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8th Ed. How to beat the new vampires

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The Omen

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OK, I've come up against the new vampires three times now and each time it's been a massive defeat.

I'm hoping someone can give me a few ideas on how to beat the following:

a horde of 40 Grave Guard, I know most people say "just stay away from it" but that is easier said than done

a horde of 40 Crypt Ghouls, I've had some luck against these with large blocks of Saurus, but only once and I did manage to roll well.

Varghulf (sp?) I've tried to poison it to death, but it's just so damn fast and once it's in combat I'm toast.

I've tried to use salamanders like I usually do, but with 3-4 vamps all raising the units back up I'm not doing enough damage to clear them ready for combat.

I'm having no problems with the new stuff, but really stuck with the "older" stuff in the new book.

One thing I did think about was taking saurus blocks that are only 4 wide, this should mean he wastes a lot of points on the horde units when most of the guys can't attack, but not sure about that.
 
I think a lore of Light slann will work fairly well against them. I also recommend using the EOTG. Since they have no war machines, there is no worry of your stegadon being taken out early on.

Your idea to run your saurus 4 wide sounds ok, but you would lose your rank bonus when you do that. That would negate the attacks that you are saving.

You could also force him to come to your unit(s) of saurus, then flank charge him with a skrox unit or with another saurus unit. Add that to the EOTG and you should do ok.
 
You might want to consider death lore on the slann in a block of TG and just run him straight at his highest necromancer. Then spam snipping spells to kill him off.


Another suggestion is to let him charge you, (so there is two rounds of combat before he can start rezing)
Bring along the cube of darkness and (hopefully) use it to shut down his magic phase when he finally gets it.
 
graveguard aint scary due greatweapons, one lesson against vc is, dispell that ASF reroll spell, IT HURTS!
using lore of light, vargulfs are toast before they can say var! redirect ghouls with skinks, to make sure only one of there units hits your units :) TG handle grave gaurd off quite fast boosted with light ;) those are just my experiences tho :)
 
death slann, sniping the general and spell casters to make his army crumble you can also do purple sun on the 2 horde units if its really needed, don't recomend this since the miscast will kill your own slann.

some salamanders schooting at the 40 grave guards should do prity well you should be able to hit a lot of them since the bases are 20mm and there are so many in one unit also even with hand weapon schield they have no armour safe left so any 5 is a kill, unfortunatly they will not flee since there undead so no panic test ;p

varghalfs are not THAT strong 5 wounds with 4 regan so 10 poinsions will kill it with 2X6 chameolons skinks = 24 shot = 4 poinsion = dead in turn 2 or 3, ofcourse it depands on the deployments if you will be able to do that.

if you are able to snipe the general the ghouls can not marge so they run 4"" over the battle field so they might make it to you at turn 6 XD.

hope tihs might help you =)
 
thanks for the tips so far, a few points

Light Slann is what I have been using, and it's the only reason I pretty much manage to kill anything at all, though I might give a death slann a try and see how that works out.

EOTG has been tried and worked well in the first game, unfortunately now it always seems to end up in combat with a unit of skeletons with 5 wraiths in the front rank (how he always manages to position that unit infront of the steg is still something I can't figure out), can't fight in combat and the burning spell just hits the skeletons - it doesn't really make it past the second round. I have tried to get a character in there too, but at movement 4 he can easilly be tied up by dire wolfs until the steg is dead.

Grave guard arn't scary because of great weapons? Maybe I'm playing different grave guard but I'm losing about 15 saurus per round of combat, my attacks back manage around 7-8, which just get rezzed back up.

Flank charges are a good idea, but hard to pull off when your facing 2 units 10 men wide - they take up around 30% of the board and he'll usually put something expendable on the outside of them so that you can't hit the flank anyway.

Spell wise I don't really struggle from damage spells, it's just the raise dead ones that kill me., infact I don;t think I've ever seen him try a different spell yet.

sals do do ok, like I said I can usually kill off around 15+ before the units get into combat, but even that isn't much help against units that start out 40+ and kill 2 of my models for each 1 of his once in combat. The fact that they can't flee is a serious dent in the Sals effectiveness.

Cube of darkness is a good idea though, might give me the edge I need. I should point out that all the games so far my opponant has managed to always roll very high for his magic phase, meaning I usually run out of dispell scrolls after the first turn and he is able to cast raise dead 5-6 times per round, I know there isn't much that can be done about this and the games might have been very different has he not had this luck.
 
4 wide? are you playing 6th edition or something? go 5 wide...
 
The burning alignment spell is a magical attack, it will hit the wraiths as well as the skeletons (and at Str 5 for Undead).
 
Arli said:
The burning alignment spell is a magical attack, it will hit the wraiths as well as the skeletons (and at Str 5 for Undead).
Click to expand...

True, but if they are in the unit the spell affects the unit and not the wraiths, a unit of 25 skeletons costs next to nothing and I'd have to cause 25 wounds before I start ot effect the wraiths, by which time the EOTG is dead. Atleast thats how I know the rules, but I'd be happy to find out I am wrong.
 
Lord Tsunami said:
4 wide? are you playing 6th edition or something? go 5 wide...
Click to expand...

Nope, 8th, but the thinking here was to reduce the number of attacks he can make. In a horde for each 3 attacks I get (2 for the first saurus and 1 support) he gets 6 (3 ranks and smaller bases) the thinking is that I will lose the +3 rank bonus, but also lose 4-5 less Saurus. Weather it will work or not is a different matter.
 
The Omen said:
True, but if they are in the unit the spell affects the unit and not the wraiths, a unit of 25 skeletons costs next to nothing and I'd have to cause 25 wounds before I start ot effect the wraiths, by which time the EOTG is dead. Atleast thats how I know the rules, but I'd be happy to find out I am wrong.
Click to expand...


Ah, I was not thinking in those terms. Are wraiths considered heroes in that set up? If so, that is a lot of points in heroes. If the VC player is bringing that kind of build, you should take Lore of Death and snipe his Lord or hero Vampires and Necromancers. Make sure to kill all the vampires with the lore of vampires. Those guys can pick up the generalship of the army to keep them from crumbling.
 
I presume they are heroes, either that or he has 5 champions.....

The more I think on it the more I realise death will be the way to go, my gut says light cause it's great for the buffs and the damage spells do extra damage against undead, but if I can get rid of the characters then that'll be so much better.

On another note, I don't think wraiths are all that expensive, but then with the exception of being etherial they also arn't all that good either.
 
In order for him to put 5 of them in a unit of skeletons, they have to be heroes (at least). That means that he cannot take vampires or necromancers with those points. This is good as when you snipe his general, he will not have any heroes or lords to step up and take control of the army (or will have only one backup).
 
if you are going to go below 5 wide ranks you will also lose your rank bonus not to mention steadfast. you would have to keep winning combat or risk running away. its insanely risky at best. and if you are going for that approach anyway, why not do the full monty and go 1 wide? you are losing all the benefits of rank anyway :P

I wouldnt recommend the approach though.

skeleton units can be handled by sauruses if you maximize your frontage. the maths is very clear on that.

ghouls are just sauruses with S3 (i dont have the book here, but they are S3, right?) with poison, but no armour. i am not saying "any unit of sauruses will beat ghouls any day of the week, but they are on par with them at least.

grave guard are tough as nails (but not as tough as sauruses ;)) and hit very hard. they are more or less identical to dwarf hammerers. how do you deal with hammerers? you delay them with skinks and shoot them with salamanders and magic and you only move in for teh kill if they are very low on models. unlike hammerers these guys can be healed, so the "kill moment" may never come. if so, treat them as you would a chosenstar. it is under the heading "do not touch" together with acid and "yourself" in the christian dictionary :P


Overall, none of these units warrant any special tactics. they can be treated like other unit of the same power level (point cost). some can be engaged (skeletons) and some can not (grave guard). sauri with T8 can engage some things that T4 sauri can not. Grinding down these guys will be very hard since they can heal, so it would be wisest to try and focus on one unit at a time with magic/shooting and then pounce on it with infantry and stegadon to finish it off in one round. remember that each enemy you kill (assuming you win combat) equals two dead enemies due to the combat results. it may very well be worth maximizing your frontage vs the weaker undead units. but they are no different from any other units in the game. if your opponent has one big expensive horde ofc you cant engage it with 20 unbuffed sauri. Its the same thing if you are facing a dwarf or orc opponent. if he deploys a 450 point horde, you will have to weaken it before you send in your 250 point saurus unit. The OP sounds much more like "hordes of elite (semi elite) units are dangerous" than "undead in particular are dangerous".

ps. so he can heal dead guys back? well two can play at that game. regrowth ftw :P
 
Ghouls are S3 saurus, but with poisoned attacks - when your rolling 40+ attacks thats a lot of auto wounds. it makes a big difference. Plus add in the fact they are half the price of saurus warriors and you see why I struggle. Not complaining about army mechanics here, just pointing out why I struggle here.

In many ways you are right, my point is "elite hordes are very hard", but my bigger point is "how do you handle an elite horde that can just res up anything you kill?" Hammerers, Chosen and all other elite hordes I flame and magic down so that by the time they hit they have about 10-15 men left - with the undead that doesn't work cause they just res back all the kills.

I'm well aware of the logic of keep out of it's way - but the only way to do that would be to spend the entire game running away from his army since he keeps them close together, which would only result in (a very boring) draw.

I must be playing different Saurus/Grave Guard to you though, as I said before I often lose 14-15 models per round and only do 7-8 casualties in return

I wouldn't like to get into a grind with undead, I may have regrowth - but you're never going to beat 3-4 vampires repeat casting ressing spells.
 
Alright. I had this problem in 7th too man the raise dead spam orks too damn good. I have not played the new VC and not even in 8th ed but the tactic is the same as 7th ed.

I have beaten it with some luck but with a good strategy too.

1: When he is in his casting phase watch EVERY cast. He rolls a 1 or a 2 he is done casting for the turn. Next wizard. Period. I do not know if the casting for VC has changed but if it hasn't changed to say he can cast constantly even if he fails a spell he loses confidence like the rest of us. ( Last edition it was he can contiually cast the same spell over and over again so if that is the same sure he can use his spells over and over but if he fails then he can't) Also watch the power pool. I hate to say it but many of the people that play VC like to win more than they like to follow the rules.... no offense meant to anyone but everytime I have played a VC they have cheated. Then claimed ignorance later. Also bound spells take dice to get off now just for your records so if he tries the and this goes off. Say nu-uh no dice no goin off for you! :P

2): save your dispel srolls and dice. A lot of spells they use are used just to draw you into wasting your magic defnses. Kind of goes back to 1 just watch his magic phase with unending scrutiny.

3:Becalming Cogitation. Period. That should be enough for you to understadn lol JK :P When he sets up his characters look for the one in the elite units like GG. SMother their puny spells. These guys are tooled to beef those units to beyond fightable. Once he has done his first magic phase you will know who is lvl 4 and who is lvl 2. Becalming the lvl 4s (betcha its the guy in the elite unit :P ) and use your dispel dice against the lvl 2s.

3: EOTG is good but I find that Skink Chief with Steggie Warspear on AS is far better. You said that he likes to prtect his hordes flank. Well thats where the warspear comes in. You just steam roll it with a whole ton of magical Impact hits. Try to set up your steggie so that when you wipe the smaller unit. He over runs into the flank of the horde for a whole ton of combat res. and when you get the plus 10 or so combat res you kill t 20 guys for the price of a charge. This has worked for me alot. My old VC buddy liked to use etheral on my EOTG too but when he ran into the Skinkchief the cheif made short work of his wraiths.

4:Skrox units are king aginst skeles and zombies. The don't die in droves as usual against anyone else. So throwing a horde against a horde could be a good idea. The krox can wollop on them and the sknikns give you the static combat rez. I have heard that Skrox go well agiainst elites too. So throwing them against the GG granted they will die in droves but then you can save your more expensive SW for the flank of those units. giving you alot of damage from an area where not many attacks can come back. I would say two hordes of SKrox with 3 krox and as many skinks as you can fit should work.

5:COC work so good against VC elites with no KB save them for fighting those pesky Varghulfs and the newer guys. The COC can hack thorugh units like that. Give em a SV to deal with etherals just givehim a magical weapon.

That's all I can really think of off the top ofmy head.

Hope you stomp his guts oyut man!
 
in my armybook ghouls cost 10 points (edit: i think so at least. i lent it to a friend of mine so i cant check :P)
 
Oh, maybe I missheard him when he was telling me the points cost of them then.

It never occured to me that the steg war spear would make the impact hits magical - thats a fantastic idea. I might see if I can squeeze a chief on steg and an EOTG in my next game, keep them together and see the look on his face when I use the chief to wipe out the wraiths, Once I get 2 stegs going into the flanks it'll be a very different game.

Also like the idea of trying to throw a skink horde against the GG, sure they'll die in droves, but my saurus are doing that anyway, I might not even bother with the krox and just use massed skinks, it's certainly worth a try. 100 Skinks will take some getting through, at at only 500 points isn't a major loss if they all die.

Thanks for these 2 tips, I really think I can use these to tip the balance my next game.
 
Put at least one kroxigor in the skink horde. The unit will then cause fear and cancel out the fear from the GG. I know with cold blooded, you are likely to be ok on the fear test, but it couldn't hurt.
 
Yeah Like I sadi before. For some reason VC players like to lie and cheat in my Experience. No offense meant.

AS to the Cheif yeah its in our FAQ/Errata. The impact hits are magical. Your friend is going to be surprised by that =p :pigeon: mmm steam roll =p. I don't know what points you guys are playing but getting a chief and an EOTG is going to be very pricey. But on the plus he wont be able to kill them with WM. If you can weasel them in then I would stack them on a flank together. He will pay alot of attention to the Engine and will want it dead so protect it with your cheif. Throw your sarus block on the other side and flank with them. You should be fine.


I thought of another way to get him too. GO life with your slann. I know you dont wnat a grind but if you just dwellers that unit of skeles or zombies.....They all disappear. Even GG at str 4 will lose a third of their number on average. so 40 trun tino 30. or 25. just like that. He will be very sore pressed to raise that many back quickly. Just keep using dwellers just make sure to get off Throne of Vines or use the cupped hands to hurt one of his mages too. On a plus that horde of skinks.... throw em at the GG and then start to dwellers them!. =p It can go into combat I beleive =) Also remember that if you do use dwellers his characters dont get a look out sir roll as it is a test. Granted his vamps will probably get by just foine but if the are STR 5 and he rolls a 6....Vamp Dead =) no save no nothin =) SHould piss him off then you can laugh maniacally =p



Best of Luck!
 
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