8th Ed. Help Choosing An army?

[Andy140491]

Hi guys

I've been out of Fantasy for a very long time, and looking to get back into it!

I started by purchasing The high elves limited edition rulebook (i have a friend thats very pushy and opinionated) and informed me that for the army that i wanted High elves would be the best bet. He's also a huge fan of 'elven' fantasy so go figure :/

I wanted an army that focused on heavy magic (either buffing or destroying) i just like magical themed armies, and i also wanted a couple of monsters to boot, with the option to make deathstars (not because i rely on them... just because i find them fun) and he steered me away from lizardmen telling me alot of their units are redundant and useless. They got no decent upgrades in 8th, and only nerfs. And now telling me that after the end times stuff is over lizardmen might not be around due to 9th edition rumours.

What i want to know from a community such as yourselves is.. is that remotely true? are High elves better in every way? better magic and monsters?

Are slaans good magic users? Are their monsters viable? Can you make Lizard Deathstars?.... And mostly... is it worth collecting them over High elves?... I feel like im just sticking to them due to the limited edition book?? I actually prefer lizard models...so if it wasnt for the negativity surrounding the lizards for me i'd more then likely go for them. Just with my friend saying i'd be better off with high elves its very off putting.

Can you guys help? :/ Thankyou

 

[Ixt]

Well, I'm glad to say that I've crushed High Elves many times.

As far as Lizardmen go, I find the army kind of 'meh.'

If magic is your thing, then playing with the ET:Khaine rules would be a good move. In my opinion, Slann suffer greatly under the standard 8th edition magic rules. I've heard a lot of positives about Slann in the Khaine system, however.

Slann are capable of taking Lorenaster of High Magic with the ability to drop previously cast spells in order to generate spells from new lores, or knowing all the 8 Battle Magic signature spells - pretty nifty, though very, very expensive.

As far as everything else goes, we aren't especially good (by comparison) at anything except redirecting.

Mediocre shooting, okay-sometimes-I-guess combat, decent movement, but nothing that really jumps out when compared to most other armies. I mean, Scar Vets are pretty sweet, yes, but still. It all comes back to magic.

I haven't played under ET:Khaine, so I don't know, but it seems like a good magic phase could turn our army into a powerhouse.

 

[Rettile]

Overall, HE are more powerful than lizardmen, but our army is not too weak to compete. HE have more powerful casters if you mean raw casting ability, but Slanns are way more durable than any elf wizard and are the most versatile wizards in the game, expecially with Khaine magic. Our fighter heroes and lords outclass elven ones and many others, but our hero-level wizards are worse than HE's ones because of their limited lore selection. They can vassal some spells for a Slann, tho, and this rule can be really overpowered in many situations. Our core choices are limited, but skinks are one of the best chaff units in the game, and even if their shooting is short ranged and they have poor BS many opponents fear them because of their poison, so don't underhestimate LM shooting. Saurus warriors are not considered good in competitive settings, but they are not bad: people don't use them simply because skinks are too good (skirmisher version obv). We don't have core cavalry, so HE beat us this round, but we have 3 kinds of cavalry in the special section, and 2 of them are fast flying monstrous cavalry. We have some of the best scouts in the game aswell and many monsters. We don't have a real deathstar but temple guards are a solid unit, expecially with a slann with them. Oh, and we have salamanders. Love them. We don't have things like white lions with the banner of the world dragon or frost phoenixes, but it's not because we're underpowered, it's because HE are OVERpowered

 

[Andy140491]

I assume you all play lizardmen over high elves though??

What makes you stay with lizardmen over high elves?? I mean IF high elves are better than lizardmen, has that been consistent throughout editions???

I've also read that in the end times fluff that apparently the oldest slaan says to leave the old world and start an exodus.. So its unsure whether they'll be around for 9th. As lizard players can you guys deal with wood elves? That's the army my friend plays and he's always got an answer to everything .. and is the main reason why I've been put off so many armies.

Are there any pros to lizardmen. .. All I've read so far are negative things :/

 

[Rettile]

Once you start collecting an army, loosing and winning side by side with your models, reading and inventing fluff.. you start loving it

and elves are not better: they are arrogant and girl-like pointy ears bastards, LM are waaaay more badass
We have dinosaurs! Well, actually everything in our army is cool, even if something is not so good on the battlefield. And as I told, LM are not a weak army: all the enemy forces fear LM, because they have all the tools necessary to beat anyone, the problem is you cannot field everything in one list, but all armies share this problem. Regarding the end times and 9th edition we cannot help you because we're trying just like you to predict what is going to happen (personally i think and hope Slanns will stay), and regarding WE... they're a tough matchup for anyone, but if you just drop an army because you can't beat them you'll never win since you have to know and understand your army to get some glory. And yeah, lizzies have their pros: great magic, great fighters, chaff&chaff&chaff&goldenchaff, monsters, reliable units (and some unreliable lol), quick units, lots of vanguards and so on. They're not an "easy" army like - let's say - warriors of chaos. Or elves, if you ask me. But with good movement phases and good tactics they can be brutal. If you just want an army which counters a bit woodelves i'd say go with skavens, vampires, OnG or ogres... or woodelves... BUT this is just my opinion

 

[Skinquisitor]

Its hard to decide wich army is better, liz or he. In some aspects liz, in others he.
In my opinion:
- slann is one of the best casters wfhb has to offer, in my opinion only vampire lords and demon princeses can compete with him, and thats due to their melee abilities. In 7th edition, slann was The Caster, without question.
- we have the most effective shooting, poison>mundane. Our shooters are cheaper, agile, can fill more roles, and are more effective. Skinks are OP. I thought thell cost 8-9 points per model with the 8th ed rulebook, but they just got a leadership neft. If you organise them well, that woulndt be a problem.
- melee heroes: no high elf character can compete against our cowboys, the only exeption might be the guy on the frost phoenix, but he is rarely seen. Btw, if you see one flying around with starlance, it is wise to use arcane unforging on that guy.
- deathstars? I wouldnt call high elf silverhelms with some elf character in it a deathstar. On the other hand, lizzies have cold one cavalry, if you put in 3-4 cowboys, field tetto'eko, then if everything goes as the old ones planned, none will stand in their way. They smash almost anything.

High elves can compete us in mobility, they are slightly better cuz they have more potent flyers. Lizardmen monsters are good, in my opinion the strongest is the ancient stegadon>bastiladon>carnosaur>stegadon>troglodon.

My last point is: check out the models. Lizzies are more badass, without questions. High elves are just meh, poor little ***s riding fancy horses, thats all.

Personal hint: dont let anyone decide with army to build. Im glad you are making your own decision. I suggest you looking up our tactica section, and watch liz and he battle reports, maybe youll see some strategies, tricks you fell in love asap, choosing either side

Gl with your decision, may the old ones bless you with their wisdom!

 

[Andy140491]

Thanks for the great replies I think this is exactly what i needed to hear. If i choose an army based on it being 'stronger' when the incoming nerfs/buffs change the balance of an army i'll struggle so much more, and i wont become a decent general.

I much... MUCH prefer the lizardmen models without a shadow of a doubt. Love papa toad. LOVE saurus as troops aswell as skinks. and i love carnasaurs.

And thankyou for posting some pros! All i've heard is 'Lizardmen are bland' lizardmen are this and that. All negative stuff. but when it boils down to it... i really like the models and the idea behind them!

 

[Skinquisitor]

Dude, even letter opener can be a deadly weapon in the right hands.

And, about the lizards getting axed: as in the end times book, some of the lizzies gone to the space, while others went trough the void in bubble lands, while the entire world is being torn apart. As it seems currently, we are the only race wich ensured their survival. Some guy stated in discussion forums, no army will be axed according to a GW employee. If you want to make sure you dont choose an army wich gets axed, wait with the purchases till the release of 9th ed.

 

[Andy140491]

Yeah... my problem is im so easily swayed. My wood elf friend will just say "yeah well.. i'll just do this." and im so easily riled up i'll bite and moan and hate my army. I love the layout of the lizard book. And i love how the armies come out. Brightly coloured and they look gorgeous. i probably like a good 75 - 90% more Lizardmen models the High elves. I also like WoC too but they dont have toads on floating armchairs

I couldnt imagine them being axed :/ i think they may do what they did with 40k.. Role black templars into ther sm codex. Maybe beatmen (older book) may get rolled in with chaos. I do like skaven too. But i just dont think the army looks anyway near as impressive as Lizardmens.

What makes tetto'eko so good? and Why does everyone refer to this 'cowboy' term? Are lizardmen generals no good on foot?

 

[Skinquisitor]

Tetto: his d3 vanguard is great. Gives us the ability to push our hard-hitting forcer forward. He is loremaster of heavens, enables us to reroll power dices of ones almost always, and he is the master of comets. Comet of cassandora is my fav spell.

Generals on foot: for 30 points, you get +3 movement, swiftstride, fear, 2attack at s4 with predatory fighter, you cannot be stomped, and granted 5+ armor save to your scaly skin. The only drawback is stupidity.
You can have a saurus oldblood in 1+ armor save and 4+ ward with rerollable armor saves, 5 attacks at s6, but he is slow, this makes him hard to get him into combat, wich makes his talent wasted. Also, he can be stomped.

Cowboys: I dont know why they are called cowboys, and at this point, Im to affraid to ask

 

[Rettile]

probably i'm on the wrong road, but if i'm correct old cold ones models were called "cows" by the community. Maybe this and the fact that cowboys are usually represented on their horses made our heroes on cold ones... cowboys

 

[Skinquisitor]

You mean these type of cold ones:
?

Cuz they really seem like some well fed cows

 

[Carados]

Lizardmen have Dinosaurs and Lizards. Other armies don't. I like Dinosaurs and Lizards. Therefore, I get Lizardmen.



It helps if you are the sort of person who enjoys collecting, assembling and painting an army, as well as gaming with it.

 

[Rettile]

yeah haha

 

[Andy140491]

Hahaha who knows eh?

I just want to thank you for helping make this decision a little easier. I've ordered the book.. and I'll have a read through and see what I think

Can I ask though... If you had to describe the lizardmen playstyle in one word. What would it be?

 

[Skinquisitor]

I warn you: lizardmen is not easy to play. Not a starter friendly army. Youll have struggles while you get familiar with the basic rules, and with the army, untill you find your style, and what fits you most. But do not worry! If you have mastered all the skills you need, youll find our army very entertaining, versitile, and youll able to face any army, and succesfully fight them. Dont let the difficultis, the defeats make you unhappy with the lizards. Read a lot, lustria-online is a very friendly and helpful communitiy, offering great tutorials, tacticas, reports, army lists. Whenever you have a question, never think its too dumb, feel free to ask, dont be shy. There will be always someone to help you with.

Steel your heart, sharpen your fangs and claws, the jungle awaits you!

 

[Andy140491]

Thanks man. Seriously out of lizards and high elves I'm preferring the look of lizards. It just upsets me thinking they aren't quite as good. Tiers are always changing right though!

 

[bhuddiver]

I'm pretty new to fantasy and lizardmen (I've only played one game!) but I played a lot of 40k with people who sound similar to your friends. "Well if you field this then I'd just field that" or "why bother with that army, its the worst army there is" or whatever, and I'm ashamed to say I was one of them! But after tossing and turning which army to start in fantasy, I eventually went with one determining factor: what fluff/flavor/look do I like the best? If its the "best" army great, if its the worst then all the better when you wipe the smirks of yours friends face when you sub-par army wipes them out to a man. If you don't the army you choose, then the rules don't matter because you won't have fun. My first game was a very close game, and it was tough, but it was a lot of fun to watch my lizards kick butt. And like it was said before, the meta changes. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

 

[Andy140491]

Are there any units in the book that don't particularly work well? As I mentioned before... my friend plays wood elves. Are lizards a good match up?? I was thinking bastilidons with the beam, and stegs with the giant blow pipes. More shooting them back as they have such shitty defenses. Anyway to negate his moving and shooting. As he has little ways to deal with monsters (no war machines) I thought the best way would be to shoot his fast stuff and assault his shooting stuff. Something along that anyway

 

[Putzfrau]

I'm going to be completely 100% honest.

Dont start a lizardmen army. Saurus are not good. Carnosaurs are atrocious. Very few units in the book are actaully worth taking.

From a "tier" perspective, lizardmen aren't that much worse than high elves, but high elves have multiple competitive builds. Most of their book is useful in one way or the other. Lizardmen are the exact opposite. Their book is boring and they have one very specific static build and it hasn't changed in forever.

If you start a lizardmen army you have to do it because you love it from top to bottom.

This forum is literally filled with "why aren't saurus better" posts. Read sleboda's battle report thread. He's a good player that enjoys bringing fluffy lists and is consistently frustrated by how the lizardmen perform. And his last army was TOMB KINGS, if that tells you anything.

Everyone on this forum is going to say lizardmen are the shit. Cause they are. We all play them for a reason. But i see too many people go into lizardmen with the "oo saurus are awesome, dinosaurs are awesome!" mindset and are SUPREMELY disappointing when you're playing a 100% shooting, fleeing, skink based army.

Lizardmen are not a combat oriented army. They are not a magic buffing army. They are a conserve points, annoying with overpowered skinks, and outlast your opponent. Every battle is flee flee flee, rally shoot 80 shots, death snipe a lord okay i got my 18-2 victory, just have to make sure i can avoid combat for the rest of the game.

High elves are a dynamic army that is good in all phases of the game. I love lizardmen, they are by far my favorite army in either the fantasy or 40k universe, but they are a tough, frustrating army that is often extremely "bland" in playstyle and they have a ton of really cool models that are complete garbage on the table.


The units in the book that work well are skinks, terradons, slann, salamanders, saurus characters the end. No, i'm really not kidding. Other units are usable in certain scenarios (temple guard, the occasional stegadon) but the lizardmen book is one of the most limited, and internally unbalanced books out right now. Literally the only books that are worse are the ones that are complete garbage, like tomb kings.

A lizardmen army is going to play a lot like a wood elf army. They are fragile and rely on fast moving core to harass and avoid combat.

If i had to describe lizardmen combat in one word? Annoying. They rely on fleeing, avoiding combat, and shooting with poison. It's all very annoying tactics to deal with, especially when you are good at it.