8th Ed. Lizardnewbie needs help

[Rogodal]

Hi Guys,

i started playing tabletop (WHF) a few months ago. And i choosed the Lizardmen for my first army.
After collecting a few models i started with the first games with friends. In our group we nearly have every army represented. But for now i only fighted against imperials, orcs, bretons and deamons and warriors of chaos, high elves.

...and i got my a.. kicked everytime till now...

Maybe there is already a thread somewhere i couldnt find, but my question is, what are our strongest models or combinations?
My impression after loosing few games is, that every other army is way better/stronger then the lizards.
I already looked many Army-Lists in this Forum but i still couldn't find my way to play and it starts to get frustrating.

I would be glad for every kind of help from some expierienced players or also some competitive army lists (around 1.500 to 4.000 Points)

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[Lizards of Renown]

First off, welcome to Jurassic Park!

I’m just about to go to bed, but for starters check out the first 5 or so threads on this part of the forum.

Will post more to you tomorrow.

 

[airjamy]

Hi Guys,

i started playing tabletop (WHF) a few months ago. And i choosed the Lizardmen for my first army.
After collecting a few models i started with the first games with friends. In our group we nearly have every army represented. But for now i only fighted against imperials, orcs, bretons and deamons and warriors of chaos, high elves.

...and i got my a.. kicked everytime till now...

Maybe there is already a thread somewhere i couldnt find, but my question is, what are our strongest models or combinations?
My impression after loosing few games is, that every other army is way better/stronger then the lizards.
I already looked many Army-Lists in this Forum but i still couldn't find my way to play and it starts to get frustrating.

I would be glad for every kind of help from some expierienced players or also some competitive army lists (around 1.500 to 4.000 Points)

Thanks a lot in advance!

Hi there! Welcome to the jungle! Fantasy 8th certainly is a tricky game, it is a game you can play intensely for years and still find you have plenty to learn. What list have you been playing, what in the game have you been struggling with? What army lists have your opponents been using? Some of the armies you mentioned are indeed very strong, most notable Warriors of Chaos, Daemons and High Elves, but Imperials Orcs and Bretonnia should be pretty beatable. Lizards certainly are not bad, we are rated as a solidly above average army.

When you want to get better, do focus on the fact that 8th is a movement based game. Deployment and the movement phase are the most important phases in the game, by far. If you deployed and moved well, everything will go swimmingly when doing damage. I would have to know more of your list, experience and your opponents if i am to give you any more in depth advice! If you really want to go deep, i would be open to play something like a training game on Tabletop Simulator. Hope you have fun in the hobby!

 

[Rogodal]

Thank you for your replys . I really appreciate your help.
I will try to explain what i play and what my opponents play (english is not my native language).

Most of the time i take a Slaan as General. (Lord Kroak when against demons) inside a block of TG.
Then at least one flying skink priest as arcane vassal.
As core units one bigger block saurus warrios. If possible with points i like to play them with 5 ranks and as a horde. On the side one jungle swarm to give the warrios some poisoned attacks. The rest of the core points i use on skink skirmishers with shield and javelins.
Then some salamander hunting packs and a Stegadon.
In my opinion Stegadon with EOTG is the most usefull. Because of the bad ballistic skill from the skinks, it is almost impossible to hit something with the bow or the blowpipes. (BS of 3 hits on a 4. Moved -1, long range -1, multiple shots from blowpipes again -1)

For example. My Imperial friend uses a lot of cannons/hellfires and steam tanks. So taking big miniatures like stegadons in the match will always attract the fire from those. And it need just 1 or 2 good hits and all the points are gone.
I tried to counter them with chamelon skinks. The cannon just turned around and grapedshot the hell out of my unit. (same with rippers)

Against demons i always have to encounter big demons like the the Bloodthirster or Soulgrinder. Even a OldBlood with the blade of realities are no match for them.

Last weekend we had a special tournament. An Epic 3vs3 (good vs evil). Each player 4k Points. so 12k against 12k . Was a damn nice weekend .
Imperials, Bretons and lizardmen (me) against Demons, Orcs and Warriors of Chaos.
We started pretty nice but on the second turn i had to face Archaon who beat the crap out of my units xD.

For sure i still have to learn a lot more about deployment, movement and when to risk a charge.
And i need to learn more about the strenghts of the lizardmen and how to use them correctly.

 

[airjamy]

Thank you for your replys . I really appreciate your help.
I will try to explain what i play and what my opponents play (english is not my native language).

Most of the time i take a Slaan as General. (Lord Kroak when against demons) inside a block of TG.
Then at least one flying skink priest as arcane vassal.
As core units one bigger block saurus warrios. If possible with points i like to play them with 5 ranks and as a horde. On the side one jungle swarm to give the warrios some poisoned attacks. The rest of the core points i use on skink skirmishers with shield and javelins.
Then some salamander hunting packs and a Stegadon.
In my opinion Stegadon with EOTG is the most usefull. Because of the bad ballistic skill from the skinks, it is almost impossible to hit something with the bow or the blowpipes. (BS of 3 hits on a 4. Moved -1, long range -1, multiple shots from blowpipes again -1)

For example. My Imperial friend uses a lot of cannons/hellfires and steam tanks. So taking big miniatures like stegadons in the match will always attract the fire from those. And it need just 1 or 2 good hits and all the points are gone.
I tried to counter them with chamelon skinks. The cannon just turned around and grapedshot the hell out of my unit. (same with rippers)

Against demons i always have to encounter big demons like the the Bloodthirster or Soulgrinder. Even a OldBlood with the blade of realities are no match for them.

Last weekend we had a special tournament. An Epic 3vs3 (good vs evil). Each player 4k Points. so 12k against 12k . Was a damn nice weekend .
Imperials, Bretons and lizardmen (me) against Demons, Orcs and Warriors of Chaos.
We started pretty nice but on the second turn i had to face Archaon who beat the crap out of my units xD.

For sure i still have to learn a lot more about deployment, movement and when to risk a charge.
And i need to learn more about the strenghts of the lizardmen and how to use them correctly.

Do you have a full list, including magic items etc? The details matter a lot. Cannons are sadly very strong against us lizards if you take monsters. If your opponent takes a lot of cannons every time, it is maybe an idea to just take.. no monsters? Giving them no target makes them basically obsolete.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Thank you for your replys . I really appreciate your help.

No problem! We love 8th interactions!

In my opinion Stegadon with EOTG is the most usefull. Because of the bad ballistic skill from the skinks, it is almost impossible to hit something with the bow or the blowpipes. (BS of 3 hits on a 4. Moved -1, long range -1, multiple shots from blowpipes again -1)

The Giant Bow is an utter waste. Skinks with BS3 firing on long range is 5+ to hit. You're only going to get 2 or 3 shots the ENTIRE game so odds are you won't get any hits or just one.

The Giant Blowpipes I have used quite successfully. Either get close and do multiple shots (that's 2D6 for each Giant Blowpipe eh? 4D6 total, plus the other skinks can throw spears) or stay still and fire away (18" range is not that bad actually). With poisoned attacks it can be quite effective against high toughness, low armour troops or clearing away chaff. Remember every "6" is an auto-wound.

For example. My Imperial friend uses a lot of cannons/hellfires and steam tanks. So taking big miniatures like stegadons in the match will always attract the fire from those. And it need just 1 or 2 good hits and all the points are gone.
I tried to counter them with chamelon skinks. The cannon just turned around and grapedshot the hell out of my unit. (same with rippers)

Hold on, something doesn't make sense here. His EMPIRE cannons grapeshotted you to pieces? With human gunners that have a BS of 3? Were you counting the -1 to hit for Skirmishers AND the -1 to hit Chamo Skink special rule? (Obviously grapeshot has a much shorter range than a cannon, so might have also needed to take another -1 for long range.) That should have been minimally 6's to hit and possibly 7's (meaning he'd have to roll a 6 and then a 4+ after that to hit).

Against demons i always have to encounter big demons like the the Bloodthirster or Soulgrinder. Even a OldBlood with the blade of realities are no match for them.

They're a problem sure. Oldblood with Blade of Realities is not a good loadout as you're striking last (due to Initiative).

Much better to get a Cowboy (Oldblood on Cold One) and then some magic items. Like, Light Armour, then Fencers Blades (WS10) and Glittering Scales (-1 to hit) and a 4+ ward save item. This would tie up the monster in combat as he'll be 5's to hit and your 1+ armour save and 4+ ward will help keep him there.

I'll have a think about this and find you a great thread. But feel free to go looking yourself in the tactics subforum.

 

[Rogodal]

Do you have a full list, including magic items etc? The details matter a lot. Cannons are sadly very strong against us lizards if you take monsters. If your opponent takes a lot of cannons every time, it is maybe an idea to just take.. no monsters? Giving them no target makes them basically obsolete.

Sorry i justed checked in my battlescribe but it seems i rage-deleted the lists.
I will Check if can find some old lists and post them here.

 

[Rogodal]

They're a problem sure. Oldblood with Blade of Realities is not a good loadout as you're striking last (due to Initiative).

Much better to get a Cowboy (Oldblood on Cold One) and then some magic items. Like, Light Armour, then Fencers Blades (WS10) and Glittering Scales (-1 to hit) and a 4+ ward save item. This would tie up the monster in combat as he'll be 5's to hit and your 1+ armour save and 4+ ward will help keep him there.

I'll have a think about this and find you a great thread. But feel free to go looking yourself in the tactics subforum.

ok thx a lot for all the advices . For sure i will Check the army lists in this Forum.
I Never heard about this “cowboy” before. I will try this.
Are there some units, combinations, magic items… who should be a must have in every Match?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

ok thx a lot for all the advices . For sure i will Check the army lists in this Forum.
I Never heard about this “cowboy” before. I will try this.
Are there some units, combinations, magic items… who should be a must have in every Match?

No problem.

There is no one-size-fits-all type of magic item layout.

Generally speaking you'll want to get a high armour save and a 4+ ward save. With Lizardmen, since we are striking last anyways most of the time, I have found it best just to get a GW which is super cheap access to +2 strength which against most armies is pretty good.

However, we can tailor your lists depending on the army that you are facing. Who are you up against next?

And did you check out the points I made on the grapeshot? I think you've been had matey...

 

[airjamy]

No problem.

There is no one-size-fits-all type of magic item layout.

Generally speaking you'll want to get a high armour save and a 4+ ward save. With Lizardmen, since we are striking last anyways most of the time, I have found it best just to get a GW which is super cheap access to +2 strength which against most armies is pretty good.

However, we can tailor your lists depending on the army that you are facing. Who are you up against next?

And did you check out the points I made on the grapeshot? I think you've been had matey...

Yeah, it does sound like they used the old rules for Grapeshot. You do not use the flame template anymore for Grapeshot, you roll an Artillery dice for it now.

 

[Rogodal]

According to the grapeshot i think you are Right there was a mistake.
And Last time i Used tetto‘s vanguard on my Rippers. I got behind the Enemy cannon in the First round. Other Story Same result. Grapeshot and they where gone.

 

[Rogodal]

No problem.

There is no one-size-fits-all type of magic item layout.

Generally speaking you'll want to get a high armour save and a 4+ ward save. With Lizardmen, since we are striking last anyways most of the time, I have found it best just to get a GW which is super cheap access to +2 strength which against most armies is pretty good.

However, we can tailor your lists depending on the army that you are facing. Who are you up against next?

And did you check out the points I made on the grapeshot? I think you've been had matey...

yeah that would be Great! As it seems we will have a Little 1.500 Points tournamemt in 2-3 weeks. The Other Players so far will be demons, ogers, wood elves, dwarves, imperial or bretons and my lizards.
So i would be very glad for some overpowered army lists to surprise them .

Ah and we usually play without any scroll/dispel scroll

 

[Lizards of Renown]

According to the grapeshot i think you are Right there was a mistake.
And Last time i Used tetto‘s vanguard on my Rippers. I got behind the Enemy cannon in the First round. Other Story Same result. Grapeshot and they where gone.

Well remember next time he tries to grapeshot you that he gets an artillery dice worth of shots that he has to roll to hit for each, with -2 to hit.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

yeah that would be Great! As it seems we will have a Little 1.500 Points tournamemt in 2-3 weeks. The Other Players so far will be demons, ogers, wood elves, dwarves, imperial or bretons and my lizards.
So i would be very glad for some overpowered army lists to surprise them .

Ah and we usually play without any scroll/dispel scroll

Tournament eh? So you’ll play each of them?

 

[Rogodal]

Tournament eh? So you’ll play each of them?

Its not sure. The matchups will be choosed randomly. At least we will play 2 matches each. hopefully 3 if we are fast enough.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Its not sure. The matchups will be choosed randomly. At least we will play 2 matches each. hopefully 3 if we are fast enough.

Okay fine, so we'll want to have a well-rounded list to cover all bases.

Definitely a Level 2 Skink Priest.

Definitely 3-4 Skink Skirmisher units with Javelin (can march and shoot with no modifiers except for long range)

At least one Chamo Skink unit (for the tactic you tried last time, but with the proper Grapeshot rules! Don't forget: -1 for Skirmishers and a further -1 for being Chamo Skinks. Always get your opponent to check if it's long range as then it's a further -1. Even Wood Elves are going to have trouble hitting them at a -3 to hit.)

Probably one or two Saurus blocks. If you can only afford one, I'd go with that as then it can soak up some damage and still be combat ready. They're slow to arrive so tend to get shot up.

OB or SV on CO, with GW, Light armour and 4+ ward save talisman (for cannon protection) and if you can, 5 COR as the protection for your OB (Look Out Sir can only be taken with models of the same troop type). This is a mean combination as he will be fast (march move 14") and can get right up and personal with whoever you want.

A Steg. I'd suggest Ancient Steg with 2 Giant Blowpipes (don't forget to roll 4D6 for multiple hits and either move to get within short range and shoot, or stand still and shoot at long range, either way you'll be rolling to hit on 6's but you'll auto-wound so you can play havoc with light infantry, chaff, etc.) Just remember, the Steg is not the be-all-end-all. He's a good monster for a back-up charge to you Saurus block, but will lose against a large infantry unit due to low WS and no rank/standard/musician bonus. His leadership is not great.

The problem is that WE, Empire and Dwarfs will all mostly choose to sit back and shoot the c**p out of you with their artillery/missile troops. Use the tactic that you were trying earlier with the Chamo Skinks, distract with the Skirmishers, while the Steg, Saurus and OB/SV gets close enough to charge. Remember it's always better to gang up and overwhelming win a combat, then lots of stalemates.

With Daemons, OK and Bret's they'll be trying to get into combat with you, so use your skirmishers and Chamo Skinks to harass them on the way. Use the Steg to Blowpipe them as much as possible and then use it for a counter charge / supporting charge. Same with OB/SV.

Let us know how it goes!

(Take lots of pictures!)

LoR

P.S. You really should go diving into the Tactics subforum as there are far greater minds than I who have written up entire Tacticas which are amazing. The above is just some rapid tactics off the top of my head. Have fun!

 

[Rogodal]

Okay fine, so we'll want to have a well-rounded list to cover all bases.

Definitely a Level 2 Skink Priest.

Definitely 3-4 Skink Skirmisher units with Javelin (can march and shoot with no modifiers except for long range)

At least one Chamo Skink unit (for the tactic you tried last time, but with the proper Grapeshot rules! Don't forget: -1 for Skirmishers and a further -1 for being Chamo Skinks. Always get your opponent to check if it's long range as then it's a further -1. Even Wood Elves are going to have trouble hitting them at a -3 to hit.)

Probably one or two Saurus blocks. If you can only afford one, I'd go with that as then it can soak up some damage and still be combat ready. They're slow to arrive so tend to get shot up.

OB or SV on CO, with GW, Light armour and 4+ ward save talisman (for cannon protection) and if you can, 5 COR as the protection for your OB (Look Out Sir can only be taken with models of the same troop type). This is a mean combination as he will be fast (march move 14") and can get right up and personal with whoever you want.

A Steg. I'd suggest Ancient Steg with 2 Giant Blowpipes (don't forget to roll 4D6 for multiple hits and either move to get within short range and shoot, or stand still and shoot at long range, either way you'll be rolling to hit on 6's but you'll auto-wound so you can play havoc with light infantry, chaff, etc.) Just remember, the Steg is not the be-all-end-all. He's a good monster for a back-up charge to you Saurus block, but will lose against a large infantry unit due to low WS and no rank/standard/musician bonus. His leadership is not great.

The problem is that WE, Empire and Dwarfs will all mostly choose to sit back and shoot the c**p out of you with their artillery/missile troops. Use the tactic that you were trying earlier with the Chamo Skinks, distract with the Skirmishers, while the Steg, Saurus and OB/SV gets close enough to charge. Remember it's always better to gang up and overwhelming win a combat, then lots of stalemates.

With Daemons, OK and Bret's they'll be trying to get into combat with you, so use your skirmishers and Chamo Skinks to harass them on the way. Use the Steg to Blowpipe them as much as possible and then use it for a counter charge / supporting charge. Same with OB/SV.

Let us know how it goes!

(Take lots of pictures!)

LoR

P.S. You really should go diving into the Tactics subforum as there are far greater minds than I who have written up entire Tacticas which are amazing. The above is just some rapid tactics off the top of my head. Have fun!

What lore should the Skink priest have? 1.500 p is to less for a Slaan i guess.
The ideas are Great!! Thank you a lot. O’Neill try to make a good List and research the Forum and Post ist here when i am finished.

 

[Rogodal]

And because you asked for pics. Attached should be a pic from our 12k vs 12k

 

[Lizards of Renown]

What lore should the Skink priest have? 1.500 p is to less for a Slaan i guess.
The ideas are Great!! Thank you a lot. O’Neill try to make a good List and research the Forum and Post ist here when i am finished.

Heavens would be my advice. Good versatile Lore.

Beasts isn't bad though. Lot's of great buffs for your troops and a possibility of a magical bolt thrower.

Both are great choices for Lizardmen.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

And because you asked for pics. Attached should be a pic from our 12k vs 12k

Nice!

Reminds me of a 3K I did with a friend with my Lizardmen army. Good times.