8th Ed. Lunch? Eat your greens - My Force for Orcs/Goblins

[Karnus]

Oh, so first off I definitely think the existing rules clearly indicate that every enemy within 12, 18 or 24 inches are affected in all directions.

I'd have to talk to them about affecting units in combat...

But worth a try, thanks!

No worries! I don’t know on what premise it’s ok to accept that it works as a bubble but not in combat, all or nothing surely!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

No worries! I don’t know on what premise it’s ok to accept that it works as a bubble but not in combat, all or nothing surely!

I know....

I think there should be a further clarification to affect all enemy models... I mean it’s a spell that wiped out all daemonic forces for crying out loud! Surely even an echo of it should be able to differentiate between lizardmen and enemies!!!

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

There is the classic “unless otherwise stated” clause. What does “all enemies” mean? I use this (section 19.4) FAQ from the ETC to support my argument:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F6qQpGqsDjizrWCps3EJemQPfZGkzgaUU6RkMI1hDQ/pub#h.j89jy6kwa6a3

While not an official FAQ the decision of ETC judges do hold a lot of weight in my opinion. Not only that but my games group agree that Lord Kroak would be useless with the spell in it’s neutered form (all unengaged units in a cone in front of the caster)

I agree with this, and it would be how I'd play it myself, it's just unfortunate that it is not clear exactly how it works, as the wording is ambiguous enough to be able to fit with more than one interpretation.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I agree with this, and it would be how I'd play it myself, it's just unfortunate that it is not clear exactly how it works, as the wording is ambiguous enough to be able to fit with more than one interpretation.

True. Maybe not for other spells, but for Lord Kroak I think they should have made it more specific.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

While not an official FAQ the decision of ETC judges do hold a lot of weight in my opinion.

Personally, I've always felt differently. To me they are just gamers like you or I. That said, I have also spoken to quite a few people who feel as you do.

Not only that but my games group agree

That is the key. If you your group is in agreement, then that is the perfect way to play it. In the end Warhammer is just a very large game, and it leaves a lot of room for interpretation. As long as your group sees it one way and everyone is happy with that interpretation, go with it!

Oh, so first off I definitely think the existing rules clearly indicate that every enemy within 12, 18 or 24 inches are affected in all directions.

That is exactly the way I play it as well.

I don’t know on what premise it’s ok to accept that it works as a bubble but not in combat, all or nothing surely!

I read the line "The Deliverance of Itaz is a direct damage spell that targets all enemy units within 12" to mean that it is played as a bubble effect. That is typically the same language utilized to describe other spells cast as a bubble. The typical language used for non-bubble spells is frequently denoted by the term "range", i.e. it has a range of 12", etc.

However, that is only my interpretation, and I can definitely see how people can interpret it in various ways. It is not particularly clear one way or another. It can easily be interpreted at one end of the spectrum or the other... or somewhere in the middle.

I agree with this, and it would be how I'd play it myself, it's just unfortunate that it is not clear exactly how it works, as the wording is ambiguous enough to be able to fit with more than one interpretation.

Almost like GW should have left us with FAQ before burning the game to the ground.

 

[Karnus]

Let’s face it, even in the form I suggest it’s not enough to make You take Kroak over a regular slann every time, more of a novelty choice that you have to plan your entire army around.

Almost like GW should have left us with FAQ before burning the game to the ground.

Here’s hoping the old world gives us something to look forward to

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Let’s face it, even in the form I suggest it’s not enough to make You take Kroak over a regular slann every time, more of a novelty choice that you have to plan your entire army around.

Still pretty fun to play with. And that's the entire point.

Unfortunately, odds are with Nightbringer that TOW will be a entirely new game, with new models and not able to use 8th edition models (or earlier).

If I'm wrong, I will be perfectly happy to eat my hat, a crow or any other idiomatic meal that I need to eat!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Let’s face it, even in the form I suggest it’s not enough to make You take Kroak over a regular slann every time, more of a novelty choice that you have to plan your entire army around.

To be fair, even the way I play it (bubble cast but not into combat), Kroak is still a solid choice if you build a list around him. Not overpowered by any stretch, but a decent choice.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so I finally have a free date where my friend is free too!!!

14 August... still weeks away but at least something.

So now I'm reworking my list in a new unit of time.

I'd like to do Kroak plus a SV BSB with the Skavenpelt Banner (I can't get the idea of -1 to hit, frenzied S5 attacks with PF)

Does anyone have any experience with scar vets? I just have a concern that with 2 wounds they will just get killed off rapidly (even with a 1+ save from CO, Light Armour and shield).

Any advice?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Okay, so I have revised my list:

Lord Kroak
OB, CO, Armour of Destiny, GW
OB, CO, LA, GW, Talisman of Preservation
SV, BSB, Skavenpelt Bner, CO, LA, GW
SV, CO, GW, Armour of Fortune
Skink Priest, Cloak of Feathers
Skink Priest

30 Saurus Unit
5 units of 10 Skink Skirmishers
1 unit of 10 Skink Cohort

17 TG, Banner of Eternal Flame

2 Ancient Stegadons with Giant Blowpipes
2 units of 1 Salamanders

-

My idea is to have one SV with each Saurus/TG unit, the BSB with the TG so I have a frenzied, flaming attack unit at -1 to hit because of Kroak.

Then the OB's are either mobile or one in each as well (depending on what I end up facing)

Use the Skirmishers to draw out Mangler Squigs, fanatics, kill Snotling pump wagons and harass units. As needed be charge redirectors.

Use Salamanders and Stegadons on each flank to break it between missile fire, panic from flame throwing and charging with impact hits/terror then they swing inwards.

They would have the two infantry units on their inside to take advantage of the chaos.

The Skink Priests will use the cover of the skirmishers to get close to Kroak bomb his troops, then cloak of feathers to jump over the front lines and contine Kroak bombing from there.

Any comments welcome (and invited as I love working my lists over)

@NIGHTBRINGER @Scalenex @airjamy @Imrahil @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl @ASSASSIN_NR_1 @Tk'ya'pyk @Killer Angel @Warden and anyone else who reads this thread!!!

 

[Scalenex]

Mahrlect, I would have figured you'd have played against the Orcs and Goblins by now...

The list is fairly balanced. Though somewhat unorthodox. Risky, but not crazy. Maybe that's a good idea. Lizardmen versus Orcs and Goblins is a fairly soft magic so if you are going to play test unorthodox strategies it's probably safer to try new strategies against Orcs and Goblins than against Warriors of Chaos (who force us to bring our A-game).

First, giving a Scar Veteran a magical BSB is a bit unorthodox because that makes the BSB a bit vulnerable but the banner's bonus might be worth it, I don't know. It's unlikely that your opponent will try this, but since your BSB is on a Cold One and is presumably going to be in your Saurus or TG block, he is not going to benefit from "look out sir!" which means he could theoretically be one-shot at a distance from a rock lobber or doom diver. Note that Rock Lobbers and Doom Divers are not the most accurate weapons out there, but the possibility of an ignominious death for your BSB is on the table.

Second, 17 Temple Guard is a bit of a small size for a Temple Guard bunker, especially given that your list does not have much defensive magic in it.

Third, you have a lot of characters for this points size. Maybe that's a good thing. You should be able to outclass most orc characters you face and a lot of Orc and Goblin units rely on the power of their characters. Maybe it's a bad thing given that I'm pretty sure the fact that you have four Saurus cowboys and 17 Temple Guard is linked. The points for the extra Sauri had to come from somewhere.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Mahrlect, I would have figured you'd have played against the Orcs and Goblins by now...

The list is fairly balanced. Though somewhat unorthodox. Risky, but not crazy. Maybe that's a good idea. Lizardmen versus Orcs and Goblins is a fairly soft magic so if you are going to play test unorthodox strategies it's probably safer to try new strategies against Orcs and Goblins than against Warriors of Chaos (who force us to bring our A-game).

First, giving a Scar Veteran a magical BSB is a bit unorthodox because that makes the BSB a bit vulnerable but the banner's bonus might be worth it, I don't know. It's unlikely that your opponent will try this, but since your BSB is on a Cold One and is presumably going to be in your Saurus or TG block, he is not going to benefit from "look out sir!" which means he could theoretically be one-shot at a distance from a rock lobber or doom diver. Note that Rock Lobbers and Doom Divers are not the most accurate weapons out there, but the possibility of an ignominious death for your BSB is on the table.

Second, 17 Temple Guard is a bit of a small size for a Temple Guard bunker, especially given that your list does not have much defensive magic in it.

Third, you have a lot of characters for this points size. Maybe that's a good thing. You should be able to outclass most orc characters you face and a lot of Orc and Goblin units rely on the power of their characters. Maybe it's a bad thing given that I'm pretty sure the fact that you have four Saurus cowboys and 17 Temple Guard is linked. The points for the extra Sauri had to come from somewhere.

Yes, mahrlect is the right word between lockdown, work and increased family obligations it just hasn't gotten together... I'm praying nothing gets in the way of the 13 August appointment

Anyways, maybe I should go back to my original list...

I just hate the fact that my TG unit is going to get munted A LOT as they have a 4+ save which between a he'll of a lot of troops with strength 4 or choppas whill basically make that non-existent and they will be dying in droves...

Then I figured I would try out Lord Kroak, both for the repeat Kroak bomb and for the -1 to hit for his unit.

I could run the same list with no CO's and a Slann who is BSB I guess. I totally agree with you that the BSB is vunerable and I can't even give him a ward save...

I think the sensible thing to do (and which still enables me to try Skavenpelt with my TG unit) is go back to the original idea of Slann rather than Kroak. I'll look that over and come again.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

What did you think of my strategy though?

Workable?

I have a lot of information and ideas, but honestly am lacking the wisdom that comes from extensive playing as it's so infrequent...

I feel like it should work:

1) Skink units take care of Fanatics, Mangler Squigs and Pump Wagons, otherwise harass enemy infantry

2) Steg and Salamanders to hit sides hard

3) Infantry use this to engage choice units

4) while surviving Skinks redirect those I don't want to hit.

The idea being that I want two heavy hitting infantry units and I want to choose the fights.

Currently thinking 2 Old Bloods, 1 in TG unit and 1 in a CO Bus of 6 to work with the Sauri unit.

 

[Scalenex]

Anyways, maybe I should go back to my original list...

Yes, you are going to drive yourself (and me) crazy constantly second guessing your list. Your playing a casual game, no money or trophies are involved. Stick with your original list, or your second list.

What did you think of my strategy though?

Workable?

In theory yes, in practice no. Assuming you are talking about your Kroak list. Your strategy is based around Lord Kroak's mighty power but he only has 17 Temple Guard. If you are going to put all your eggs in one basket, support the basket with 26+ TG.

Whatever list you go with, after all this discussion I hope to see a battle report...

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Yes, you are going to drive yourself (and me) crazy constantly second guessing your list. Your playing a casual game, no money or trophies are involved. Stick with your original list, or your second list.



In theory yes, in practice no. Assuming you are talking about your Kroak list. Your strategy is based around Lord Kroak's mighty power but he only has 17 Temple Guard. If you are going to put all your eggs in one basket, support the basket with 26+ TG.

Whatever list you go with, after all this discussion I hope to see a battle report...

Oh, believe me, there will be a mahrlecting, mahrlect-mahrlect battle report.

I'll stop driving you crazy

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I'm going to agree with Scalenex, 17 TG is very much on the low side if you are banking on Kroak, especially since you won't get as much out of the -1 to hit.
You say that you are a bit afraid that the TG will die in droves, well with that -1 to hit all units, baring characters and unit champions will be hitting them on 5+, that takes quite a bit of the damage. Besides, they don't have to worry about goblins in CC, far as I know, so it's mostly just orc big'uns or black orcs, and they all have Initiative 2 just as the TG, so maybe this is a matchup where the Bastiladon with Solar Engine's +1I might come in handy; Keep it close and you wills strike first, and hopefully you will have wittled some of their units down before combat. Furthermore, Kroaks spell hits at S4, and Orcs are generally not heavily armored, so you could very well deal some damage with it.

I also think the BSB on a cold one is a bit risky, personally I would have him on foot, and I'd go with a shield in place of a GW, just to have him as well protected as possible, besides I think S5 is enough, unless you are fighting characters or monsters, but that should not be the BSB's job.

 

[airjamy]

I agree that 17 TG is small, too small tbh. I am also more of a fan of the GW, Gamblers Armor, Dawnstone, CO build on the Oldblood (instead of the Amulet of Preservation build, as that only gives you a 2+ save). That build is also just better than the Armor of fortune build i would say, a 1+ rerollable 6++ is just stronger than 3+ not rerollable and 5++, unless you are very scared of Doomdivers. I also think you are very character heavy, why are you running 2 Oldblood while you could run 2 Scarvets? I would say that the biggest advantage Oldbloods give is the 100 pts magic item limit or Carnosaurs, neither of which you are using. I also think that with Kroak, you maybe only could use 1 Skink Priest, 2 is definitely overkill. I get the Kroakbombing idea, but if that's the plan, you should give them items to fly, i think the one guy with the Feathered Cloak is a better investment next to the one footslogging one, especially if he does not have a Dispel Scroll.

With the reduction on characters, you could beef up your unit of TG, i would aim for around 25. If you have more space you could go to 4 salamanders in 2 units of 2, which i think would also really benefit you against the greens.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I agree that 17 TG is small, too small tbh. I am also more of a fan of the GW, Gamblers Armor, Dawnstone, CO build on the Oldblood (instead of the Amulet of Preservation build, as that only gives you a 2+ save). That build is also just better than the Armor of fortune build i would say, a 1+ rerollable 6++ is just stronger than 3+ not rerollable and 5++, unless you are very scared of Doomdivers. I also think you are very character heavy, why are you running 2 Oldblood while you could run 2 Scarvets? I would say that the biggest advantage Oldbloods give is the 100 pts magic item limit or Carnosaurs, neither of which you are using. I also think that with Kroak, you maybe only could use 1 Skink Priest, 2 is definitely overkill. I get the Kroakbombing idea, but if that's the plan, you should give them items to fly, i think the one guy with the Feathered Cloak is a better investment next to the one footslogging one, especially if he does not have a Dispel Scroll.

With the reduction on characters, you could beef up your unit of TG, i would aim for around 25. If you have more space you could go to 4 salamanders in 2 units of 2, which i think would also really benefit you against the greens.

Thanks and great points.

I can do character reorganisation. Just for the record, the amulet of preservation guy (with LA and CO) has a 1+ save..

I have a thing about the Scar-Vets to be honest. The two wounds points seems to make them too flimsy, as if my investment of points could be eaten up in one combat and that's it.

Somehow I am a bit stuck on using the OB's with their 3 wounds, which is obviously just 1 more but does seem a lot hardier everything considered (and gives me a better chance of being able to heal him when I cast the regen spells on the Slann's unit with the lore benefit).

Thoughts?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I agree that 17 TG is small, too small tbh. I am also more of a fan of the GW, Gamblers Armor, Dawnstone, CO build on the Oldblood (instead of the Amulet of Preservation build, as that only gives you a 2+ save). That build is also just better than the Armor of fortune build i would say, a 1+ rerollable 6++ is just stronger than 3+ not rerollable and 5++, unless you are very scared of Doomdivers. I also think you are very character heavy, why are you running 2 Oldblood while you could run 2 Scarvets? I would say that the biggest advantage Oldbloods give is the 100 pts magic item limit or Carnosaurs, neither of which you are using. I also think that with Kroak, you maybe only could use 1 Skink Priest, 2 is definitely overkill. I get the Kroakbombing idea, but if that's the plan, you should give them items to fly, i think the one guy with the Feathered Cloak is a better investment next to the one footslogging one, especially if he does not have a Dispel Scroll.

With the reduction on characters, you could beef up your unit of TG, i would aim for around 25. If you have more space you could go to 4 salamanders in 2 units of 2, which i think would also really benefit you against the greens.

And Scar-Vets can take a Carnosaur mount per the army book... Not sure what you meant by that being the advantage for the OB?

And on that note, I didn't take a Carnosaur as I foresee him being bogged down in a tarpit, which is what happened the last time I ran one...

Any thoughts or recommended tactics for that?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Okay, so I have revised my list:

Lord Kroak
OB, CO, Armour of Destiny, GW
OB, CO, LA, GW, Talisman of Preservation
SV, BSB, Skavenpelt Bner, CO, LA, GW
SV, CO, GW, Armour of Fortune
Skink Priest, Cloak of Feathers
Skink Priest

30 Saurus Unit
5 units of 10 Skink Skirmishers
1 unit of 10 Skink Cohort

17 TG, Banner of Eternal Flame

2 Ancient Stegadons with Giant Blowpipes
2 units of 1 Salamanders

Most of what I'm going to suggest has already been mentioned, but here goes:

• The Temple Guard unit is way too small in my mind. With so much character support spent on the unit (Kroak and I'm assuming the BSB with the Skavenpelt banner), you don't have the numbers to take advantage of it. If you're going to create a deathstar-type unit, it might as well be a real deathstar. That unit is the center point of your entire army so you need the bodies to be able to soak up damage and deal with the most dangerous threats of the opposing army. If it were me, I'd beef up that unit to at least 30-35 models.
• Banner of Eternal Flame is risky. Great if you face trolls or fight in a building, but awful if you come up against Dragonbane Gem or Dragonhelm wearing characters. It makes them essentially immune to your unit (including any Saurus characters you might deposit in the unit as they have mundane weapons, so they too would be flaming).
• That's A LOT of points spent on characters. The rest of your army seems a little bit thin as a result.
• Personally, I'm not a fan of the Skavenpelt banner. Too many points, especially since frenzy can be both lost and has downsides.
• Giving a Scar-Vet BSB a magic standard leaves him very vulnerable (and you won't even have a LoS roll to protect him). Orcs & Goblins can actually field a fairly effective little artillery gunline.
• The placement of the BSB will be tricky. I'm assuming you mean to supercharge the Kroak+TG unit. That makes sense offensively, but is a bit counter intuitive in terms of the BSB's primary function (re-rolling leadership tests). The Kroak unit is the one unit that doesn't need the re-roll, so you'll have to ensure that your other units are within the bubble to take advantage of it. I'm not saying it can't work, but you'll have to be very mindful of it throughout the game.

• The Salamanders are solid. They should do exceptionally well against the typically very large (and lightly armoured) units that a horde army like O&G can field.
• The Skirmishers will be useful for the reasons you suggested and hunting down war machines. Their war machines aren't exactly Dwarven but they are very cheap and can be very effective on mass. You don't want 6 spear Chukkas (only 210 points total) firing into your Stegadons.