Slann
n810
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I HAVE THE POWER!!! (in terms of forum milestones)
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Slann
Aginor
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Yeah sorry @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl but concerning animal intelligence there is not even a hint of scientific evidence in your favor. And intelligence is not a matter of language either, there are plenty of intelligence tests that don't require language at all, and every average 3yr old human will beat any cat, dog, crow, parrot, chimp, elephant or dolphin any day. Bonobo apes are considered to be the most intelligent animals we know, and I wouldn't bet a dime that one of them can beat a 5yr old human in anything that requires intelligence.
Slann
Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl
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Mathematics can describe a universe (or well, any universe really as long as it's consistent...). Physics is just 1 possible description of such a universe.
Physics asks "how does this universe work". Math asks "how would any universe work". Physics only encompasses reality, Math includes the imaginary. And no the multiverse-theory does not include the imaginary as by definition it'd not be imaginary anymore.
Anyways, math wins
Also, since when does physic ask "are we alone in the universe"? That's not a question I'd give to physics (nor is how did we come into being for that matter, as from a physics point of view that's basicly just "some atoms colided and shit happened". Plus, the scale at which physics operates is of no interests for how we came around. Atoms colliding or tectonic plates moving say very little of how say culture and intelligence came into being. And no electric currents in the brain aren't a particularly good model for the creation of culture as those lack a clear way to interact with external forces which is rather relevant here
Those other traits are what allowed us to develop our intelligence. If you'd just immeadiatly pick intelligence I think you'd quickly find yourself quite dead. Whereas if the other traits remain there is the oppertunity for intelligence to reappear.
Also another big trait is our ability to get bored and go wander of to the other side of the hill to look if something interesting is there. Or to stick a stick and stone together and see if it magically becomes an axe. It's quite wonderfull.
Wasn't the most recent theory with respect to Neaderthals just that there were a load more homo sapiens so they just sorta got overrun and absorbed them into their branch. I remember a theory that it could partially explain the existence of certain variations of autism. People that have those have specific variations have stronger Neaderthal heritage in their DNA and certain behaviours do correspond to what would make sense in their groups (e.g. Neaderthals mostly lived in smaller groups in quieter places hence a dislike for "loud" noises as these noises would indicate a bear charging at you, whereas homo sapiens lived in bigger groups hence "loud" noises correspond to the safety of the village)
also how exactly are crows our equals? They're smart sure, but what standard puts em on equal ground? (or Dolphins, or any of the others you mentioned)
Are you really proposing that the intelligence of elephants, dolphins and crows are on par with that of humans?
There are many ways to tackle this:
- Achievements - humans have advanced mathematics & science, we have created art & music, we have built cities, wrote books, landed on the moon, created medicine, harnessed the power of the atom, interconnected the world via the web, etc.
- Biology - we simply have more neural connections than any other animal on the planet. Our brains are literally and undeniably more advanced.
- Dominance - the cream rises to the top. Our advancements have helped us rise as the most dominant species on the planet. The animals you listed are completely at our mercy (which is a power we sadly abuse). If they are so smart, why haven't then thought up any countermeasures against us?
- Common Sense - I really can't stress this enough, the evidence is so overwhelmingly in our favor, that it is blatantly obvious that we are more intelligent than elephants, dolphins and crows. Don't believe me, tell a few random people about your theory and see their reaction. I've given you a basis for why we are more intelligent as a species, now please provide me with some intellectual feats that your animals can do that we can not.
Imagination arises from intelligence; imagination is a type of intelligence or at the very least a direct product of it. Mind you that does not mean that all intelligent people are imaginative, because there are many different types of "intelligences" (the specific breakdown of which is still highly studied in psychology). However, if you were to split all the people in the world into two groups, with all the most intelligent people in one group and the least intelligent in another, I'd bet you everything I own that the more intelligent group would demonstrate greater overall imagination.
Heh, it’s funny you put common sense as an argument yet the majority of people these days have none.
Also, humans are not the cream - if we were the cream there would be no wars, no evil dictators, no poachers, no guns, no modern culture and nothing else that makes us barbaric and savage. In addition, animals have only been truly at our mercy with the invention of the gun, and that is a cowardly weapon for cowards. In fact when you take away everything that we have created and you glorify so much, we are pretty pathetic as a species. No claws, tiny blunt teeth, no venom, no poison, relatively slow movement speed, terrible eyesight, poor sense of smell. It’s only our imagination that has caused us to become so powerful.
Maybe I was going a bit far as to say that those animals are equal to us, but:
Example 1: Crows have been known to complete activities that young children can’t - @Aginor is wrong there by a wide margin. In fact 3-year old children are a terrible example.
Example 2: Elephants and dolphins continue to show the care and respect towards the young and old of their kind that used to be demonstrated in ancient human cultures such as the Celts and the Native Americans, but has disappeared for many hundreds of years in human society after these people’s were absorbed by races that were crueller (The Romans and American colonists respectively)
Example 3. These animals don’t do any of the mentally retarded things some people do, e.g. Kill themselves, murder others in cold blood, e.t.c.
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Slann
Canas
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A part of what we define as intelligence is imagination. When given a completly new task with no instructions you'l need imagination by default to even get started. Intelligence is needed to grow imagination, but intelligence without imagination won't really get anywhere.
If you're going to go by that logic it'd be more accurate to say that Math is the hammer, forge and metal while physics is the more specialised tools you forge with it. Also, technicly those tools are still math. It's just a sub-set of it. E.g. math is all tools, physics is just the screwdrivers.
Well yea, physics is used to actually figure out the anwsers (in so much as we build tools to observe the anwser with it) but physics isn't the one that posed those questions to begin with.
Our resilience is actually a fairly insane difference with other animals, or well among comparable animals. There's some small insects, and microscopical animals that can take more punishment than we can, but those aren't exactly our competition. However, there's no similarly sized mammals that can deal as well with trauma. Our sheer ability to deal with pain, heal wounds & continue onward even when handicapped is pretty much unrivalled among our competition. I would say that that one in combination with intelligence was what put us ahead. Basicly the ability to push through the trauma actually allows us to make use of our intelligence. The early humans could take a crappy spear and try to stab a tiger with it & survive despite the tiger "winning" the first few fights and doing far more damage with its much superiour craws. A more fragile creature would've died long before he figured out how to make the spear sturdy, sharp and long enough to actually beat the tiger.
As with imagination, a certain degree of intelligence is needed to be able to be curious. However, without curiousity intelligence won't get far either. It's a self reinforcing system.
If I remember correctly the most intelligent monkeys managed an IQ around 80 or 90 or something. Which is slightly above people with proper mental issues. They're basicly at about the level of people who'l never manage more than the most basic jobs (say flipping burgers at macdonalds) but can live unsupervised.
Slann
Aginor
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I have high appreciation for animals but unless you show me at least a scientific paper I call B.S. on that post of yours.
And not only about the intelligence thing but also about the body.
Humans do NOT have bad eyes. In fact we have extraordinarily good eyes, only very few animals have better ones. Having a good image processor behind them (our brain, again) makes them even better.
We can endure high and low temperatures like almost no animal can, we can survive with very little food or water for extended periods of time.
We can make tools. That alone is worth more than any specific body trait.
We are pretty good in many things. The above are just a few examples.
Also you are mixing stuff up. Half of the things you mention (like morals, being peaceful, and caring for their young/old) are not related to intelligence.
Oh and one last point: I suggest you stop with the insults.
Slann
Aginor
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About the math and physics topic:
There is no competition between them. For most sciences you could say they are based on physics so yeah in the end physics is "on top" although it is kinda silly to say that since only using pure physics would get you nowhere.
Math is different. Math is the language that science is written in. It is the tool that enables us to verify our results and to describe them.
There is no competition between them. For most sciences you could say they are based on physics so yeah in the end physics is "on top" although it is kinda silly to say that since only using pure physics would get you nowhere.
Math is different. Math is the language that science is written in. It is the tool that enables us to verify our results and to describe them.
Slann
Canas
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War has been observed in several animal species (ranging from ants & bees, various apes... basicly anything that lives as a larger community and animals that live on their own still fight eachother for territory)
Cats play with their food which is really just torturing something smaller than them.
People have observed necrophilic gay ducks (yup, that's a thing that happend)
A lot of communal animals have a very strict hierarchy where the boss gets to do basicly whatever he wants, so they don't do well on the dictator front either.
Defining modern culture as a whole as evil is rather a stretch (and raises the question, what'd be good?)
No guns isn't much of an improvement. Claws kill you just as dead....
So meh, sticking with just animals wouldn't be an actual improvement. You'd need to progress to one of those higher societies to get rid of them (in theory at least... in practise chances are you're never going to get rid of these things)
Our resilience is amazing
Over a prolonged period we are the absolute fastest and can go the furtherest. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can march like a human can.
We can survive in a relative large set of enviroments when compared to similar animals (only things that survive in more tend to be microscopical)
Our mental capacities win by any metric we've managed to invent.
Our individual senses aren't the best, but they aren't the worst by any stretch either, and more importantly the combination is among the best. Very few animals can both see and smell better than us. We're generalists, not specialists.
There's quite some aspects in which we win over our competition and potential predators. It's not just one aspect that wins the day.
As the xkcd link pointed out, math is the most "pure". Where other sciences are based on physics that is based on math.
Calling Math the language is somewhat appropriate. But if Math is the language used to describe things than physics (or Chemistry, or whatever) is a story written in that language. Both of which are then tools used to describe the universe (or a potential universe). However the story is part of the language, not the other way around
Slann
Lord-Marcus
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Holy crap were having philosophical debate levels of post length in here
Skink Chief
ravagekitteh
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I was under the impression it was about how many posts people have made
Slann
Canas
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That somehow filled 18 pages? Good run
Slann
Aginor
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Yeah, so I'd probably call this derailment an improvement. 
And for the record I have to correct my earlier statement a bit: There is one sub species of crows (New Caledonian Crow) that is vastly more intelligent than other crows. Some individual crows of that species can sometimes carry out a few very specific intelligence related tasks better than a five year old can. So...yay for crows? Still not a match for humans.
And for the record I have to correct my earlier statement a bit: There is one sub species of crows (New Caledonian Crow) that is vastly more intelligent than other crows. Some individual crows of that species can sometimes carry out a few very specific intelligence related tasks better than a five year old can. So...yay for crows? Still not a match for humans.
Skink Chief
ravagekitteh
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With regards to the debate about animal intelligence, while I don't think there are any animals with our levels of intelligence (at least that we can prove seeing as we have no way of knowing what truly goes on in their heads), there are plenty of animals that showcase relatively high intelligence. You have apes and fish (see Blue Planet II) using tools, and my personal favourite animal, the Orca, has a level of adaptability that as far as I am aware, is surpassed only by us. Not particularly surprising that after us, they are also the animals that are the most widely spread in terms of where they are found
Slann
n810
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Think I'll throw some more fuel on this fire....
https://list25.com/25-most-intelligent-animals-on-earth/
https://list25.com/25-most-intelligent-animals-on-earth/
Slann
Aginor
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@n810 that list is...weird. As if it was written by someone who doesn't quite understand what the definition of intelligence is.
For example the ants. Ants are cool, and what they can do is very impressive. But in a list of 25 most intelligent animals ants are definitely not in. Their behaviour is mostly predetermined as big parts if their brains are literally hardwired.
In fact they are a great example how an animal can be successful without being intelligent.
But yeah some animals have an astonishing set of abilities. The problem for most is that their intelligence is focussed on very specific areas. In one paper I read about squirrels some years ago, one of the findings was that squirrels are good at observing and planning ahead to obtain food, but as soon as the task wasn't related to geometric problems (timing jumps, pulling strings to open doors, such things) they became significantly worse.
It sounds a bit funny but that instantly reminded me of Howard Gardner's "theory of multiple intelligences". I don't see a lot of evidence supporting that thesis for humans - it seems we are really generalists - it may be true for some animals.
...but then it might just be learning. Abilities are not only intelligence based. In fact experience can make up for lack of intelligence and vice versa. So sometimes "clever" behaviour can be observed without a lot of intelligence being involved.
For example the ants. Ants are cool, and what they can do is very impressive. But in a list of 25 most intelligent animals ants are definitely not in. Their behaviour is mostly predetermined as big parts if their brains are literally hardwired.
In fact they are a great example how an animal can be successful without being intelligent.
But yeah some animals have an astonishing set of abilities. The problem for most is that their intelligence is focussed on very specific areas. In one paper I read about squirrels some years ago, one of the findings was that squirrels are good at observing and planning ahead to obtain food, but as soon as the task wasn't related to geometric problems (timing jumps, pulling strings to open doors, such things) they became significantly worse.
It sounds a bit funny but that instantly reminded me of Howard Gardner's "theory of multiple intelligences". I don't see a lot of evidence supporting that thesis for humans - it seems we are really generalists - it may be true for some animals.
...but then it might just be learning. Abilities are not only intelligence based. In fact experience can make up for lack of intelligence and vice versa. So sometimes "clever" behaviour can be observed without a lot of intelligence being involved.
Slann
Aginor
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Scavengers in general tend to be more intelligent than other animals, sometimes they even beat predators.
Crows are awesome. Although it has to be mentioned that most crows in the world never reach the level of intelligence like the one in the video you posted.
Crows are awesome. Although it has to be mentioned that most crows in the world never reach the level of intelligence like the one in the video you posted.
Slann
NIGHTBRINGER
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Ironic!
You really seem to have an awfully high opinion of yourself. Exactly what creative and imaginative feats have you accomplished that so thoroughly trounce your fellow human beings?
I don't think you understood the context within which that statement was made. That cream of the crop statement was made in terms of our dominance on the planet and it was presented as supporting evidence for our superior intellectual advantage over the animal kingdom. You're bringing up your own perceived ethical and moral qualms with humanity, which has no relevance to the statement I made or the topic at hand (animal vs human intelligence). However, if you really want to get into it, humans have demonstrated both the most heinous and selfish acts in the history of the planet as well as the most altruistic ones. As a species we exist at both ends of the spectrum. There are evil individuals like Hitler and Stalin, but there also those that have risked their lives or even given up their lives to help strangers (or members from other species).
In regards to guns, animals have been at our mercy long before then (just not to the same degree as today). Show me which animals could match the might of the Roman Empire for instance. Long before firearms, humans had dominance over the animal kingdom. The building of walls, fences, castles, the bow & arrow and traps all put us ahead of other species. Consider also our ancestors ability to utilize other animals... such as the horse. Our ability to plan ahead, strategize and work together provided us with an absolutely unfair advantage. In short, we can out think and bring down prey that should otherwise be too powerful for us to handle.
Also, I'm not sure what guns being cowardly weapons (as you put it) has to do with our discussion. I'd probably rethink that; I'd wager the soldiers that gave their life in WW2 (just as an example) are probably a lot more courageous than you or I sitting behind our keyboards.
That proves my point exactly. If we are such a pathetic species, as you suggest (which isn't completely true as @Canas has pointed out), then our intellectual advantage over the rest of the animal kingdom becomes ever more apparent. Despite the glaring weaknesses you pointed out, we have managed to obtain complete dominance over every living thing on the planet. If Elephants, Dolphins and Crows equal us in terms of cognitive capacity, then they should surely have risen to the top of the pyramid.
Only two living things threaten our dominance over the world, ourselves and the lowly virus (which isn't quite technically classed as a living thing anyways)
My sister teaches kindergarten kids (around age 5), she has told me that she has taught some of the brightest kids in the class division; as in math. Admittedly, this does not apply to all the kids in her class, but please show me the crow that can perform division. Also, even if kids of age 3 can't perform activities that crows can perform, there are other activities that 3 year old kids can perform that are beyond the ability of a crow. And we are only talking about humans at age 3, who have nowhere near the intelligence of a 7 year old or a 12 year old, let alone a fully mature adult.
First off there are many people that do genuinely show care/respect towards both the young and the elderly. I can't speak for all countries, but here in Canada, most people are good and decent folks. Secondly, you are deviating off course once again; the topic of discussion is intelligence, not empathy and caring. Just like before, there are people that have shown levels of kindness that exceeds anything seen in the animal world. We as a species exhibit both the best and the worst that this world has to offer.
Interestingly enough, a correlation has been shown between intelligence and cruelty/murder. Chimpanzees (probably the smartest animal after us) have been seen killing other animals for sport (killing animals that pose no threat to them and leaving behind the carcass without consuming it). In fact, they have been seen forming groups and hunting down other chimps, who they subsequently brutally tear apart and kill for no particular reason (and they travel great distances to do this)
This coming from a guy who thinks Jar Jar is a great character and that dolphins/crows/elephants can match human intelligence. I'd probably take a good long look in the mirror before you start bashing the intelligence of others.
That said, this "debate" is starting to devolve into personal attacks. This is a pretty friendly forum and there really is no place for it here. A younger version of myself might have been more eager to jump at the challenge but I think it best not to bring that kind of negativity into this forum. If you wish to continue a fair and honest debate, I am more than willing to. I have nothing personally against you, nor do I wish to. If you wish to discontinue our debate, that is okay too.
I honestly feel sorry for you in a way (and I don't mean this as an attack), I can only imagine what type of people surround you. You have such a low opinion of people. According to you, people are no more intelligent than animals, they are cruel, they are pathetic, they lack any imagination, they are sheep (from a previous debate we had), and so on. My suggestion is that you find some more positive people to hang around with. I might just be very lucky, but the people in my life are nothing like how you describe humanity to be. There are terrible people out there, but I wouldn't pin that on humanity as a whole.
I think you have a lot of growing up to do, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Maybe start looking at people in a more positive light rather than thinking that you are the only one that exemplifies the positive traits of humanity.
Slann
NIGHTBRINGER
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You make some good points. I think it is fair to say that those other traits have had a fair bit to do with our survival as a species. As our intelligence was still in its infancy, those traits/skills/abilities are the ones that helped ensure that our intelligence would be given the time it needed to flourish. However, as our intelligence did evolve, we slowly relied less and less on those attributes to a point where today they play little importance in our survival (not saying they don't contribute at all, but it is our intelligence that is the dominate factor).
So I'd summarize that the other traits you listed helped us survive among the rest of the animal kingdom, but it was ultimately our specialized mental capacities that allowed us to rise above it!
This discussion also reminded me of Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences (I did a presentation on it once). The theory is far from perfect, but it does hold some merit in terms of the cognitive abilities of learners. It is definitely a better theory than the concept of a single general intelligence that was proposed earlier in history. People definitely exhibit different levels of intelligence throughout different contexts and situations.
I think we are pretty much on the same page in regards to the relationship between intelligence and imagination.
Also, imagination often requires higher order thinking skills (which is a more true measure of real intelligence), as opposed to route memorization which can often be disguised and falsely presented as true intelligence.
Not all intelligent people are necessarily imaginative, but all imaginative people are intelligent.