8th Ed. Lunch? Eat your greens - My Force for Orcs/Goblins

[airjamy]

Okay, thanks everyone for chipping in on this. Very helpful.

On magic, I've been reading a bunch of @Scalenex 's threads on building armies around lores, which are best for what, etc.

I think High Magic isn't going to do me any favors here.

Apart from a Giant, I don't think I'll be seeing any big monsters. I think I'll mostly be confronted with a LOT of troops, Squigs, Manglers, etc.

He'll know that I've got a bunch of shooty type stuff, so he'll move in and try to surround each of my units. I don't have the troops to prevent that so it seems like I need to use skinks and Salamanders to attack his flanks, while I keep the Stegs, 2 Sauri blocks and the TG in the middle, keeping them back a bit so that the giant Blowpipes, Cham Skinks and Terradon unit have a chance to thin the herd before we get into combat.

And then... magic. I'm tempted to do wandering deliberations as it's quite the toolbox. High Magic has the movement, WS increase and the nuke spell though...

Any suggestions?

I openly admit that I may be overthinking this. I also openly admit that I do like a good chew on a) making my army list and b) coming up with a good plan for my army list.

I will also admit it helps me with the periods when I can't play due to time and lack of opponents. So thanks for helping me out with this.

Well have'nt we all been there, overthinking 8th because of a lack of local opponents. I would say that that is around 95% of my interaction with Warhammer nowadays XD.

I think Scalanex is right though that you are overthinking it, High Magic is IMHO never bad, even if you just consider the swapping out spells stuff, and Walk between Worlds and Fiery Convocation are generally just great, can't go wrong with the lore.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Fair enough. Thanks @Scalenex @airjamy

Will stick with HM as the toolbox lore then.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Having tinkered a LOT with the list, I have come up with the following. Any advice is welcome (although I may play the list anyways just for kicks ):

Right, so basic game plan is hold a solid center with the Saurus/OB units, cover one flank with Salamanders/Chamo Skinks, try to redirect charges/force charges with the Skink Cohorts (or sacrifice to draw out fanatics), use Chamo Skinks to neutralize Mangler Squigs and potentially Fanatics, use both Stegs on one side to break the flank followed by the M5 TG unit with Slann as a deathstar to charge flank, then swing in to the middle.

All combat units cause Fear/Terror and Salamanders cause panic tests on shooting so as to force as many leadership tests as possible.

Obviously plan will change on the fly depending on how he deploys, but I'm fairly confident that I have my bases covered to deal with what he brings to the table.

Slann: (High Magic) Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Channeling Staff, BSB, Skavenpelt Banner‎
OB: Armour of Destiny, GW, CO
OB: Talisman of Preservation, GW, CO

1 x Skink Priest

2 x 28 Saurus, SB, M
2 x 10 Skinks

1 x 26 Temple Guard, SB, M, Banner of Swiftness
1 x Revered Guardian, Shrieking Blade
4 x 5 Chamo Skinks

2 x Ancient Stegadons (Giant Blowpipes)
2 x Salamander



Should be fun to play if nothing else.

EDIT: hopefully a bunch of people are alerted to this thread being updated, but also would like @Imrahil, @ChapterAquila92

 

[Scalenex]

8 inches of the Night Goblin unit, but on it's side and over another unit so if he wants to target me he'll have to send it into his own forces...

An O&G general is never required to send a Fanatic into his own forces. They just have to launch the Fanatic when an enemy unit is within 8 inches.

I have used Chameleon Skinks and Terradon riders to trigger early releases of Goblin Fanatics hoping they would target the Chameleon Skinks or Terradons in the general direction of their support units only to find that he launches the Goblin Fanatics the opposite direction into an empty part of the battlefield.

You see, the O&G player gets to decide which part of the unit the Fanatics launch from and which direction they go the first round.

It's still a win for their opponent because launching a Fanatic into an empty portion of the field is better than launching into your Temple Guard, but it's not nearly as satisfying as sending it into a unit of goblin archers would be.

Your list is solid btw. Taking the Skavenpelt Banner is a little unorthodox but I cannot think any compelling reason not to do it other than I really love the Banner of Eternal Flame (as a troll killer). Though my usual opponents know I like that banner so they tend to give their general the Firebane gem....

 

[Lizards of Renown]

An O&G general is never required to send a Fanatic into his own forces. They just have to launch the Fanatic when an enemy unit is within 8 inches.

I have used Chameleon Skinks and Terradon riders to trigger early releases of Goblin Fanatics hoping they would target the Chameleon Skinks or Terradons in the general direction of their support units only to find that he launches the Goblin Fanatics the opposite direction into an empty part of the battlefield.

You see, the O&G player gets to decide which part of the unit the Fanatics launch from and which direction they go the first round.

It's still a win for their opponent because launching a Fanatic into an empty portion of the field is better than launching into your Temple Guard, but it's not nearly as satisfying as sending it into a unit of goblin archers would be.

Your list is solid btw. Taking the Skavenpelt Banner is a little unorthodox but I cannot think any compelling reason not to do it other than I really love the Banner of Eternal Flame (as a troll killer). Though my usual opponents know I like that banner so they tend to give their general the Firebane gem....

Thanks a lot.

I think the Skavenpelt Banner won't end up doing what I think it will, but I still love the idea of 3 S5 attacks per TG with PF.

There is nothing in the rules for the item saying that it never loses it's frenzy, so if it ends up losing combat theoretically I lose the ability...

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Scalenex]

There is nothing in the rules for the item saying that it never loses it's frenzy, so if it ends up losing combat theoretically I lose the ability...

Any thoughts on that?

As far as I know, your interpretation is correct. There is nothing in the wording of the magic item to suggest that it's special Frenzy.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

As far as I know, your interpretation is correct. There is nothing in the wording of the magic item to suggest that it's special Frenzy.

Yeah... I thought so. (Sigh) Disappointing. If it was like the Carnosaur Blood Frenzy then THAT would be a magic item. Ah well.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I’m thinking about fielding Lord Kroak instead of a Slann... but also with then a BSB in the unit to still give them Frenzy...

Thoughts anyone? I really, REALLY would like to have a Frenzied, -1 to hit TG....

But I’m undecided as my WD Slann could give them a 5+ regen save... as I can also see them dying in droves otherwise since their 4+ (in combat) save will most likely be going up against strength 4 or 5 (with Choppas) meaning it will be a 6+ save...

Aagh!

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I think Kroak could work against O&G; They are all relatively lightly armored so his damage can go through, furthermore they tend to field more units than other armies which also boosts Kroaks potential damage.
It tends to be the case that you are fairly even in WS, if I recall correctly, so the -1 to hit is nice, making it very hard for him to get damage through.

I think you should consider giving one of the Skink Priests the Cloak of Feathers, as it is very important for Kroak to cast through an Arcane Vassal to get the most out of his spell, and so you can get away with only casting the small version.

Another minor thing to remember is that your Temple Guard will cause Fear when Kroak is a part of the unit, so remember to make your opponent take those Fear tests, it would make that -1 to hit on top even more potent if he were to fail.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I think Kroak could work against O&G; They are all relatively lightly armored so his damage can go through, furthermore they tend to field more units than other armies which also boosts Kroaks potential damage.
It tends to be the case that you are fairly even in WS, if I recall correctly, so the -1 to hit is nice, making it very hard for him to get damage through.

I think you should consider giving one of the Skink Priests the Cloak of Feathers, as it is very important for Kroak to cast through an Arcane Vassal to get the most out of his spell, and so you can get away with only casting the small version.

Another minor thing to remember is that your Temple Guard will cause Fear when Kroak is a part of the unit, so remember to make your opponent take those Fear tests, it would make that -1 to hit on top even more potent if he were to fail.

Any advice on the ward or regen save?

Maybe I could do one Ancient Steg with EOTG to give them a ward save...

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

The 5+ regen is very nice, but since it is a spell you can't be certain it will go through. I'm also not sure if it would be worth it to use a lot of dice on it, but if you don't your opponent will probably save their dice for that, of they are in or going to be in combat with the Guard unit.

The Ward save from the EOTG is more an afterthought, it's nice, not bad but not something to be relied on, you simply won't save much.
The other abilities you get from the engine is not of much use either when you have Kroak, since the Arcane configuration is completely useless and the bound spell is mostly inferior to Kroaks own spell.
If you want some extra toughness on your Temple Guard, maybe a simple Skink beast caster will do, sicne if Kroak and the TG are in combat, maybe you won't get much use out of casting Kroak's spell anymore, so you might as well go for a wildform and just throw all your dice at it.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

The 5+ regen is very nice, but since it is a spell you can't be certain it will go through. I'm also not sure if it would be worth it to use a lot of dice on it, but if you don't your opponent will probably save their dice for that, of they are in or going to be in combat with the Guard unit.

The Ward save from the EOTG is more an afterthought, it's nice, not bad but not something to be relied on, you simply won't save much.
The other abilities you get from the engine is not of much use either when you have Kroak, since the Arcane configuration is completely useless and the bound spell is mostly inferior to Kroaks own spell.
If you want some extra toughness on your Temple Guard, maybe a simple Skink beast caster will do, sicne if Kroak and the TG are in combat, maybe you won't get much use out of casting Kroak's spell anymore, so you might as well go for a wildform and just throw all your dice at it.

Right. I get what you’re saying about the Steg 6++.... Drat. Seems like it’s even more in favour of the -1 to hit being best defensive factor I could have...

Kroak can still cast through Skink Priests so still useful even if in combat.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Kroak can still cast through Skink Priests so still useful even if in combat.

True, still often when one unit is in CC another is as well, making for fewer possible targets for his spell, which might make other spells more attractive to cast.
Just a note (you might very well know already, but just to be sure): Kroak can still cast his spell, without an Arcane Vassal, while in CC.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

True, still often when one unit is in CC another is as well, making for fewer possible targets for his spell, which might make other spells more attractive to cast.
Just a note (you might very well know already, but just to be sure): Kroak can still cast his spell, without an Arcane Vassal, while in CC.

Good point on more and more units getting into close combat.

I did know about the use of the spell while in combat, but thanks for mentioning it!

 

[Karnus]

Do you play so that Kroaks spell targets units already in close combat?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Do you play so that Kroaks spell targets units already in close combat?

No.

To be clear, from my understanding of the rules, if Kroak is in combat he cannot cast any spells (reference BRB wizards in combat). However, if an Arcane Vessel is not in combat, then the spell can still be cast through them.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Do you play so that Kroaks spell targets units already in close combat?

As a direct damage spell, I do not believe that The Deliverance of Itza spell can affect units engaged in close combat. Direct damage spells provide no exceptions to the general rule that "Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat".

To be clear, from my understanding of the rules, if Kroak is in combat he cannot cast any spells (reference BRB wizards in combat). However, if an Arcane Vessel is not in combat, then the spell can still be cast through them.

I believe that only applies to spells that are classed as Magic missiles. Under the targeting restrictions for magic missiles, on page 31 of the BRB, it states that: "Magic missiles cannot be cast at all if the Wizard (or his unit) is engaged in close combat". Kroak's Deliverance of Itza is a direct damage spell, which is not burdened by the same restriction.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I believe that only applies to spells that are classed as Magic missiles. Under the targeting restrictions for magic missiles, on page 31 of the BRB, it states that: "Magic missiles cannot be cast at all if the Wizard (or his unit) is engaged in close combat". Kroak's Deliverance of Itza is a direct damage spell, which is not burdened by the same restriction.

Nice. I'll re-read that section.

 

[Karnus]

No.

I think you should discuss this with your game group using the evidence I linked below

As a direct damage spell, I do not believe that The Deliverance of Itza spell can affect units engaged in close combat. Direct damage spells provide no exceptions to the general rule that "Wizards cannot target spells at units engaged in close combat".

There is the classic “unless otherwise stated” clause. What does “all enemies” mean? I use this (section 19.4) FAQ from the ETC to support my argument:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F6qQpGqsDjizrWCps3EJemQPfZGkzgaUU6RkMI1hDQ/pub#h.j89jy6kwa6a3

While not an official FAQ the decision of ETC judges do hold a lot of weight in my opinion. Not only that but my games group agree that Lord Kroak would be useless with the spell in it’s neutered form (all unengaged units in a cone in front of the caster)

 

[Lizards of Renown]

I think you should discuss this with your game group using the evidence I linked below



There is the classic “unless otherwise stated” clause. What does “all enemies” mean? I use this (section 19.4) FAQ from the ETC to support my argument:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F6qQpGqsDjizrWCps3EJemQPfZGkzgaUU6RkMI1hDQ/pub#h.j89jy6kwa6a3

While not an official FAQ the decision of ETC judges do hold a lot of weight in my opinion. Not only that but my games group agree that Lord Kroak would be useless with the spell in it’s neutered form (all unengaged units in a cone in front of the caster)

Oh, so first off I definitely think the existing rules clearly indicate that every enemy within 12, 18 or 24 inches are affected in all directions.

I'd have to talk to them about affecting units in combat...

But worth a try, thanks!