8th Ed. Ideas for fixing Skrox

[Nakki]

I am not a tournament player, I mostly play with friends. I like to play southlands lizardmen and I am looking for some ideas for small rule changes to make skrox units not be totally useless. It seems the old ones decided skinks and kroxigors should fight side by side so that they could trip over each other and die uselessly in battle. I am trying to write a rule or two that make skrox units useful (particularly in the absence of saurus blocks) without having too wide reaching of implications.

Some ideas i have had
1) krox start off in 3rd row and are able to attack without needing to be in horde formation
2) horde formation actually works...i.e. krox only count as 1 row for the purpose of supporting attacks
3) Skinks (other than heros) in base to base contact with a kroxigor cannot be attacked, must target the kroxigor.
4) wont look as cool.....but kroxigors in the front row. Thus skinks are only there for ranks and shooting fodder. You could also call it krox move to the front of the unit when combat is entered, pushing the skinks out of the way. Perhaps a leadership test could be taken to make this happen, similar to 6th edition rules only it is done within a single unit instead of between separate krox and SS units. (This one is my favorite!)

Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. I love kroxigors! I want them to return to their days of chariot bashin glory!!!

 

[olderplayer]

I don't think that skrox are as bad as people make them out to be but the lose of ability of the Krox to sit in the second rank and not get attacked in combat was big for the viability of that unit in competitive settings. I still think that there is a place for a ten skink, one Krox uber chaff unit in the army and skrox with Tetto is an interesting idea.

Trying to drum up house rules usually gets a lot of opposition. In a comp setting, like Swedish comp, it would simply be addressed by setting the comp to reflect the fact that the unit is not as optiomal as saurus is many instances.

An FAQ that says that for supporting attack purposes, the skinks in the row of models behind a Krox if the Krox is in the second rank, get to provide supporting attacks might be worth something although the idea of a little skink attacking through a big Krox is kind of rediculous. At least, one might say that if a Krox is behind a Krox in the second row then it gets supporting attacks would do something, although, frankly I think running a unit six skinks wide with three Krox and making the unit very deep in ranks for stead fast is probably optimal in comparison with a horde unless one has Tetto in the unit.

I'd like making the Krox -1 to hit in combat (like a soft cover) if one is reaching over a skink to hit the Krox. That would have made a lot of sense to me and would probably work to make the unit more viable.

 

[kroxigor01]

I think they would be fine with immune to stomp and can't be attacked.

Third rank support wouldn't matter that much. Extra skink attack woho.

Horde working with multiple Kroxigors would be useless as well unless you want to take more than 5 Krox in the unit (450 points). The mega unit of 80 skinks and 10 Kroxigors (900 points) would be pretty funny though. "*shake opponents hand* my core has 10 ranks and S7. Good luck."

Kroxigors being in the front rank would be totally OP. 6 Kroxigors and 48 skinks (540 points) and run similar to the horde unit above, in that you get a unit with a shed load of attacks (18 S7 attacks) and 10 ranks.

 

[Mr Phat]

I had a worn down unit of skrox containing 3 (1 wound left on the 3rd) kroxigors and roughly 18 skinks hold op with a Stardragon in the front and a frostheart phoenix in the flank for 2 turns.

Skrox are fine.
Especially now when they can take poison attacks in combat.

Get Harmonic convergence from Heavens of and you will see results
re-rolling a 1 means 1 extra chance for a poison attack, as well as kroxigors suddenly hit a lot more.

Curse of the midnight wind works wonders with this unit too, simply cause Armour saves get an extra chance to fail against those S7 / Poison attacks ( I know the krox dont have poison)

I know its the old "I don't wanna rely on magic for my close combat to be effective", but since you play Lizardmen you have to.
Unless you are counting on that support charge next turn of course, which is usually how we do things....but then you shouldnt be needing more from your skrox than holding up for a turn..which they usually do fine due to numbers.

I repeat, skrox are fine

 

[Spiney Norman]

Err, no disrespect but upgrading your skinks to have poisoned attacks is a colossal trap, their attacks are still only s3 and won't go through a half decent armour save, if you give the Kroxis poison it would be a different matter.

Changes that should really happen to make the whole thing work
1. Either give Kroxigor their stomps OR make them at least 5pts cheaper than special Kroxis, its really dumb that fielding them this way has no real benefit other than making them core and means they lose 25% of their attacks.

2. Only attacks that hit on a 6 may be targeted against Kroxigor, I can't help but feel the skink screen ought to give them some kind of protection, even if it doesn't make them completely immune. The other possibility is that Krox could take a sort of 'Look out sir' for any attack that is targeted at them to represent the skinks getting in the way, but that just feels messy and unnecessary.

The problem currently is that the unit is neither infantry nor monstrous infantry, but it has all the downsides of both and none of the benefits of either.

 

[hdctambien]

The problem currently is that the unit is neither infantry nor monstrous infantry, but it has all the downsides of both and none of the benefits of either.

It's funny, I've had opponents that described the old book Skrox exactly the opposite way. I think the Skrox are a much more fair unit now than they were in the (FAQed) old book.

I'd like making the Krox -1 to hit in combat (like a soft cover) if one is reaching over a skink to hit the Krox. That would have made a lot of sense to me and would probably work to make the unit more viable.

I think this would be an interesting rule. Or possibly giving the Krox an extra pip of Armor (the front rank skinks work kind of like barding on a mount to protect the Krox)

As the rule stands, though, the Krox already have a bit of protection. Only the front rank is allowed to attack the Kroxigor.

-1 to hit should reduce the # of hits by 16% (with a potential for 100% of those attacks to still go through)
Only the front rank can attack means only 50% (or 33% in horde) of the attacks can even be attempted against the Krox.

It works out better for the Kroxigor this way.

Assuming 6 wide skinks vs a unit that is at least 8 wide with WS>3:

16 attacks at 4+ (counting the -1 to hit) makes for 8 hits on average (maximum of 16)

or

8 attacks (front rank only) at 3+ makes for 5.3 hits on average (maximum of 8)

Now, having both "only front rank can attack" and "-1 to hit" would obviously be better. But I think if you could have only one of those rules, the one that we got isn't so bad.

upgrading your skinks to have poisoned attacks is a colossal trap,

I agree, taking poison in a Skrox unit isn't the best idea (a unit of 10 cohorts, maybe...) But speaking about traps....

I think attacking the Kroxigor is also colossal trap. They are harder to kill so as you pour attacks into reducing the number of S7 attacks you take, you will expose yourself to more rounds of S7 attacks. Better to focus on the skinks and remove ranks and steadfast as quickly as possible (unless you have a S6 unit, in which case, slaughter the Krox right away then massacre the skinks... lesson: don't charge Skrox into a S6+ unit)

1. Either give Kroxigor their stomps OR make them at least 5pts cheaper than special Kroxis, its really dumb that fielding them this way has no real benefit other than making them core and means they lose 25% of their attacks.

I think it would be totally fair to make the Krox 5 points cheaper in the Skrox unit, but making them count as core kind of makes them "cheaper" (spending core points is like playing with house money, it doesn't really count because you have to spend them).

As for Stomps. They technically do have stomps.... to the Flank. It's kind of like a deterrent for flank charging the Skrox (like the Bastiladon's +1 to hit in the rear ability) It's not terrible useful.

However, if your Skrox have gotten whittled down to 6 skinks and 3 kroxigor (because your opponent was focusing on killing skinks) you still have 2 ranks from the Krox and are likely still steadfast. If your opponent continues to kill skinks, he will expose himself to your stomps. If he starts targeting your kroxigor, he will get much less combat resolution and may not reduce any of your attacks back at all (and he may lose that combat). It puts him in a bit of a pickle.

It would be nice to always have stomps, but it's also fun to point out to your opponent (or save it as a surprise) that "if you keep killing my skinks the Kroxigor will fill in the front row and I'll start getting to stomp you!"

I know its the old "I don't wanna rely on magic for my close combat to be effective", but since you play Lizardmen you have to.

I second this. All of the Lizardmen units require magic support to be successful in Close Combat, it isn't really fair to consider Skrox without it. If a unit can chew up and spit out a Skrox unit, then it will be killing off Saurus just as quickly (and Temple Guard would be right behind them at the Pearely Spawning Pools).

Give them Wyssian's, Iceshard, Hand of Glory, Enchanted Blades, Flesh to Stone ... any of those, and they'll match up a lot better.

 

[Mr Phat]

Err, no disrespect but upgrading your skinks to have poisoned attacks is a colossal trap, their attacks are still only s3 and won't go through a half decent armour save, if you give the Kroxis poison it would be a different matter.

I agree completely, and thats why I dont use them for high-armour save matchups.
A skrox with poison is pretty good for high-toughness targets/ a lot of monsters though. I can tell you they do better against a frostheart than saurus or TG (both reduced to wound on 6es).

against Orcs they would do well too I imagine (haven't played an orc army with the new book).

2. Only attacks that hit on a 6 may be targeted against Kroxigor, I can't help but feel the skink screen ought to give them some kind of protection, even if it doesn't make them completely immune. The other possibility is that Krox could take a sort of 'Look out sir' for any attack that is targeted at them to represent the skinks getting in the way, but that just feels messy and unnecessary.

Wouldnt be skinks lining up to defend the krox, but wouldnt be kroxes pushing skinks in front of them to save a blow either.
Wouldnt randomizing be the most straight forward way to represent the chaos that I for one imagine goes on with skinks running around the legs of the krox?

 

[Pinktaco]

I agree with the -1 to hit against krox. It makes sense, isn't overpowered (krox have ws3 anyway...), is easy to work with and sort of acknowledges what was in the previous army book, but also acknowledges that having S7 models that cannot be targeted is ridiculous so it's a good/fine compromise.

Right now I have issues seeing what role exactly they should fullfill. Against other core we can take saurus for similar points and we've just concluded that S6 is a no-go.. So don't be charged by lances, which the krox are good against... We'll fvck

 

[Spiney Norman]

Poisoned skinks are not the way to deal with a frosty, catch them on any unit with ranks, then ram an ancient steg into their flanks. By far the easiest way to deal with it. Besides anything that you need poison to wound should be adequetly dealt with by S7 Kroxigor wouldn't you say?

Wouldnt be skinks lining up to defend the krox, but wouldnt be kroxes pushing skinks in front of them to save a blow either.
Wouldnt randomizing be the most straight forward way to represent the chaos that I for one imagine goes on with skinks running around the legs of the krox?

Well I was envisaging that as a sort of randomisation built into the to hit roll, basically on a 1-2 you're going to miss, on a 3-5 your going to hit skink (or a 4-5 if you are WS2), on a 6 you're going to hit Krox. Regular randomisation would require an extra roll, which just makes the whole combat system messy and clunky.

 

[hdctambien]

basically on a 1-2 you're going to miss, on a 3-5 your going to hit skink (or a 4-5 if you are WS2), on a 6 you're going to hit Krox.

But what happens when you cast Hand of Glory and Iceshard Blizzard on the Skrox and only 6's can hit anything in the unit?

 

[Spiney Norman]

Do people actually try that combo?

I can honestly say I hadn't thought about it

 

[Mr Phat]

By far the easiest way to deal with it. Besides anything that you need poison to wound should be adequetly dealt with by S7 Kroxigor wouldn't you say?

point taken, yes I would....still they seem to do pretty well when I use them. Then again I havnt used poison cohorts more than a fistful of times, so I might just have been lucky really.

but now for something else:

this is before my time in whfb but wasnt kroxigors able to charge through "skink-screens" in an older edition?

Something that would make me take skrox every time would be if the krox where able to "charge out", dividing the unit.

of course that would mean you could just charge krox out the first chance you got, meaning you could basicly take kroxigor as Core units, but that could be fixed with a rule, perhaps max. 4 per unit, to prevent those 8Krox units to pay for core.

 

[Spiney Norman]

That's not how it used to work actually.

Back in 6th edition (my first with Lizards) there were no combined units (and no skink cohorts in the main list at all actually) but skink Skirmishers (core) and Kroxigor units (special) had a unique way of working together, the skink skirmish unit would deploy in front of the Krox and the Kroxigor unit could then declare a normal charge as if it could draw LoS through the skink screen and could basically move through the skink formation as if it wasn't there. Then the skinks that were charged through had to pass a ld test or do nothing for the rest of the turn.

IMHO it was a much better way of working that the current, rather unsatisfactory hodge-podge unit we have now.

Actually I think the 6th edition book was probably my favourite ever Lizardmen edition based on how the army worked (for a whole host of reasons), even if Saurus were awful back then, it seems like too much of the army's flavour died with that book.

 

[Mr Phat]

That's not how it used to work actually.

What you described was actually what I meant, forgive me for not being clear. What I wrote next was the idea for the skrox, not how I thought it worked.

Actually I think the 6th edition book was probably my favourite ever Lizardmen edition based on how the army worked (for a whole host of reasons), even if Saurus were awful back then, it seems like too much of the army's flavour died with that book.

I started in 5th, had 2-3 games as a youngster and just painted the fellas.
Then I swooped back in late 7th so sadly I never got to play that book.

 

[listless]

I still think that there is a place for a ten skink, one Krox uber chaff unit

I first played an 11 skink 1 Krox (+muso upgrade) unit in a themed skink list and have used them since. They often end up on the flank where they can do well against opposing chaff units. Serious combat units can generally ignore them but chaff units can't. When they do get cornered I just swift reform to 6 wide and move to within 12 (if the enemy hasn't closed the distance already), then 10 poison shots and 10 more in a stand and shoot then the krox doing his thing in the ensuing combat can be surprisingly effective.

The Ld7 is a boon out of general range.

 

[Nakki]

When i mentioned the krox purhaps moving to the front rank, this 6th edition version is what I was referring to. I really like the idea of Krox charging out of skink units and maybe having a ratio lower than 8:1. It accomplishes a lot of interesting things in my opinion which would be fun to play with, both in gaming terms and in fluff terms.
1) skinks don't really want to be in combat, as their WS suggests they avoid it when they can, thats why they fight with kroxigors!
2) kroxigors are not the most clever bunch. I always thought groups of 6 of them as flankers was a bit silly as a flanking unit suggests the unit is tactically intelligent enough to take complex orders and not immediately run into combat. A skink caddy makes sense in the same way as skink prodders for salamanders.
3) in game terms it gives a way to use kroxigors that don't lose all their punch to a round or two of shooting.
4) It allows krox to be taken as core but makes it very difficult and awkward to make a giant 18 krox horde.

I will play test both this and the -1 to hit a bit (separately).

ALSO! 6th edition was BY FAR the best lizardmen! There was even a southlands list in the back . Skinks were broken, kroxigors were useful, Slann were masters of magic instead of lv4s with a few extra whistles....And you could turn your units into giant conga lines across half the board......what more could you want!!!

 

[Nakki]

P.S. Thanks everybody for your suggestions and discussion!

 

[JuQ]

Right now that the enemy ccan choose wether to attack the skinks or the krox, what is the niche of this unit? what is it good for?
If you face weak troops they can just obliterate your skinks with S3 and WS3 attacks while your kroxs attacks doesnt really worth that much. If you engage more elite unit they will probably kill your kroxs almost as if they were skinks.

For me the solution is removing the choice from the oponent. They would be a really good unit against high armor troops if the had to kill the skinks first. And if they really wated to make it a kick ass unit, they would allow the LM player to change the formation placing the kroxs on the front rank to protect the skinks or leaving them on the second rank.

Maybe when the kroxs get new minis they will get decent rules so they can be sold.

 

[hdctambien]

Right now that the enemy ccan choose wether to attack the skinks or the krox, what is the niche of this unit? what is it good for?
If you face weak troops they can just obliterate your skinks with S3 and WS3 attacks while your kroxs attacks doesnt really worth that much. If you engage more elite unit they will probably kill your kroxs almost as if they were skinks.

Their niche is as a tarpit with a bit of a bite that can get the charge and want to target things that don't have a lot of static CR.

A unit of 3 Krox and 24 Skinks with Standard and Musician matches up almost evenly against a Doombull with Sword of Swift Slaying, Dawnstone, and Ramhorn Helm (I don't know if this is the optimal build of a Doombull, this is how the guy I recently played ran him)

By my math, if the Bull puts all his attacks into the Krox the CR ends up being 5.27 to 5.14 in the Bulls favor (barely) and the Skrox have a musician to win the tie.

If you compare 2 Krox and 16 Skinks to this Doombull the final CR is Bull: 4.9 to Skrox: 4.55 which is similarly close and saves you 90 points in case the dice don't go your way.

Those numbers assume no charge bonus (or impact hits from the Bull). Whoever gets the charge should win the first round of combat. And that is where the Krox ultimately beat out any unit of Saurus. Movement 6 can get the charge they want more often than movement 4.

This is also assuming the Beastman player always attacks the Krox. If he decides to put some of this attacks into the skinks then he is going to start losing combat by more and more.

 

[olderplayer]

Only the front rank gets to attack the Krox, so that limits things a bit. Granted, I would not take a skrox unit into a while lion horde front on but I certainly would take on a flank with the TG in front and have the M6 to get around stuff with the skink chaff units working in synergy. A frost heart phoenix or a terrorgheist might do some damage but they will suffer and often die to a skrox unit because the unit will be steadfast at LD7 cold blooded and they have only limited attacks that can go after the Krox. The range provided by M6 alone has some effects on how aggressively an enement unit will move forward and how the chaff wars play out. The big issue is does one want to spend those points on that unit instead of a saurus unit in core?

Also, the skinks provide a lot of effective protection to the Krox from regular shooting type attacks, attacks in combat distributed as shooting, and magical and other attacks distributed as shooting. Those now prevalent dark elf and high elf rbts have a lot harder time hitting the Krox with skinks whereas they cut through regular Krox units pretty effectively for their point costs; same with archers and repeater crossbows that accumulate a lot of hits and wounds even if they are wounding of 5's and allowing a 4+ or 5+ AS. plus those skinks now get a better armour save and a parry save (to the front) from regular close combat attacks.

It would kind of make sense to have a rule that says Krox in a skrox unit can selectively make way to the front rank if one wants since the enemy can attack the Krox in the second rank from its firont rank anyway. That would give the unit protection against stomps but one might envision at a penalty in the form of the loss of skink supporting attacks. when behind the Krox unless in the rank immediately behind the Krox in the front rank when in a horde formation. You could have the poor skinks take the hits or most of the hits from impact hits, for example, and their share of hits distributied as shooting hits in combat but then the Krox step up and do their thing on the chariot or monster that charged the unit. That alone would make this a better and more interesting but not underpriced for the points cost.