7th Ed. lizardmen in 8ed, what do you think?

[Caneghem]

Well stegadons aren't cavalry, but who knows what they will do to the movement of "monsters". They might just say "monsters can't march", but who knows?

 

[strewart]

I've heard everything with 3+ save or better, so even infantry.. Two exceptions being Dwarfs and Bretonnians.

I'm not sure if it will count for characters or not, I think that would be a bit silly if it did. What about a foot character with 3+ save in an infantry unit with low save? All of a sudden the whole unit cannot march because of the character? Hopefully it only counts for units.

Completely forgot the saurus riders have a scaly skin save as well as the cold ones, woops! I did think they had 2+ but couldn't remember why.

 

[the-graven]

I hope they don't do that "roll for PD" thing cuz then your Magic will depend on luck, bye bye strategy!
If there is gonna happen something like no more then 25% may be Lords/Heroes and at least 25% of your points needs to be core, since my 2k list has 950 points invested in characters and 450 in core

 

[strewart]

Hmm I think there will still be strategy for magic. You will have to think on your feet. Ok I have this many dice, they have that many dispel, what is worth trying to cast and what isn't? What to cast first? How many dice to use for each spell? And rather than just doing that at the start of battle, you have to do it every turn.

 

[the-graven]

I guess your right but still some strategies wich you planned won't work cuz you don't have enough PD/ he has too many DD, it will weaken magic some cuz combat armies will have good magic defense even without scroll caddie's and sometimes more defense then you have offense, and it will make the battle way longer, 2000 pts with lots of magic will take twice as long as before

 

[the-graven]

About that spears 3 ranks, hand weps 2 ranks thing, that will make saurus insane, a 5x4 unit for example will strike last lets say the whole last rank gets beaten to dead, then 3 ranks survive, and deal out 30 attacks (without champion), they will deal out a lot of damage!

 

[wappellious]

As most folks around here know, I love my skink and kroxigor units. I also know that almost everyone else hates them

However, I have used them in tournaments, and they have been very handy. These are tournaments with objective style missions, where fast units that are immune to fear and can shoot are enhanced. If charge distances are random, people will have to think twice about charging them with the deathstar uber units. That unit could end up falling short, still getting hit by poison shots. Now they will be within my normal move distance, so even if I roll that '1' that I know is coming, I will be hittng them.

I already have a 4 krox, 34 skink sknik tank which I have used in a few games. That unit shot down 2 greater demons in one game!

Since strength 4 attacks will no longer be a -1 to armor saves, the little skinks might actually be able to stay alive. Heck, they will still gat a save against strength 5 hits in CC.

Yes, they have weaknesses. I still am planning on having most of my army based around them. In a 2250 game, I could have ten of them and still be able to have some terradons!

I will be very sad to see my 2 scratch sculpted EOtG's go away, though

 

[Kurlin]

Oh and another knock on the CoR is that battle resolutions will be done with initiative, without regards to who charged.

As far as the magic goes from the rumor I read you roll 2D6 for your PD and your opponent gets the higher number from your roll for DD. So you will always have more PD then they do dispel. The advantage comes from when you cast the spell and automatically add caster lvl to your roll. Which you will need since rumors say that if you dont make the casting cost of a spell it will count as a miscast.

So Our Slann actually becomes a hell of a lot better with Rumination. Add on to that the fact that each lore is supposed to get upgradeable spells, and the slann should dominate the magic phase still. Just got to watch out for irresistible force miscasts that are coming.

And if rumors hold I will definitely be adding some skrox units

Not to mention that the no more partials on template weapons is supposed to be true (i.e. not just a skaven rule after all) make salamanders better. Which will be awesome since block infantry is getting a boost, more to burn

Overall I see our lists changing, and even if only some of the "confirmed" rumors are true we will come out fine.

 

[strewart]

Something occured to me.. 2 ranks fighting for TG and Slann unit? So you will get 1 low strength Slann attack rather than 4 TG attacks? TG may even be better on their own than with a Slann, depending on what you are facing. If you are fighting core the loss of attacks shouldn't matter, but anything with decent attacks might give them significant advantage.

 

[the-graven]

Something occured to me.. 2 ranks fighting for TG and Slann unit? So you will get 1 low strength Slann attack rather than 4 TG attacks? TG may even be better on their own than with a Slann, depending on what you are facing. If you are fighting core the loss of attacks shouldn't matter, but anything with decent attacks might give them significant advantage.

That's right that's what i though too, TG with a Slann will become a lesser combat unit

 

[Walgis]

if these rumors are true i think then GW didint thin about every army... especialy lizards. i mean no eotg? stupid. slann in TG, low atacks.... lame..... miscast on irrisistable force? our only worth of spending pt hero Tetto'Eo is gone as well.... our magic will consist of one slann... cool. no tetto no Eotg.... quite a nerf on lizards....

 

[n810]

On the other hand all of the basic lores are going to be redonne for the better,
as well as a TON of new common magic items...

Maybe some equipment will make it worth while for the slann to be fighting.

 

[Caneghem]

On the other hand all of the basic lores are going to be redonne for the better,
as well as a TON of new common magic items...

Maybe some equipment will make it worth while for the slann to be fighting.

Maybe some kind of item that does a bound attack on enemies in base contact or something? Or even a new magic banner for the TG.

In fairness, I have heard only "horde" units will be able to fight in ranks, so TG should remain fairly sturdy against most normal units. The initiative thing will hurt them, but I guess that's why they get T4 2+ armor!

 

[Kurlin]

The hit on TG with Slann may have been on purpose. If they are trying to move to bigger battles, they may have wanted to give a partial nerf to the dethstar units. If that only makes TG bad against elite units, well don't let elite units get near your slann So I think that GW did think of every army when they came up with this.

Magic spells are supposed to have gotten more powerful, so inherently they have also gotten more risky.

Yes the viability of the EOTG could now sucks, but before everyone panics on that, let the army specific errata for 8th come out first. It could very well be addressed there.

If you think 8th is a nerf on lizards, then honestly you are the reason that GW is changing 8th. You are totally reliant on your characters which GW is trying to change.

 

[Walgis]

The hit on TG with Slann may have been on purpose. If they are trying to move to bigger battles, they may have wanted to give a partial nerf to the dethstar units. If that only makes TG bad against elite units, well don't let elite units get near your slann So I think that GW did think of every army when they came up with this.

Magic spells are supposed to have gotten more powerful, so inherently they have also gotten more risky.

Yes the viability of the EOTG could now sucks, but before everyone panics on that, let the army specific errata for 8th come out first. It could very well be addressed there.

If you think 8th is a nerf on lizards, then honestly you are the reason that GW is changing 8th. You are totally reliant on your characters which GW is trying to change.

im not totally reliant on my characters, but when i see i wount be able to take slann with eotg (posibly not taking eotg ever more with these rumors) and the stupidity of Tetto'Eko hero choise, irrisistable force having a draw back so tetto means killing your self on your own, nice. the ones that will benefit from these rules are for eg TK army, they will do theyre incantations and they will be safe...

 

[Kurlin]

The hit on TG with Slann may have been on purpose. If they are trying to move to bigger battles, they may have wanted to give a partial nerf to the dethstar units. If that only makes TG bad against elite units, well don't let elite units get near your slann So I think that GW did think of every army when they came up with this.

Magic spells are supposed to have gotten more powerful, so inherently they have also gotten more risky.

Yes the viability of the EOTG could now sucks, but before everyone panics on that, let the army specific errata for 8th come out first. It could very well be addressed there.

If you think 8th is a nerf on lizards, then honestly you are the reason that GW is changing 8th. You are totally reliant on your characters which GW is trying to change.

im not totally reliant on my characters, but when i see i wount be able to take slann with eotg (posibly not taking eotg ever more with these rumors) and the stupidity of Tetto'Eko hero choise, irrisistable force having a draw back so tetto means killing your self on your own, nice. the ones that will benefit from these rules are for eg TK army, they will do theyre incantations and they will be safe...

Rules are not designed for named characters plain and simple. Yes the Eotg not being there can suck, but again there may be errata to make it more viable. And TK will get a new book very soon after 8th if rumors hold true, so they will be corrected for that if they aren't in the errata.

 

[the-graven]

There is also a rumour mounts count for their normal slots, so in 2000 pts you can take a Slann and EotG if the Slann and the Priest are 500 pts or less together(not including the A.Steg. who counts for Rare).
But it's only a rumour.

 

[Walgis]

There is also a rumour mounts count for their normal slots, so in 2000 pts you can take a Slann and EotG if the Slann and the Priest are 500 pts or less together(not including the A.Steg. who counts for Rare).
But it's only a rumour.

if eotg will count for rare option (that is a. stegadon) it will be over powered becouse we could take ~3 eotg's that is quite alot on these restrictions.

as i said above i think they should do this at this way:
eogt 290 pts go to rare slot but a.stegadon takes up not the rare slot but a nother hero slot, that is if you take a plain priest on eotg you will count as havint 2 heroes for 100 pt and rare will have 290 pt. so in this way max you will get 2 eotgs. thats my opinion

 

[dustandpolos]

Hi, I'm new to the site; been reading it for a while but holding off on actually starting an army until 8th ed, just gaining a sense of how the army work from the tactica and army list threads posted around here.



There have been some updates on Warseer which really change how things read. Firstly, EotG seems definitely out -

All from Avian (confirmed):
25% max characters (includes mounts)

.

On the heavy troops not marching, we have:

* - Rumoured to be something like this:
All infantry and cavalry models (i.e. smaller than ogre sized) with a passive non-magical save of 3+ or better cannot march move. I.e. heavy armour and shield would allow you to march, as the +1 HW & shield is only in combat.

Brettonians and Dwarfs will be exempt

Now this means characters might be ok if youthrow on a magic shield depending on how it works. If not, putting a Saurus Scarvet on a cold one in a unit of saurus will actually slow the unit down to 7" a turn.

All of this pales a little into insignificance next to the realisation that Temple guard have a basic save of 5+ scales, +1 armour, +1 shield... Which means Temple guard will be crawling around the table at a maximum rate of 4" a turn.

With regards the second rank Slann: we may not have the issue because the current rule is that characters may only attack if in the front rank (or base contact) regardless of equipment etc. It may be that tyhis rule remains unchanged to avoid characters hiding in a unit, unable to be singled out but still capable of attacking.

If not, the Slann is going to be very odd. Our special rules mean that for all intents and purposes a Slann in TG is not really in combat; they can still cast spells, still have LoS over the combat etc - all of which would be very strange if it can also attack in the combat it is not really in. I do wonder whether the Terror ability will be worth it on a Slann now to get the basic +2 combat res for the unit though.

On the subject of TG, aside from the movement issue, there is supposedly a downgrade to stubborn, which could really hurt.

Stubborn

* If you are only engaged to the front and have more ranks than the opponent, you are Stubborn. - Avian/Harry

The biggest news to me is the multiple ranks thing. This actually really hurts Saurus as it stands.

# Infantry models in the second rank can fight, with a maximum of 1A per model (with whatever weapon they have). - Avian/Harry
# Special rules apply as normal.
# Spears +1 rank as normal, but one attack only (fighting in 3 ranks).

So Saurus get two attacks from their front rank, 1 from their second, one from the third. That works out at exactly the same number of attacks, but now you need three ranks instead of two, and with missile fire and attacking last even should you charge, this means 4 ranks required to have a chance of getting full attacks.

Worse still, while Saurus are downgraded slightly, everyone else gets a decent boost. High Elves aren't worth complaining about because of the serious reductino to the usefulness of ASF, but Executioners in two ranks without losing attacks from casualties? Every single attack unit without spears doubles in damage potential, more if they would normally have struck second. Any single attack spear unit increases in power by 50%. High Elves increase by a notional 33%, but in practice will only benefit from this in blocks 4-5 deep instead of across the board. Greatweapons and halberds in single attack units, for my money, do best out of this change as it stands. Our TG get an extra attack each (Slann-screen excepted of course) but really pay for it in other ways.

Finally, the warseer rumour on ranged attacks will not affect our skinks at all:

Units armed with bows, short bows and longbows fire in two ranks. Units armed with handguns, crossbows, anything else fire in 1 rank - Avian and someone else, so I'm considering this confirmed now.

We have javelins and blowpipes, no bows.

There are of course positives: Kroxigor units getting a rank bonus at three wide, +1 combat res from fear, attacking in two ranks with full attacks and gaining a crush attack (Ogre impact hits perhaps?) makes them by far the biggest winners I can see. Oh, and Salamanders of course.

Only other thought is that if Pit of Shades survives the transition with the change to partial hits, that thing could destroy saurus armies by itself.


These are of course all rumours and should be taken as part of a whole package rather than individually, but there's a lot worth thinking about and several changes more harmful to current favorite units on closer reading than perhaps at fisrt glance.

 

[Xlcontiqu]

Personally, I do not believe anything I do not see in print. There were rumours about the Lizardmen book and many of them turned out to be false.

And I think this system will not effect my style of play much. I usually only use a Slann, spend a fair amount of points in core, and never really use Temple Guard.