Tutorial Matched Play List GHB2019

[Canas]

except those "bad armies" do show. just like in magic you will have three types of players: the Timmy, Johnny and the Spike. when Johnny is not going to go to tournaments because he is all about fun with big grand things, but Spike and Timmy will. Spike will always switch to whatever is the most powerful, highest win rate at the time, with no loyalty to a faction(s), but Timmy... the Timmy players WILL stick with n army they like to try and "prove" they are worth playing, to break the meta, or prove they themselves can win without using the established best army.

Timmys cause Spikes to have 80% win rates. sometimes.... Timmy's have 80% win rates because they found a niche that works COUNTER to the current meta.

That'd make warhammer incredibly unique as generally speaking Timmy's won't show up to competitive high level tournaments (at least not in significant numbers) simply because getting crushed most of the time ain't much fun, no matter how much you like that army. Competitive high level tournaments are precisely the enviroment that attracts Spike's and chases away Timmy's. Timmy's tend to gravitate towards lower levels of play as at least they'l score some occasional wins (or at least don't unceremoniously get crushed so they can actually attempt to figure out something that resembles effective). Don't get me wrong there'l be those who'l insist on playing a certain way, but 1) they'l be rare, and 2) unless they're terribly masochistic they'l usually at least stick with stuff that vaguely works, and no matter how much you want to prove this army is worth playing, at a certain point you'l have to admit defeat...

Either warhammer has a weird variant of Timmy which for whatever reason doesn't care that they constantly get unceremoniously crushed. Or warhammer somehow manages to create armies that despite having a 80%+ loss-rate manage to have increadibly close games, thus keeping the promise of victory alive if Timmy could only figure out how to pull off this one thing (and even then, there are limits to losing too many times in a row)

That, or warhammer has a weirdly large population of Timmy's and few Spike's in it's competitive scene, so despite Spike having an 80% winrate the Timmy's are in the 40-60% area since they mostly just end up playing other Timmy's and come across relativly few Spike's that table them in half a turn.

I mean, it's possible, but seems very unlikely and I've never seen it happen anywhere else.

 

[LizardWizard]

That'd make warhammer incredibly unique as generally speaking Timmy's won't show up to competitive high level tournaments

Timmys beat Spikes all the time. And even high level tournaments are half Spikes and half Timmys. I love Seraphon. I play Seraphon every chance I get. I know other armies are stronger. I still do well at tournaments with Seraphon.

A lot of Spikes are chasing wins and assume their army is the problem and not their play. Just because the army is strong doesn't mean the player is competent. Even at big events. This is why net listing gets a bad rep. A lot of people who are chasing wins will see a list that preformed well, buy it, and then take it to an event. If you get to play against these people and you are good at the game you will win.

 

[Canas]

Timmys beat Spikes all the time.

If timmy beats Spike all the time then how did we end up with a winrate of 80% for Spike and a winrate of 20% for Timmy?

And even high level tournaments are half Spikes and half Timmys. I love Seraphon. I play Seraphon every chance I get. I know other armies are stronger. I still do well at tournaments with Seraphon.

Yes, others might be stronger, but seraphon ain't running around with a mere 20% win-rate either. Which is the point. If an average Timmy can get in some decent matches with his favorite army, doesn't suffer many crushing defeats and can manage a 30-40% winrate it remains interesting. If he constantly gets tabled and only really wins if he comes up against another Timmy (or against a Spike he massivly outclasses) it won't be fun for long.

 

[LizardWizard]

If timmy beats Spike all the time then how did we end up with a winrate of 80% for Spike and a winrate of 20% for Timmy?

Cause Timmy and Spike are individual players. The total sum doesn't have to equal 100%. Some Timmys might be 80% some might be 25%. Same goes for Spikes.

Yes, others might be stronger, but seraphon ain't running around with a mere 20% win-rate either. Which is the point. If an average Timmy can get in some decent matches with his favorite army, doesn't suffer many crushing defeats and can manage a 30-40% winrate it remains interesting. If he constantly gets tabled and only really wins if he comes up against another Timmy (or against a Spike he massivly outclasses) it won't be fun for long.

AoS is extremely well balanced at the moment. This is largely due to the battleplans being overall well constructed. There're a few armies that are a bit too over tuned and few that are under tuned. That being said. KO, which is considered one of the worst armies in the game, made it into the top 10 at this recent Warhammer Fest. This means Spikes have a smaller advantage over Timmys than most other games.

Index armies are pretty bad atm though. Legions of Azgor and Wanders are the only index army that makes a consistent good showing to my knowledge.

 

[Canas]

Cause Timmy and Spike are individual players. The total sum doesn't have to equal 100%. Some Timmys might be 80% some might be 25%. Same goes for Spikes.

Fair enough, still shouldn't happen if they go to tournaments of appropriate level (with the exception of certain formats I guess) but that's a different matter. Also, fairly certain that somewhere along the way winrates of individual players & armies as a whole got mixed up in here. Ah well.

AoS is extremely well balanced at the moment. This is largely due to the battleplans being overall well constructed. There're a few armies that are a bit too over tuned and few that are under tuned. That being said. KO, which is considered one of the worst armies in the game, made it into the top 10 at this recent Warhammer Fest. This means Spikes have a smaller advantage over Timmys than most other games.

It helps that it's one of the few games where wiping the floor with an enemy to the point they won't be able to score any points is relativly difficult due to how battleplans are set up as long as both players are halfway capable. Even something silly like the pure skink handler list posted on here a while back is probably going to score some points in most scenario's even when facing proper opponents.

The amount of dice involved probably also helps. It helps average things out, so you're less likely to utterly crush an opponent in one go due to every single one of his save's failing. But it also means there's enough chances to try and actually wound an opponent that you at least have the potential of hurting it. Something like 10 Skinks isnn't likely to kill anything, but the potential of 10 wounds does mean occasionally they will. And needlessly overextending does mean sooner or later that'l happen.

 

[ILKAIN]

Fair enough, still shouldn't happen if they go to tournaments of appropriate level (with the exception of certain formats I guess) but that's a different matter. Also, fairly certain that somewhere along the way winrates of individual players & armies as a whole got mixed up in here. Ah well.


It helps that it's one of the few games where wiping the floor with an enemy to the point they won't be able to score any points is relativly difficult due to how battleplans are set up as long as both players are halfway capable. Even something silly like the pure skink handler list posted on here a while back is probably going to score some points in most scenario's even when facing proper opponents.

The amount of dice involved probably also helps. It helps average things out, so you're less likely to utterly crush an opponent in one go due to every single one of his save's failing. But it also means there's enough chances to try and actually wound an opponent that you at least have the potential of hurting it. Something like 10 Skinks isnn't likely to kill anything, but the potential of 10 wounds does mean occasionally they will. And needlessly overextending does mean sooner or later that'l happen.

I think we converted him @LizardWizard lol

 

[LizardWizard]

Tournaments are surrounded by a miasma of inaccuracies. There seems to be the notion that all the top tables are WAC players. From my experience the WAC players don't actually make it to day two. They lose one game and then drop because they only showed up to prove they were the best. The reason they are WAC is because they don't win with out it. These are the players that chase the wins and switch armies every month assuming it is GW's fault they didn't climb to their deserved podium.

Most of the players who pay to go to big events do so because they love playing AoS. This is not to say that people at MTs aren't trying to win. However, the idea that all the games are serious and cut throat just isn't true. We laugh and joke as much as the Johnnys. Even the majority of the Spikes are pleasant to play. And some of the Spikes are Timmys in disguise because the army they happen to love turned out to be meta. Looking at all those long time Skaven collectors.

 

[Canas]

Tournaments are surrounded by a miasma of inaccuracies. There seems to be the notion that all the top tables are WAC players. From my experience the WAC players don't actually make it to day two. They lose one game and then drop because they only showed up to prove they were the best. The reason they are WAC is because they don't win with out it. These are the players that chase the wins and switch armies every month assuming it is GW's fault they didn't climb to their deserved podium.

Most of the players who pay to go to big events do so because they love playing AoS. This is not to say that people at MTs aren't trying to win. However, the idea that all the games are serious and cut throat just isn't true. We laugh and joke as much as the Johnnys. Even the majority of the Spikes are pleasant to play. And some of the Spikes are Timmys in disguise because the army they happen to love turned out to be meta. Looking at all those long time Skaven collectors.

I think warhammer (or AoS at least) might be quite unique in this aspect then, quite a lot less focus on the competitive side and far more friendly towards the Timmy's than other games. While enabling the Spike's a lot less. Or at least, I don't think I've ever played a game where the Spike's didn't utterly dominate the scene once you went into the more competitive side of things. Which usually ended up spiraling, since Spike's dominate the game gets tailored to their wishes, causing them to become even more dominant, and so on. There'l Always be some others left, but the Spike's nearly Always seem to be the dominant group.

Also, what's WAC and MT?

I think we converted him @LizardWizard lol

Converted, nah fairly certain at this point we're simply talking about a (slightly) different aspect than what we started with.

 

[LizardWizard]

Also, what's WAC and MT?

WAC is win at all cost. This normally means blatant cheating, rules lawyering to slow the game down, slow play to run the clock out, "bumping" models before a measurement, ect. They are the spikiest Spikes and no one in the community likes them except for other WACs.

MT is part of the ITC. It stand for Major Tournament. They are multiple day events with 5-6 matches per player and require 50+ players to participate. Think LVO, Adepticon, Rosecity Open, ect. GTs are Grand Tournaments and they are also frequently multi-day events but normally are 5 or less matches and are only defined by having more than 40 players.

 

[ILKAIN]

I think warhammer (or AoS at least) might be quite unique in this aspect then, quite a lot less focus on the competitive side and far more friendly towards the Timmy's than other games. While enabling the Spike's a lot less. Or at least, I don't think I've ever played a game where the Spike's didn't utterly dominate the scene once you went into the more competitive side of things. Which usually ended up spiraling, since Spike's dominate the game gets tailored to their wishes, causing them to become even more dominant, and so on. There'l Always be some others left, but the Spike's nearly Always seem to be the dominant group.

Also, what's WAC and MT?


Converted, nah fairly certain at this point we're simply talking about a (slightly) different aspect than what we started with.

AOS is singular in the variety of ways in which a "win" can occur. MAGIC has basically 2. reduce opponents life total to zero, or reduce their deck to zero called "milling" after the card "mill stone" which was one of the first ways in which to provide this win method. and the VAST majority of decks revolve around reducing life total to 0. so effectively one way (at the competitive level) which allows players to build for that method. but when you play AOS you have to build somewhat balanced list for the variety of battleplans and method for building victory points. because even the most alpha killy army can get screwed in battle plans like places of power if you get one point, nuke their wizards/artifacts while they decimate your army, and then they are incapable of scoring any more points....

 

[Canas]

AOS is singular in the variety of ways in which a "win" can occur. MAGIC has basically 2. reduce opponents life total to zero, or reduce their deck to zero called "milling" after the card "mill stone" which was one of the first ways in which to provide this win method. and the VAST majority of decks revolve around reducing life total to 0. so effectively one way (at the competitive level) which allows players to build for that method. but when you play AOS you have to build somewhat balanced list for the variety of battleplans and method for building victory points. because even the most alpha killy army can get screwed in battle plans like places of power if you get one point, nuke their wizards/artifacts while they decimate your army, and then they are incapable of scoring any more points....

Varied objectives, which you don't necesarly know before playing do help with that yeah.

 

[Womboski]

Also the amount of time and effort to get an army tournament ready discourages changing armies every balance change. So unless you have unlimited money or free time to get the army bought, built and painted it's much easier to stick it out with 1 or 2 factions.

Unlike magic where you literally just buy the cards online and boom ready to go.(of course certain magic cards can be stupid expensive)

Warhammer is a special breed of competition. Some people spend years or even decades collecting and painting their army. Magic decks come and go. I've always said warhammer is a long haul hobby.

It's important to remember a lot of people find it outrageous to spend $30-$60 on tiny plastic miniatures and we buy them by the bucketload. So I would say Warhammer is clearly not about winning but the hobby as a whole.

 

[Xiuhtecuhtli]

@LizardWizard I know you're still theory-crafting, but noticed you dropped the Razordons completely from your Fangs of Sotek list in favour of buffing spells and 10 skinks. What's the reasoning?

Also, how crucial is the Skink Starpriest in Fangs of Sotek, is he mostly just there to give the Saurus Spears -1 to hit?

Thanks so much!

 

[LizardWizard]

@LizardWizard I know you're still theory-crafting, but noticed you dropped the Razordons completely from your Fangs of Sotek list in favour of buffing spells and 10 skinks. What's the reasoning?

Also, how crucial is the Skink Starpriest in Fangs of Sotek, is he mostly just there to give the Saurus Spears -1 to hit?

Thanks so much!

It was due to points changes. Razordons are still fantastic.

The Skink Starpriest does a few things. It provides Summon Starlight and the Serpents Staff for the Oldblood Carno.

 

[LizardWizard]

1000pt Sunclaw Starhost

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran

LEADERS:
Skink Starpriest (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
- Artefact : Incandescent Rectrices
- Spell : Meteoric Convocation
Saurus Sunblood (120)
- Artefact : Ghyrstrike

UNITS:
40 x Saurus Warriors (330)
- Spears
10 x Saurus Warriors (90)
- Clubs
10 x Saurus Warriors (90)
- Clubs
3 x Razordons (120)
3 x Skink Handlers (40)

BATTALIONS:
Sunclaw Starhost (130)

TOTAL: 1000/1000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
WOUNDS: 83

Return to Index

 

[LizardWizard]

1000pt Eternal Starhost

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Mortal Realm: Ghur

LEADERS:
Skink Starpriest (80)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Star Rituals
- Artefact : Gryph-Feather Charm
- Spell : Meteoric Convocation
Saurus Eternity Warden (140)
- Artefact: Rockjaws

UNITS:
10 x Saurus Guard (160)
10 x Saurus Guard (160)
10 x Saurus Guard (160)
3 x Razordons (120)

BATTALIONS:
Eternal Starhost (150)

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN:
Prismatic Palisade (30)

TOTAL: 1000/1000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
WOUNDS: 50

Return to Index

 

[Lizerd]

I actually would like to point something out here. You could theoretically equip a sunblood with a sword of judgment. With a potential for over 5 attacks that’s a pretty solid option on that many attacks. Or I could be totally wrong, only testing would conclude the idea.

Either way two solid lists, and I would love to see them used in a battle

 

[Acehilator]

The Eternal Starhost list has an error (Starpriest Spell)

Any thoughts on leaving some points left over to try to get a triumph instead of filling it with an Endless Spell? Especially when only running one wizard?

 

[Lizerd]

Actually the use of the palisade seems pretty potent. The fact that the guards need to brace to get off their attacks mean they will be on the defensive, so debuffing enemy units has a lot of potential. With Melee heavy armies that can only charge and attack, this means that their incoming attacks will be next to useless, and the counter attack form the guard will be much more formidable.

 

[LizardWizard]

The Eternal Starhost list has an error (Starpriest Spell)

Thanks. Fixed it!

With Melee heavy armies that can only charge and attack, this means that their incoming attacks will be next to useless, and the counter attack form the guard will be much more formidable.

That was my line of thinking as well. I do like triumphs, but only about 1/3 of them are worth 30MPP to me at 1k.