons. Salamanders are a bit more reliant on their handlers to be usefull though given their short range.

- Do you play Sunclaw and Eternal in different or similar ways? (Defending territory, attacking?)

Eternal is far more defensive and far more suspectible to mortal wounds (and will have to dance aorund any sources of mortal wounds) Sunclaw cares a lot less about mortal wounds but is far squishier overall.

Also, sunclaw has far more bodies, which has it's advantages.

 

[LizardWizard]

Welcome @karlsbc

@Aktanolt provided you some awesome concise answers. I would like to expand some on your questions.

The theory crafting for AoS is less transferable between 1k and 2k army building. All the advice below will be based off the assumption that you are playing pitched battles at 2000MPP. As a result some of these answers, while not specifically stated, will be based off attempting to solve the problems that meta list present.

- Does it change much the gameplay to switch 6 rippers for 6 terradons in many of your lists? I understand that summoning rippers doesn't allow to use the toad and it's a disadvantage. What's better: Terradon Alfa or Master of the Skies with Skyblade?

It changes quite a bit. This is not a bad thing though. Terradons are more flexible in their play than Ripperdactyls. They are able to drop their bombs on one unit, shoot into an other, and then charge and attack a third if they want. Rippderactyls only have their melee attacks, and thus are more limited in their target options. That being said, Ripperdactyls will normally deal double or more damage than Terradons.

When I run a Terradon SSlist I use a unit of 12 in the battalion. I built a master of the Skys because they looked awesome and reminded me of Tictakto from WHFB. However, with only a unit of 6 I would build the Alpha and Sunleech Bolas. Bolas are much better than Javs when you use them in SS as the range will not be an issue. Like @Aktanolt said the split is 9/12 Terradons to 6/9 Ripperdactyls. Thus Rippers are more focused in their targets, but allow more room in your list to include other specialized or generalist units. While Terradons are generalist, but will require a greater investment to fully shine.

Is Firelance at minimum (3x5 units + Svarvet) always optimal? It seems that the battalion is often run at minimum as a way to get Dracothion's tail.

Firelane as a battalion is one of our weaker battalions. Dracothion's Tail on the other hand is one of our strongest. This is why you see a lot of list which use the Firelance Starhost. It is basically just a tax. Here is a Firelance Control list I wrote, but it is objectively worse than other Starhost in my opinion.

Can double-Slann lits be viable with the new spell lore?

Two Slanns working together could certainly happen in lore. You could even write the fluff of your army to be two binary starrs in their constellation. In terms of game play I do not think it it worth listing two Slann unless one of them is Lord Kroak. Even then the double Slann list feels less flexible than single Slann armies. The Spell Lores are simply not strong enough to warrant two Slanns.

If you want more access to the spells then I would simply take more Skink Starpriest. 3x Starpriest will be cheaper than an additional Slann and will actually allow you to cast more spells from our new lore than an additional Slann would.

Is a hunting pack of 3 salamanders viable in Thunderquake? The idea is that summoned razordons are still good after summoning 9" away, but not sallies.

Salamanders are great in Thunderquake. You already have to include the 3x Skink Handlers to fill the battalion tax anyways.

Do you play Sunclaw and Eternal in different or similar ways? (Defending territory, attacking?)

I play Sunclaw aggressively. I normally build the list as part of Fangs of Sotek and thus also get to dictate the initial turn sequence which allows for objective basses aggression depending on the battleplan. Saurus Warriors are a glass hammer and thus need to be swung before someone decides to break them. Eternal Starhost is generally less aggressive because players are normally chasing the 1+ save with D3 Damage on their attacks. This requires not charging and keeping your battalion close together in order to gain the full aura of affects. As a result Eternal Starhost is much more defensive in playstyle and works best on battleplans where there are less objective markers and the enemy has to come to you.

 

[karlsbc]

Tanks for good advice @Aktanolt, @Canas, @LizardWizard!

People where I live use to play 2000. We'll see if Meeting engagement chatches fire or is just ignored in a while.

I' think that I'll just stick to the minis that I already have, eventually testing optimal lists with proxies and just when getting a better knowledge of the game deciding how to expand. For now I'll focus on Thunderquake or Shadowstrike since is difficult to get both together (and getting able to summon).
At the moment I'm probably a little bit short of skinks (only 40 atm) and for what I see from your comments I'm also short of flyers.

 

[LizardWizard]

At the moment I'm probably a little bit short of skinks (only 40 atm) and for what I see from your comments I'm also short of flyers.

@karlsbc Glad we were of assistance.

Meeting Engagement are very promising. I am hoping they gain some traction and start showing up at GTs.

If you expand your fliers I would buy a single box of Ripperdactyls. The Terradons you already own will always be useful if you are running any EotGs as they make for great summons.

 

[Tilorn91]

What I'd give to have at least a somewhat good meeting engagement list with a Dread Saurian in it, spent two months painting it in my spare time. Too much investment to just never summon it with 40 points, gotta go the 420 list route. Anyone made something usable?

 

[LizardWizard]

What I'd give to have at least a somewhat good meeting engagement list with a Dread Saurian in it, spent two months painting it in my spare time. Too much investment to just never summon it with 40 points, gotta go the 420 list route. Anyone made something usable?

I will work on one. Not sure how viable it is though.

 

[LizardWizard]

Dread Saurian Meeting Engagement

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Ghur

SPEARHEAD:
Skink Priest (80)
- Feather Cloak
3 x Terradon Riders (120)
- Sunleech Bolas

MAIN BODY
Skink Starpriest (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
-Spell Lore: Meteoric Convocation
-Arefact: Ghyrp-feather Charm
10 x Saurus Guard (160)
Dread Saurian (420)

REARGUARD:
2 x Razordons (100)
3 x Skink Handlers (40)

TOTAL: 1000/1000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0
WOUNDS: 52

@Tilorn91 hope you like it!

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[Tilorn91]

I'm giving it a shot this saturday, some friends and me are going to play a few games. No idea how I'm going to fit a a4 paper size base anywhere on the battlefield but I'll give it my best shot, thanks for the list!

 

[Acehilator]

Well you can overhang to one side of the battlefield during deployment, so you got that going for you lol.

 

[LizardWizard]

I'm giving it a shot this saturday, some friends and me are going to play a few games. No idea how I'm going to fit a a4 paper size base anywhere on the battlefield but I'll give it my best shot, thanks for the list!

You will have to house rule it to make it playable. You can only overhang by half your bases area for RAW.

 

[Klap]

Does a DT thunderquake list work? Has anyone tried it out?

 

[LizardWizard]

Does a DT thunderquake list work? Has anyone tried it out?

It works fairly well. The points changes have made it better because you can now take the Bastiladon EotGs TQ and and still fit the DT side. The downside is you only get one Razordon and Skink Handlers which is a pretty heft tax. At least if you want to include a Saurus AB. You also won't have room for Cogs or BwV.

 

[Lizerd]

Here is the real question: can a Fangs of Sotek list be atleast relatively successful? I doubt it could be super competitive but in smaller tournaments I was wondering if there was a potential list that could work

 

[LizardWizard]

Here is the real question: can a Fangs of Sotek list be atleast relatively successful? I doubt it could be super competitive but in smaller tournaments I was wondering if there was a potential list that could work

I have used this list a few times for casual games. I think depending on the event it could do alright, but I wouldn't consider taking it to a big event. It should be playable at small events with 10 or less players though.

 

[Lizerd]

That’s pretty similar to the list I was thinking of using. My primary motivation for FOS were to counter a few things, namely chaos as I have been seeing them a lot lately. I also play death so I need a good general infantry to have any hope of standing up to them. My idea was that FoS could provide that.

 

[LizardWizard]

I also play death so I need a good general infantry to have any hope of standing up to them.

Death should win about all infantry matches. When I play vs Death armies I focus on objectives and slowing the movement of my opponent. This can be tricky with Nighthaunt as they can fly and are able to retreat very effectively as a result. In those instances you will want to create multiple zones of blocking. Skink summon spam has worked for me so far. In most matches I am able to saturate the objectives and zone our enemy advancements.

Fos should have a decent starting point for these tactics. However, Death will win the grind.

 

[Lizerd]

Yeah, in fighting death I have learned that we always will lose the grind. However in the early game we have the advantage as saurus have better stats and the like. Really what I need is for them to pin down the main skeleton line for long enough while my carnosaurs can sneak in and kill the heroes as the skinks go around and seize objectives.

Say do you have any battle reports with death vs FoS?

 

[Ivor]

2000pt Kroak+Slann Mortal Wound Spam

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu

LEADERS:
Slann Starmaster (260)
- General
- Command Trait : Great Rememberer
- Artefact : Miasmatic Blade
Lord Kroak (430)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
- Artefact : Light of Dracothion
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (100)
- Artefact : Betrayer's Crown
Skink Starpriest (80)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Allies

UNITS:
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
-Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (90)
- Lance
3 x Razordons (120)


BATTALIONS:
Firelance Starhost (150)
Dracothion's Tail (80)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN:
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Everblaze Comet (100)

TOTAL: 1970/2000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 2
WOUNDS: 87

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I am very interested in a kroak/slann list since casting MW seems very appealing to me.
Do you think having the Knight-Incantor + Everblaze is worth it though? The Knight-Incantor is not buffed by the Astrolith or by the Slann's spell enhancements right?
I was thinking maybe replacing that combo with an additional starpriest plus Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws.
Also have you considered not using Dracothion's Tail but shadowstrike instead?
I get that DT allows you to always go first, but with shadowstrike kroak could blow up any screens before characters and the rippers could then "rip in"?