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I HAVE THE POWER!!! (in terms of forum milestones)

Aginor said:
I have high appreciation for animals but unless you show me at least a scientific paper I call B.S. on that post of yours.
And not only about the intelligence thing but also about the body.
Humans do NOT have bad eyes. In fact we have extraordinarily good eyes, only very few animals have better ones. Having a good image processor behind them (our brain, again) makes them even better.
We can endure high and low temperatures like almost no animal can, we can survive with very little food or water for extended periods of time.
We can make tools. That alone is worth more than any specific body trait.
We are pretty good in many things. The above are just a few examples.

Also you are mixing stuff up. Half of the things you mention (like morals, being peaceful, and caring for their young/old) are not related to intelligence.

Oh and one last point: I suggest you stop with the insults.
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NIGHTBRINGER said:
Ironic!


You really seem to have an awfully high opinion of yourself. Exactly what creative and imaginative feats have you accomplished that so thoroughly trounce your fellow human beings?


I don't think you understood the context within which that statement was made. That cream of the crop statement was made in terms of our dominance on the planet and it was presented as supporting evidence for our superior intellectual advantage over the animal kingdom. You're bringing up your own perceived ethical and moral qualms with humanity, which has no relevance to the statement I made or the topic at hand (animal vs human intelligence). However, if you really want to get into it, humans have demonstrated both the most heinous and selfish acts in the history of the planet as well as the most altruistic ones. As a species we exist at both ends of the spectrum. There are evil individuals like Hitler and Stalin, but there also those that have risked their lives or even given up their lives to help strangers (or members from other species).

In regards to guns, animals have been at our mercy long before then (just not to the same degree as today). Show me which animals could match the might of the Roman Empire for instance. Long before firearms, humans had dominance over the animal kingdom. The building of walls, fences, castles, the bow & arrow and traps all put us ahead of other species. Consider also our ancestors ability to utilize other animals... such as the horse. Our ability to plan ahead, strategize and work together provided us with an absolutely unfair advantage. In short, we can out think and bring down prey that should otherwise be too powerful for us to handle.

Also, I'm not sure what guns being cowardly weapons (as you put it) has to do with our discussion. I'd probably rethink that; I'd wager the soldiers that gave their life in WW2 (just as an example) are probably a lot more courageous than you or I sitting behind our keyboards.


That proves my point exactly. If we are such a pathetic species, as you suggest (which isn't completely true as @Canas has pointed out), then our intellectual advantage over the rest of the animal kingdom becomes ever more apparent. Despite the glaring weaknesses you pointed out, we have managed to obtain complete dominance over every living thing on the planet. If Elephants, Dolphins and Crows equal us in terms of cognitive capacity, then they should surely have risen to the top of the pyramid.

Only two living things threaten our dominance over the world, ourselves and the lowly virus (which isn't quite technically classed as a living thing anyways)


My sister teaches kindergarten kids (around age 5), she has told me that she has taught some of the brightest kids in the class division; as in math. Admittedly, this does not apply to all the kids in her class, but please show me the crow that can perform division. Also, even if kids of age 3 can't perform activities that crows can perform, there are other activities that 3 year old kids can perform that are beyond the ability of a crow. And we are only talking about humans at age 3, who have nowhere near the intelligence of a 7 year old or a 12 year old, let alone a fully mature adult.



First off there are many people that do genuinely show care/respect towards both the young and the elderly. I can't speak for all countries, but here in Canada, most people are good and decent folks. Secondly, you are deviating off course once again; the topic of discussion is intelligence, not empathy and caring. Just like before, there are people that have shown levels of kindness that exceeds anything seen in the animal world. We as a species exhibit both the best and the worst that this world has to offer.


Interestingly enough, a correlation has been shown between intelligence and cruelty/murder. Chimpanzees (probably the smartest animal after us) have been seen killing other animals for sport (killing animals that pose no threat to them and leaving behind the carcass without consuming it). In fact, they have been seen forming groups and hunting down other chimps, who they subsequently brutally tear apart and kill for no particular reason (and they travel great distances to do this)




This coming from a guy who thinks Jar Jar is a great character and that dolphins/crows/elephants can match human intelligence. I'd probably take a good long look in the mirror before you start bashing the intelligence of others.

That said, this "debate" is starting to devolve into personal attacks. This is a pretty friendly forum and there really is no place for it here. A younger version of myself might have been more eager to jump at the challenge but I think it best not to bring that kind of negativity into this forum. If you wish to continue a fair and honest debate, I am more than willing to. I have nothing personally against you, nor do I wish to. If you wish to discontinue our debate, that is okay too.

I honestly feel sorry for you in a way (and I don't mean this as an attack), I can only imagine what type of people surround you. You have such a low opinion of people. According to you, people are no more intelligent than animals, they are cruel, they are pathetic, they lack any imagination, they are sheep (from a previous debate we had), and so on. My suggestion is that you find some more positive people to hang around with. I might just be very lucky, but the people in my life are nothing like how you describe humanity to be. There are terrible people out there, but I wouldn't pin that on humanity as a whole.

I think you have a lot of growing up to do, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Maybe start looking at people in a more positive light rather than thinking that you are the only one that exemplifies the positive traits of humanity.
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All right, all right, I’m sorry. I think it was primarily frustration at the fact @NIGHTBRINGER was able to counter anything I said in this debate that made me snap momentarily. I had a very tiring day yesterday and I had just got to a point where I was completely fed up and just let some of I think loose here, but I’m over that now.I agree that I just went too far there in that last post. I’ve removed anything in the post that appeared to be insulting and I’ll make sure not to resort to insults again.

I agree with @NIGHTBRINGER that I have met many people who I dislike. I am being treated like dirt at university because the majority of the lecturers there think they are so clever and only show some sort of respect towards the geniuses. Ordinary people like me are seen as stupid when we are still pretty clever, and it’s demoralising. Also the majority of the other students there have no respect for culture or civilisation and would much rather mess around in nightclubs or go to other social events than appreciate the finer things in life that I appreciate. It also doesn’t help when you’re the youngest person in the year like I am when everyone else sees you as the insignificant youngling and enforces their opinion over yours to quash whatever you want to say. I've had this throughout much of school and a good bit of university and if you're someone like me you'll probably know how much it gets you down, and all this has fuelled what I have said in the previous post. Everything about university just bores and annoys me and it seems to have culminated in this, for which I’m very sorry. I'll make sure this doesn't happen again.

I have to say, though, there are two things @NIGHTBRINGER can do:
1. Stop throwing your hatred of Jar Jar in my face just because I’m one of the few people who doesn’t hate him. OK, you hate him, and that’s your opinion, but please stop showing your hate towards him all over the off topic section because it annoys me. Keep it for a forum where everyone is a Jar Jar hater. I have my fair share of hated Star Wars characters, but I don’t keep on reminding everyone else of it very much. Also, I think he’s OK, but he isn’t my absolute favourite character as he was when I was considerably younger and I don’t think he’s a ‘great character’ per se, so don’t put such words in my mouth.
2. Stop throwing your hatred of AoS in the faces of all the exclusively AoS players in the forum. I am more or less neutral in this one, but I can see that it can be annoying for those who joined the hobby after Fantasy was deprived of its support to find someone who continually says they dislike the new game system. Again, I have almost continually seen you say that you hate AoS or show some sort of dislike for it in other threads (apart from the Daughters of Khaine and they derive from fantasy anyway) and it would be like seeing a Magic the Gathering player continually bash Fantasy (or the other way around) just because it’s different to what they enjoy. When AoS first came out I was like you - I was saying ‘why did they get rid of Fantasy?’ and ‘I really don’t like the Stormcast or the heavenly scenery’ but I’ve just grown to accept AoS is here to stay and have been showing more interest in it and what others have been doing in it.

There’s a rule on Necrontyr Online that says ‘Always post constructive, useful information’, and I think that we should all follow this rule, me included - in other words, if something you’re about to say doesn’t contribute positively to a topic in a thread, don’t post it.

Other than that though, I’m sorry all this ever happened. Please say if there’s anything I can do to make it up to any of you. :oops: :sorry:

I feel that I have said my piece here now, so let's move on and bring this thread back on track.

Also @Aginor - I didn’t say humans had bad eyes - I said that they have poor night vision, which is true because we have vastly improved our day vision at the penalty of our night vision, which is inferior to that of some other animals.
 
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Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
I agree with @NIGHTBRINGER that I have met many people who I dislike. I am being treated like dirt at university because the majority of the lecturers there think they are so clever and only show some sort of respect towards the geniuses. Ordinary people like me are seen as stupid when we are still pretty clever, and it’s demoralising. Also the majority of the other students there have no respect for culture or civilisation and would much rather mess around in nightclubs or go to other social events than appreciate the finer things in life that I appreciate. It also doesn’t help when you’re the youngest person in the year like I am when everyone else sees you as the insignificant youngling and enforces their opinion over yours to quash whatever you want to say. I've had this throughout much of school and a good bit of university
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That sounds like a very tough position. I can't speak much on that topic because my experience in University was the polar opposite. It might be really hard with all the negativity being rained down upon you, but just keep at it and hopefully things will eventually turn around for you. University in my eyes is supposed to be a place of personal growth, development and improvement. It should be a place where ideas can be freely challenged, but throughout that process each and every student should be given the chance to learn and flourish.

Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
I have to say, though, there are two things @NIGHTBRINGER can do:
1. Stop throwing your hatred of Jar Jar in my face just because I’m one of the few people who doesn’t hate him. OK, you hate him, and that’s your opinion, but please stop showing your hate towards him all over the off topic section because it annoys me. Keep it for a forum where everyone is a Jar Jar hater. I have my fair share of hated Star Wars characters, but I don’t keep on reminding everyone else of it very much. Also, I think he’s OK, but he isn’t my absolute favourite character as he was when I was considerably younger and I don’t think he’s a ‘great character’ per se, so don’t put such words in my mouth.
2. Stop throwing your hatred of AoS in the faces of all the exclusively AoS players in the forum. I am more or less neutral in this one, but I can see that it can be annoying for those who joined the hobby after Fantasy was deprived of its support to find someone who continually says they dislike the new game system. Again, I have almost continually seen you say that you hate AoS or show some sort of dislike for it in other threads (apart from the Daughters of Khaine and they derive from fantasy anyway) and it would be like seeing a Magic the Gathering player continually bash Fantasy (or the other way around) just because it’s different to what they enjoy. When AoS first came out I was like you - I was saying ‘why did they get rid of Fantasy?’ and ‘I really don’t like the Stormcast or the heavenly scenery’ but I’ve just grown to accept AoS is here to stay and have been showing more interest in it and what others have been doing in it.

There’s a rule on Necrontyr Online that says ‘Always post constructive, useful information’, and I think that we should all follow this rule, me included - in other words, if something you’re about to say doesn’t contribute positively to a topic in a thread, don’t post it.
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I must respectfully say that this is an area where we fundamentally disagree, but please let me clarify my stance. At its core, I believe a forum is a place for the exchange of thoughts and ideas. It should be a place where opposite viewpoints can be expressed, discussed, analyzed and explored. Sometimes consensus is reached, while other times it is not; and either of those outcomes is acceptable. Now if we start to censor what can and cannot be said, the exchange of ideas dies very quickly. What type of fun or learning can be had if everyone on the forum just posts things that others agree with? Opposing ideas are naturally far more exploratory and insightful, which is why I am against restricting speech. That said, there are a few caveats to the system of thought which I described above:
  • ideas/opinions/viewpoints can be freely challenged/attacked, but those "attacks" should always be aimed at the opposing argument and never at the person proposing them
  • there are certain topics that should be limited or avoided altogether (deep political discussions, race/religion, topics that incite hatred/violence, etc). While I feel that these topics must be explored in society, a forum like this is not the place for them, because they are by nature very difficult to traverse without causing deep offense to people.
  • in regards to your point on providing solely constructive/useful/positive posts, this is a strategy I best feel applied to painting sections. Even if I were the greatest painter (which I am nowhere near :oops:) I would never demean anyone's work. That part of the forum is about providing encouragement (which I do) as well as careful points on routes of improvement (which I seldom do, because I don't have skills/knowledge to adequately do so).

Focusing in on the two points you specifically mentioned:

Jar Jar
First I should apologize for weaponizing him against you in my previous post. That clearly breaks the rule I outlined above and should be avoided. Things got a bit out of hand on both our fronts, so I acknowledge and apologize for my part in it. Aside from that, I honestly don't see why any fictional character should be exempt from ridicule or critique. I'm a bit puzzled at your statement where you say you consider him to be merely "okay" and yet it bothers you when he is insulted. You can take any character, even my favourite characters and rip them to shreds as you see fit. It won't bother me in the slightest, though I will probably debate you on the topic ;). After all, what difference does it make if you were to hate a character I love? On the flip side though, banning Jar Jar ridicule shuts down many avenues of discussion. The analysis of the comparative merits of the prequels, originals and sequels is no longer possible. Nor can we discuss good and bad characters or even aspects of characters (for why should you be able to highlight flaws within characters you dislike or even like, when others cannot do the same?). In regards to your comment on keeping Jar Jar hate for a forum where everyone is a Jar Jar hater, that isn't really possible, and would effectively mean it couldn't be discussed anywhere. We have over 6000 members (not sure how many are active, but still), there isn't likely a single character of fiction that at least one person doesn't enjoy. You have discussed characters negatively in the past who are far more popular than Jar Jar and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Are we to stop the critique of all characters? The great thing about a forum is that if we read an argument against something we love, we can choose to either provide a counter argument or just easily ignore it. An attack on any character I enjoy is not an attack on me.

Also, an most importantly, while not discussing Jar Jar would not be huge deal on its own, it opens up a very bad precedence in my opinion. Banning subjects of conversation is a very slippery slope. Where does one draw the line? First a character, then a movie, then a game, then a subject as a whole, etc. It's only a matter of time before it escalates. Systematically, all topics of conversion begin to be muted.


AoS
Most of the same sentiments from above will apply here as well. Additionally, most people on here understand my anti-AoS rhetoric is made from a fun and jovial standpoint. In fact, I often receive anti-anti-AoS comments or comments meant to induce a response from me #nighterbringertrigggered; all done with good intentions. This is nothing more than a fun interaction, and I take zero offense from any of it (truth be told I enjoy it immensely).

In reality, I don't care to persuade anyone to quit AoS (even though I may playfully say I do). I personally gain nothing from doing so. If someone were my neighbor then I would at least stand to gain a gaming partner if I were to convert them, but what difference does it make if someone from the other side of the world plays this game or that?

Also, my negative feelings towards AoS has zero bearing on my feelings towards people who LOVE AoS. That is a very important distinction. Some of my favourite members on this form are avid AoS players. That doesn't stop me from playfully giving them a hard time every now and again or them doing the same to me. Intent matters, and I would hope that the language used and the over the top unseriousness of my typical anti-AoS post would reveal that the intent is that of humor and friendly joking among friends.

There have been times when some of us have debated the relative merits of WFB, KoW, T9A and AoS. There is nothing wrong with that. We can analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the games, but at the end of the day people should play whatever they have most fun with. Afterall, someone's enjoyment of a game is just as subjective as someone's enjoy meant of eating a certain food or preferring a certain colour... it comes down to individual taste.

Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
Everything about university just bores and annoys me and it seems to have culminated in this, for which I’m very sorry. I'll make sure this doesn't happen again.
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Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
Other than that though, I’m sorry all this ever happened. Please say if there’s anything I can do to make it up to any of you. :oops: :sorry:

I feel that I have said my piece here now, so let's move on and bring this thread back on track.
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I apologize for any offense I may have caused as well. I consider you to be a valuable member of this forum. You and I may have very different viewpoints (probably more so than any other two members on the forum), but I am always interested in hearing what you have to say, even if often times I don't agree. I like to interact with different schools of thought, and if we both work towards keeping our debates on topic, we'll both only grow stronger for it. As they say, iron sharpens iron.

Cheers my friend, :)
 
To continue with my series of historically themed posts.

I'm going to overthrow the double slaan like Napoleon overthrew the revolution..

1881db28499cd0ddb845ce5482704eb5--napoleon-french-revolution.jpg
 
NIGHTBRINGER said:
That sounds like a very tough position. I can't speak much on that topic because my experience in University was the polar opposite. It might be really hard with all the negativity being rained down upon you, but just keep at it and hopefully things will eventually turn around for you. University in my eyes is supposed to be a place of personal growth, development and improvement. It should be a place where ideas can be freely challenged, but throughout that process each and every student should be given the chance to learn and flourish.
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Thanks mate - I am keeping going with it. I'm doing Software Engineering which is why I'm having such a hard time.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Jar Jar
First I should apologize for weaponizing him against you in my previous post. That clearly breaks the rule I outlined above and should be avoided. Things got a bit out of hand on both our fronts, so I acknowledge and apologize for my part in it.
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Don't worry about it - I know I am on the losing side when supporting Jar Jar, but as I have said before, Rebellions are based on hope, and I am continuing to apply hope to this cause in particular.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
Aside from that, I honestly don't see why any fictional character should be exempt from ridicule or critique. I'm a bit puzzled at your statement where you say you consider him to be merely "okay" and yet it bothers you when he is insulted.
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I think that is my younger self speaking there. I freely admit here that Jar Jar does amuse me, but I also say now that he isn't my favourite like he was when I first saw Star Wars. I've grown to more appreciate characters like Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and the Rogue One team now, although I do still have a love for the Gungans. Captain Tarpals is more my favourite Gungan character because he is a strong character - he isn't annoying and his death scene is quite poignant in the Clone Wars. I can see why Jar Jar can be annoying, especially with his squeaky voice, but several other characters, both in Star Wars and others, annoy me a lot more than Jar Jar.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
You can take any character, even my favourite characters and rip them to shreds as you see fit. It won't bother me in the slightest, though I will probably debate you on the topic ;). After all, what difference does it make if you were to hate a character I love? On the flip side though, banning Jar Jar ridicule shuts down many avenues of discussion. The analysis of the comparative merits of the prequels, originals and sequels is no longer possible. Nor can we discuss good and bad characters or even aspects of characters (for why should you be able to highlight flaws within characters you dislike or even like, when others cannot do the same?). In regards to your comment on keeping Jar Jar hate for a forum where everyone is a Jar Jar hater, that isn't really possible, and would effectively mean it couldn't be discussed anywhere. We have over 6000 members (not sure how many are active, but still), there isn't likely a single character of fiction that at least one person doesn't enjoy. You have discussed characters negatively in the past who are far more popular than Jar Jar and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Are we to stop the critique of all characters? The great thing about a forum is that if we read an argument against something we love, we can choose to either provide a counter argument or just easily ignore it. An attack on any character I enjoy is not an attack on me.
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Well, I can see why it shouldn't be banned, but I think it should still just be moderated so that it doesn't get out of hand, like posting pics of him being murdered or having violence applied to him, but then we've agreed on moderating our debates already.

NIGHTBRINGER said:
AoS
Most of the same sentiments from above will apply here as well. Additionally, most people on here understand my anti-AoS rhetoric is made from a fun and jovial standpoint. In fact, I often receive anti-anti-AoS comments or comments meant to induce a response from me #nighterbringertrigggered; all done with good intentions. This is nothing more than a fun interaction, and I take zero offense from any of it (truth be told I enjoy it immensely).

In reality, I don't care to persuade anyone to quit AoS (even though I may playfully say I do). I personally gain nothing from doing so. If someone were my neighbor then I would at least stand to gain a gaming partner if I were to convert them, but what difference does it make if someone from the other side of the world plays this game or that?

Also, my negative feelings towards AoS has zero bearing on my feelings towards people who LOVE AoS. That is a very important distinction. Some of my favourite members on this form are avid AoS players. That doesn't stop me from playfully giving them a hard time every now and again or them doing the same to me. Intent matters, and I would hope that the language used and the over the top unseriousness of my typical anti-AoS post would reveal that the intent is that of humor and friendly joking among friends.

There have been times when some of us have debated the relative merits of WFB, KoW, T9A and AoS. There is nothing wrong with that. We can analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the games, but at the end of the day people should play whatever they have most fun with. Afterall, someone's enjoyment of a game is just as subjective as someone's enjoy meant of eating a certain food or preferring a certain colour... it comes down to individual taste.
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OK, I may sound really stupid here but I didn't realise that it was more or less all for jokes. My bad :oops:

NIGHTBRINGER said:
I apologize for any offense I may have caused as well. I consider you to be a valuable member of this forum. You and I may have very different viewpoints (probably more so than any other two members on the forum), but I am always interested in hearing what you have to say, even if often times I don't agree. I like to interact with different schools of thought, and if we both work towards keeping our debates on topic, we'll both only grow stronger for it. As they say, iron sharpens iron.
Cheers my friend, :)
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That's very kind of you to say that and I thank you for it. You are certainly the best sparring opponent I've ever had in terms of arguing and I do like to see what you reply to counter my arguments. I will try my best to ensure debates remain on topic and I will maintain my Jedi composure when debating in the future!

:)
 
Lord-Marcus said:
To continue with my series of historically themed posts.

I'm going to overthrow the double slaan like Napoleon overthrew the revolution..

1881db28499cd0ddb845ce5482704eb5--napoleon-french-revolution.jpg
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Lord-Marcus said:
Nightbringer
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Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl said:
I sense a Rebellion in the works here...
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Better men have tried! ;)

Lord-Marcus said:
Because he has over 10K posts, and the threshold for the title of "Slaan" via post count is 5k
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Canas said:
Ah, that sounds logical.
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I'll be a triple Slann soon enough. :cool:
 
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