8th Ed. Help Choosing An army?

[n810]

^ somebody needs a Snickers.

 

[Putzfrau]

^ somebody needs a Snickers.

Maybe, i'm just tired of seeing people get into lizardmen because "oo dinosaurs!" and then hate them when they realize its completely different.

Just think people should go into lizardmen with the right expectations. Fantastic models. Awesome fluff. Frustrating tactics and more frustrating internal balance.

I think only OnG rely so heavily on one very static build. And at least the OnG build has a little bit of everything (huge block, war machines, magic, choppy character) where as the lizardmen have 1 think.... shooting. Even saurus characters are often required merely to "tie things up" because they are supposed to be unkillable, not blenderlords.

Even with all that said i couldn't imagine playing another army. I love having my carnosaur model even if i never use it. I love my block of saurus even if they are garbage. Lizardmen can be extremely rewarding and offer GREAT converting options. They are awesome to paint and have as a hobby project, and even better on the table IF you like their tactics.

But i genuinely think thats the mindset you need to have, otherwise you'll be disappointed. And this hobby is too expensive to go into with false expectations.

I'd rather we have 1 more fantasy player a year from now then a lizardmen player for six months.

 

[n810]

I duno, I always found my Lizardmen worked best when I took a wide variety of units.
(yes even Saurus have their uses)

 

[Putzfrau]

I duno, I always found my Lizardmen worked best when I took a wide variety of units.
(yes even Saurus have their uses)

Yeah i guess it probably depends a lot one who/what armies you're playing against.

 

[n810]

Thou I will say that playing against woodelves was very frustrating,
since their shooting units are both faster, and have longer range.
and you can forget about catching an elf unit with saurus, although
they where a good match for the dryads. I'm thinking a big unit of
Kroxigor might be your best bet along with some Blastidons and decent magic.

 

[Andy140491]

The armies that im instantly drawn to are Skaven, lizardmen, and warriors of chaos. Maybe tomb kings. I'm not too bothered about how an army plays but I don't like the sound of 'running away and harassing' I kinda like a 'buff an army up' magic caster with the ability to have strong combat Lords if I wanted. So that's why I liked lizardmen. Love the slaan and I thought scar vets were decent. So in order it's

Lizardmen
Skaven
Warriors of chaos
Tomb kings.
Maybe dwarves.

 

[Putzfrau]

The armies that im instantly drawn to are Skaven, lizardmen, and warriors of chaos. Maybe tomb kings. I'm not too bothered about how an army plays but I don't like the sound of 'running away and harassing' I kinda like a 'buff an army up' magic caster with the ability to have strong combat Lords if I wanted. So that's why I liked lizardmen. Love the slaan and I thought scar vets were decent. So in order it's

Lizardmen
Skaven
Warriors of chaos
Tomb kings.
Maybe dwarves.

I'll give you the basic layout of how most decentish lizardmen armies are played and constructed.

First you start with an entire core of skinks. If its not all skinks its all skinks with 1 25ish sized saurus block. This path immediately makes the army significantly less effective as lizardmen require skinks to do 80% of the heavy lifting in the army.

Then you pick slann. He'll either be "high elf loremaster" (1 of each sig) or High Magic loremaster. Both of these choices have okayish buffs, but you'll primarily be casting the metal and death signatures to snipe out characters and difficult to kill 1+ armor save units.

3 scar vet "cowboys" (scar vets on cold ones). They will have 1+ armor saves and a reroll or a ward (or both!). They will have great weapons. They will kill some, but mostly be unkillable. They hold up problematic units and allow your skinks to do their fleeing shooting thing.

From there its a little open-ended. Some people go with a big TG block. Some people roll multiple terradon squads. Some people throw a steg/blastadon or two in there.

All in all the army's function doesnt change too much unless you're running something drastically different. You flee. You shoot. Your scar vets stick around and laugh. You blast things with magic. You do not buff. You do not stick around for combat. You do not get into combats expecting to win. You are not WoC. You are 7th edition dark elves. Without the hydra.

Now, even with all that said obviously no one is forcing you to play this way. However, it is literally THE ONLY way lizardmen are even somewhat competitive. Any other list you bring drops in effectiveness FAST. Saurus are not good. period. They just aren't. You can get away with running 1 but in a perfect world you wouldn't run any.

The armies you listed are all extremely different. If one isn't standing head and shoulders above the rest i'd do a little research into how they play.

Like I mentioned before, High Elves are actually one of the more fun armies to play right now. They compete in all phases of the game and actually have a fairly well internally balanced book.

And finally, you shouldn't let anyone dissuade or persuade your decision. Just inform yourself with a bit of research and you can't make a wrong choice

 

[Andy140491]

I do like the idea of strong resolute dwarves. But I can imagine playing them being really boring with them not having alot of movement... other then that I'd enjoy them. I love the look of the irondrakes too. What are they like??

 

[n810]

Putzfrau are you playing in some sort of comped environment ?

 

[Kblock]

I started playing WHFB about 2 years ago and decided to play Lizardmen about a year ago. I chose Lizardmen because I like the fluff and the models. I enjoy collecting and painting as much as playing. I do manage to get at least 1 game a month and have played against several different armies. I build my armies to the fluff most of the time. I lose some and win some and do using buffing spells to make my Saurus and Temple Guard tougher.

Army builds for tournaments and casual play can be much different. Most Lizardmen armies that do well in tournaments are as Putzfrau described. Lots of fleeing and redirecting. I play in casual games and not tournaments. My friends and I like playing fluff type army builds in our casual games so for me playing Lizardmen to the fluff is fun. Think about your gaming meta and about the look of the armies and tactics you want to play. Then decide on your army and have fun!

 

[Andy140491]

We literally just play round each others houses. We don't play in tournaments but.. my friend likes to play net lists. He used lots of wild riders, woods, Waywatchers and stalkers. A bow that shoots 3d6 shots out... so I don't know if I could class him as competitive or not :/. But no we never play as a tournament. He's just super aggressive in his playstyle. I remember a while ago playing dark elves. He basically shot me before I could get anywhere near him. Was bloody awful. I love lizardmen models. But I'd hate to play using this fleeing stuff. I prefer the more 'hold you ground' type play.

 

[Madrck]

It's like the wild west. Cowboys get it done!!!

I loathe elves as a rule(army wide asf what a joke) but as books go the current 8th edition book for HE is a masterpiece. That being said with ET around elves are pushed into a generic army with no flavour (all elves combined)

Under current rules it's hard to win a game without saurus characters. That being said slanns are still something else when it comes to casting. It's just that elves can do it from horseback. Pick you army based more on what looks good on the table and you will enjoy painting and when it comes to it converting.

Ask yourself, "Do I want to paint a stegadon with a howdah crew?" or "A flimsy one dimensional bird?"

 

[Gary_M]

While agree with some of what Putzfrau has said, I also disagree with some.

Saurus on their own are not competitive, BUT when buffed with Wyssans, we get Str 5 and T 5 models. Ok WS is still low, but when they hit (remember 2 attacks per model plus pred fighter on 6s) they will hurt enemies. Also, WS can be boosted with certain spells as can certain rolls (one from Heavens allows rerolls of 1s)

I love saurus, and will always use at least one block (currently my club tend to play 2500 point armies so the core tax of 625 works out to be 3 x 10 skink skrimishers and one block of 35 saurus with full command). While I don't get to play many games in a month (4 max) this block when buffed has out performed my expectations.

I also disagree with the flee tactics, yes that is part of our play but its more about redirecting in my opinion. Having watched an inordinate amount of Lizardmen batreps on Youtube, simply fleeing is not our only tactic.

With regard to choice of army, go with what you like, that way win or lose you'll still love 'em! I played a lot of 15mm Ancients before getting back into WFB a couple of years ago. My favourite army wasn't Romans or Greek/Macedonian, but Late Dark Age/Early Medieval Scots (in my heart my early ancestors were in there somewhere!). They were truely rubbish but were such a shock to many people ("You've taken what? Oh this is an easy win...") that I won as many as I lost. Losing, not that bothered as they were pretty poor anyway but I still liked them. Win, oh the joy. Beating decent armies with a bunch of poorly clothed/armed peasants was wonderful.

OK, our troops aren't in the same ilk, but they do have their weaknesses, but there are ways around them. - Buffing our own, hexing the enemy.

Given we have such great magical toolkits available to us (Wandering Deliberations and Lore Master High Magic) together with Skink Priests to help with the buffs/hexing (from Lore of Beasts/Heavens), I think we are ok as an army.

Yes there are other armies that do different things better than us, but I wouldn't change from Lizards to any other army.

I'd have to assume Putzfrau has played more games than me and therefore more experience against different armies (I continue to count myself as something of a noob WFB player), and I commend his honesty in assessing our troops. All I'm saying is it's not all doom and gloom IMHO.

 

[Putzfrau]

All I'm saying is it's not all doom and gloom IMHO.

And I apologize if I gave off that impression

I totally agree when you say you should love an army inside and out. Losing should be just as fun as winning.

Don't let my negativity dissuade you (OP). If you wanna play monster mash with saurus then by all means go for it. It's your hobby, your army, and you should play any damn ed way you like.

I just usually find that understanding an army in its most competitive form helps me judge it in general. I like how lizardmen play frim top to bottom. I think having the right expectations goes a long way.

I just always go back to Slebodas battle report thread. By the end of it he was frustrated and has all but given up on the lizards. I think part of that dissapointment can from a drastic difference between his expectations and realities.

Hope you enjoy the hobby regardless of your army selection

 

[Andy140491]

Thank you for all the helpful responses (especially the last couple!)

I've narrowed it down to dwarves and lizardmen. I think I need to appreciate high elves as an army.. but they just aren't for me.

I love lizardmen as a whole. Love the dinosaurs and the aztec feel. I love the slaan mage priests and their strong casters

But then I love dwarves for the opposite reason. I love them for the sturdiness, the grudges and beards! For the war machines and hammerers.

Can anyone here give a little insight to dwarves? Playing against them??

 

[Skinquisitor]

Tetto' eko wants to fight dwarves!
Dwarves are passive... even with their new flying toys they are the most immobile army... If you want to spend your game sitting in a corner, surrounded by stinky little guys who are so bored of their playstyle and becouse of this they became alcoholic, go for it, but dwarves become boring pretty fast, in my opinion. Or at least for me.
They are hard to kill in cc, but with dwarves, you make a massacre,or be massacred, no middle ground. Their characteres are tough, but not killy. They have low I, once something reaches their line, they die pretty fast, with some exeption.
As a lizardmen player, I never found hard to defeat them, one their warmachines are shut, you just go there, and let the poison cloud do the rest. 1-2 sallies, and they are done. Their ultimate doom is Comet of Cassandora, thats why Tetto is eager to fight them One good comet, and the entire army is gone. They dont have the versatility, not flexible, and if you play with some kind of missions, they are almost always unable to do it. Taking about any mission, where you have to walk

 

[Andy140491]

That's what I was worried about.

Looking at them I really liked the hammerers and their tough Lords. And I was looking for a more 'in your face' gyrocopters, vanguarding quarrelers and hammerers. More that type of playstyle. I do love war machines too. But then I don't really know enough about lizardmen to think tactfully. You tend to get the same response when I talk about lizards. 'Don't use saurus, don't use this, don't use that'

I also like the runes you get with dwarves too. But I agree they could get Boeing really quickly :/

 

[Skinquisitor]

If you go for that vanguarding style, youll meet the same struggle the saurus do, with the exeption you dont have anything to buff them. Youll struggle to get into combat. You have to lure your opponent to you, best way the warmachines. Back, in the old days, you could field such dwarven army, when you placed a character, and thats all. Rest were ambusher, scout^^

 

[Andy140491]

No but don't quarrelers have the option for crossbows and great weapons??? I really don't know yet. It's still difficult as I don't have the saurus book yet nor the dwarves. But concept wise they're both equal. But model wise I prefer lizards. I do like the tough dwarf Lords and the melee units. And I suppose the options and war machines. But like you said... I can imagine them being boring :/

 

[n810]

hehe I remember when core skinks could scout... good times.