TOW Lizardmen Legacy List Changes with 9APR24 update

[Kalisto]

So the FAQs and errata just dropped, and there are some minor changes in the legacy lists too. BUT unlike the FAQs, there is no color code to indicate this, so here is what I notice going over the copy I have printed since release and the update today

https://www.warhammer-community.com/the-old-world-downloads/

Page 1, 2- none
Page 3- Slann troop type changed to monstrous creature and. Slann also gained Close Order.
Page 4- Note removed for skink priest about calloused hide not affecting casting. This is because this is now answered in the main FAQ. It still doesn't affect it, just now a core rule.
Skink Chief no longer grants poison to its mount.
Page 5, 6- none
Page 7- Cameleon skinks, Patrol Leader now has strength 3 instead of 4.
Page 8-19- none
Page 20- Note added to arcane vassal. You cannot channel spells with a range of "self"
Page 21- Monsoon range fixed, central hole now has to be within 15"

Comment if I missed anything and I'll add it up here

It’s not a charge in the book but on main rules that I’d add. Bastiladon still has close order bit don’t longer get the +1 CR bonus

 

[RipperDerek]

I would like to add, Skink Chief's on stegadons not being able to get benefit from Enchanted Shields is very annoying.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I would like to add, Skink Chief's on stegadons not being able to get benefit from Enchanted Shields is very annoying.

So the question I have there is, if going into the combat I know it's AP -3 and I won't get any save, can I instead choose to use the Enchanted-shield? Or do I have to pick once and thats it?

 

[RipperDerek]

So the question I have there is, it going into the combat I know it's AP -3 and I won't get any save, can I instead choose to use the Enchanted-shield? Or do I have to pick once and thats it?

Unfortunately, the rules are very unclear on how this should work, and the FAQ is thoroughly unhelpful. There are also all kinds of weird rules controversies it created, which I won't go into here for the sake of saving everyone's sanity, but suffice it to say it is not at all clear-cut.

So, after a fair amount of arguing, this is what my community settled on. YMMV:

​

 

[discomute]

Also RAW, it is now clear that a character cannot fire it...although I am sure those that want to claim the "character joins the crew" fluff in the Additional Wounds section overrides the rule that says the Character and Crew are different things and cannot use each other's weapons will surely continue to do so.

RAW I disagree. It says what it says and nothing has changed.

RAI I completely agree. They would have addressed it then if the intention was characters could fire.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Yeah. They made it clear so many times to separate riders and mounts and character and mounts or chariots. RAI the character doesn't apply their BS to a giant bow or blow pipes.

 

[Kalisto]

Yeah. They made it clear so many times to separate riders and mounts and character and mounts or chariots. RAI the character doesn't apply their BS to a giant bow or blow pipes.

He is Chariot not mounted. So RAI I completely disagree and i think he can shoot
A FAQ is needed

 

[RipperDerek]

See? It is exactly like I said. People who want the chief to fire the bow will continue to just ignore the rule that specifically says he cannot use weapons meant for the crew.

 

[Herpin_Along]

He is Chariot not mounted. So RAI I completely disagree and i think he can shoot
A FAQ is needed

It's the internet, so I legitimately can't tell if you're joking or not. But intention-wise, the rules team has made it very clear - you don't use the character's BS to fire war machines, you use the crew's!

Copy/pasted from the FAQ:

Q: Can a war machine shoot using the Ballistic Skill of a
character that has joined it?
A: No. Because a war machine and its crew are treated as a single
model, you must use the crew’s BS

Q: Some chariots are equipped with large scale missile
weapons such as bolt throwers. Who shoots such weapons;
the crew, the beasts that draw the chariot, or the chariot itself ?
A: Missile weapons mounted on chariots (or howdahs) are shot by
the crew, using their Ballistic Skill.


Are you legitimately trying to argue that, arbitrarily, behemoth mounted chariots are for some reason an intended exception to this rule? The intent is extremely clear.

 

[BeardedLizard]

The war machine shooting FAQ has nothing to do with this argument, as stegadon chief is not a warmachine. The chariot and missile weapon FAQ doesn't solve it either, because in the argument in favor of using Chief's Ballistic Skill the chief is considered part of the crew.

The whole thing basically boils down to a line from the core rulebook.

Page 205, Characters & Chariot mounts (Bolded the relevant part)
"Improved Characteristics: When a character mounts a chariot, they join its crew,
bolstering their strength, fighting ability and survivability. To represent this, the Wounds
characteristic of the character is added to that of the chariot. For example, if a character
with W3 is mounted upon a chariot with W4, the model would have seven Wounds."

Some people interpret this as text that says:
*Add character's wounds to the chariot's wound score
*Rest is fluff

Some people interpret it saying:
* Character is considered to be part of the crew
* Add it's wounds to the chariot's wound score
* Rest is fluff

FAQ would be nice to put this to the rest. I believe that in ambiguous cases the more underpowered option should be favored.

 

[RipperDerek]

Well, there is already a rule that says the character is not part of the crew and can't use the same weapons they can. So I don't see how an FAQ would help. If they can ignore that rule, they could also just ignore a further FAQ.

 

[Kalisto]

It's the internet, so I legitimately can't tell if you're joking or not. But intention-wise, the rules team has made it very clear - you don't use the character's BS to fire war machines, you use the crew's!

Copy/pasted from the FAQ:

Q: Can a war machine shoot using the Ballistic Skill of a
character that has joined it?
A: No. Because a war machine and its crew are treated as a single
model, you must use the crew’s BS

Q: Some chariots are equipped with large scale missile
weapons such as bolt throwers. Who shoots such weapons;
the crew, the beasts that draw the chariot, or the chariot itself ?
A: Missile weapons mounted on chariots (or howdahs) are shot by
the crew, using their Ballistic Skill.


Are you legitimately trying to argue that, arbitrarily, behemoth mounted chariots are for some reason an intended exception to this rule? The intent is extremely clear.

No i won’t! Just I hadn’t seen the new FAQs. The giant bow is not a war machine but the second answer is pretty clear. You cannot

 

[discomute]

See? It is exactly like I said. .

Yep and I always used a 90 degree vision arc for my Slann, despite it being classified as monstersous infantry. Now it's changed to a monsterous creature, I guess I was right all along.