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[J.Logan]

The issue is that I'm sick of Space Marines. I understand why GW focuses so much attention on them, but it is boring and exhausting. 40k is absolutely saturated with different variants of Space Marines (let alone the Horus Heresy game). Fantasy was a last refuge from the Space Marine curse until AoS introduced the Sigmarines and then we had to endure release after release of those guys.

Aside from that, there is nothing inherently wrong with them. They're not the models that I would personally collect, but they are not objectively ugly like the OBR.

More or less my thoughts about them as a whole. Even with the gradual shift away from the bulky armour they started with, I still call them Sigmarines, because let's face it, at this point, unless they have a far bigger redesign than just slimming their armour, they're still fantasy space marines. And we used to have those in concept already, they were called Lady Botherers... sorry, Bretonnians .

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

More or less my thoughts about them as a whole. Even with the gradual shift away from the bulky armour they started with, I still call them Sigmarines, because let's face it, at this point, unless they have a far bigger redesign than just slimming their armour, they're still fantasy space marines. And we used to have those already in concept already, they were called Lady Botherers... sorry, Bretonnians .

I think they would have been much better received if the 40k Space Marines had never existed.

 

[Canas]

It's no surprise really. AoS at launch ported over most of the characters from WHFB. How many AoS-original characters existed when the game first dropped? Of course they had to poach a bunch of pre-existing characters, otherwise the setting would be completely devoid of any substance (or attachment). It was a rushed release with incomplete rules and an incomplete (original) setting. Couple this with the fact that Nagash and Archaon had some brand new shiny expensive miniatures, and of course they were going to be included.

Sure, but why port them over as gods?
Durthu got demoted to being sort of an avatar thing. So why did the Nagash model continue to represent a literal god on the battlefield? Why not just say it's an avatar instead so you can keep it on a vaguely sensible level of power?

Similarly, characters like Mannfred managed to carry over as lesser luitenants, still a bit on the powerfull side, but at least a couple steps lower than a god. So why not just focus on those?

The issue is that I'm sick of Space Marines. I understand why GW focuses so much attention on them, but it is boring and exhausting. 40k is absolutely saturated with different variants of Space Marines (let alone the Horus Heresy game). Fantasy was a last refuge from the Space Marine curse until AoS introduced the Sigmarines and then we had to endure release after release of those guys.

Aside from that, there is nothing inherently wrong with them. They're not the models that I would personally collect, but they are not objectively ugly like the OBR.

Honestly, the only real issue is just how many releases they get. They look fine, especially once they became a bit more distinct from the marines with the introduction of a new chamber (and now multiple new chambers...).

But the sheer rate at which they get new releases is exhausting.

 

[ChapterAquila92]

The issue is that I'm sick of Space Marines. I understand why GW focuses so much attention on them, but it is boring and exhausting. 40k is absolutely saturated with different variants of Space Marines (let alone the Horus Heresy game). Fantasy was a last refuge from the Space Marine curse until AoS introduced the Sigmarines and then we had to endure release after release of those guys.

It's an issue of optics more than anything. For all that GW dotes on Space Marines as their posterboy mascots and (relatively) beginner-friendly model range, their ultimate sin is being boring on the tabletop in vanilla 40k, especially when stacked against other factions that look and play differently.*

*In theory, anyway, given how a lot of current edition 40k feels generic and samey as fuck.

If anything, it's rather ironic that Horus Heresy, as a de facto marine-centric game where 20 factions (the 18 Legions, Blackshields, and Shattered Legions) pull models from the exact same model range, does a far better job of differentiating between said factions on the tabletop by comparison, despite the models "looking the same". (Incidentally, this also applies to Adeptus Titanicus)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Sure, but why port them over as gods?
Durthu got demoted to being sort of an avatar thing. So why did the Nagash model continue to represent a literal god on the battlefield? Why not just say it's an avatar instead so you can keep it on a vaguely sensible level of power?

Similarly, characters like Mannfred managed to carry over as lesser luitenants, still a bit on the powerfull side, but at least a couple steps lower than a god. So why not just focus on those?

That's a fair enough approach, GW easily could have followed the route that you suggest. I could see an avatar of Nagash working, though maybe not for Archaon.

It might be as result of AoS being "high" fantasy as compared to the relatively more grounded setting of Warhammer Fantasy. Things in AoS seemingly need to be larger, grander and more fantastical. Look how long it took GW to release a "normal" horse as a miniature mount; instead all the mounts were mystical creatures. WHFB was a classical medieval setting with healthy twist of fantasy elements. AoS does not have that same grounding. Anything goes, from flying Dwarfs with lighter-than-air metals to sea Elves and their sea creatures fighting in a setting that takes place on land. In such a setting, a god is much less out of place.

Honestly, the only real issue is just how many releases they get. They look fine, especially once they became a bit more distinct from the marines with the introduction of a new chamber (and now multiple new chambers...).

But the sheer rate at which they get new releases is exhausting.

That's part of it... coupled with the fact that such a large percentage of 40k armies are space marine armies. With those two factors combined, it's simply too much for my liking. I had enough of it in 40k, I didn't want to see more of the same in fantasy.

It's an issue of optics more than anything. For all that GW dotes on Space Marines as their posterboy mascots and (relatively) beginner-friendly model range, their ultimate sin is being boring on the tabletop in vanilla 40k, especially when stacked against other factions that look and play differently.*

*In theory, anyway, given how a lot of current edition 40k feels generic and samey as fuck.

I think 40k would benefit from a greater Xenos focus and less Space Marine stuff. How many armies do the Space Marines really need?

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

https://www.warhammer-community.com...-bowl-miniatures-designers-talk-chaos-dwarfs/

 

[J.Logan]

How many armies do the Space Marines really need?

Considerably less than there currently are. Though I get it, gotta let the players create their own armies and all... and gotta let the authors have the power to create their own chapters so that when they get merc'ed, nobody can cry foul that their favourite chapter got done dirty.

Though if we're talking the unit choices: at least before the Primaris marines the choices were basically Tactical, Assault or Devestator, with scouts as the "in-training" option (chapter depending) and then Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminators to represent the elite marines. Anything else was just cosmetics...

Shut up, I'm not forgetting chapter specific nonsense... they're just fancy variations for those specific chapters. Bite me.

Now we have... far... FAR more than just Primarus rebranding of those seven choices. *sigh* And to my knowledge, the classic marines are still rules'd-up and tourny-legal, so that's yet more choices for the marine players.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Considerably less than there currently are. Though I get it, gotta let the players create their own armies and all... and gotta let the authors have the power to create their own chapters so that when they get merc'ed, nobody can cry foul that their favourite chapter got done dirty.

Though if we're talking the unit choices: at least before the Primaris marines the choices were basically Tactical, Assault or Devestator, with scouts as the "in-training" option (chapter depending) and then Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminators to represent the elite marines. Anything else was just cosmetics...

Shut up, I'm not forgetting chapter specific nonsense... they're just fancy variations for those specific chapters. Bite me.

Now we have... far... FAR more than just Primarus rebranding of those seven choices. *sigh* And to my knowledge, the classic marines are still rules'd-up and tourny-legal, so that's yet more choices for the marine players.

All this means that the more interesting factions like the Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, etc. get that much less attention. They have to wade through an ocean of various Space Marine releases before they ever get anything new themselves.

 

[J.Logan]

All this means that the more interesting factions like the Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, etc. get that much less attention. They have to wade through an ocean of various Space Marine releases before they ever get anything new themselves.

You're looking at it the wrong way... More space marines = more targets for the Tau to shoot in the face with their railguns.

Yeah, would definitely like more focus on the xenos. Particularly the Tau (you'll never be able to tell what faction I played in 40k, I'm so subtle )

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You're looking at it the wrong way... More space marines = more targets for the Tau to shoot in the face with their railguns.

Yeah, would definitely like more focus on the xenos. Particularly the Tau (you'll never be able to tell what faction I played in 40k, I'm so subtle )

Ultimately it doesn't really matter for me as I no longer play (or collect 40k) and I never got into AoS. I only play WHFB, which is (and will always be) proudly Space/Sig Marine free!

 

[ChapterAquila92]

I think 40k would benefit from a greater Xenos focus and less Space Marine stuff. How many armies do the Space Marines really need?

I wouldn't say it's a question of how many armies so much as how many distinct units. Much of the bloat in recent years has been less "more toys for Astartes players to use" and more "this is a shallow duplicate of a pre-existing unit done up so lazily that not only could it have been an upgrade kit instead but could also have been folded into a single datasheet with other similar units."

Beyond that though, even Space Marine players will agree that Xenos absolutely need some love in terms of both rules and models.

Though if we're talking the unit choices: at least before the Primaris marines the choices were basically Tactical, Assault or Devastator, with scouts as the "in-training" option (chapter depending) and then Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminators to represent the elite marines. Anything else was just cosmetics...

Now we have... far... FAR more than just Primaris rebranding of those seven choices. *sigh* And to my knowledge, the classic marines are still rules'd-up and tourny-legal, so that's yet more choices for the marine players.

I will reiterate that nearly all of the Primaris rebranding basically amounts to GW being lazy, not just in rules writing but also in miniature design. For instance, virtually every marine in Tacticus armour that isn't wielding a pistol or melee weapon of some kind is a one-for-one weapon swap with the Intercessor kit with the exact same poses, to the point where Desolation squads - the missile launcher Devastator Squad replacements whose goofy weapons wouldn't be out of place in a nerf battle - are modeled holding their super missile launchers in ways that would only make sense if they were using bolt rifles instead. This isn't always a bad thing if the more recent Horus Heresy weapon upgrade kits are anything to go by (granted, this is only referring to the special weapon kits - the heavy weapon kits come with their own arms), but at least there a heavy weapon doesn't - and shouldn't - come across as though it's a foam cosplay prop.

And even setting that aside, as well as the issue of each squad needing its own separate weapon loadout, the Desolation Squad only accounts for one weapon option that a Devastator Squad can take out of, what... 5? 6?
Suffice to say that I don't think the Devastator Squad is going anywhere until they rectify that.

 

[Canas]

I wouldn't say it's a question of how many armies so much as how many distinct units. Much of the bloat in recent years has been less "more toys for Astartes players to use" and more "this is a shallow duplicate of a pre-existing unit done up so lazily that not only could it have been an upgrade kit instead but could also have been folded into a single datasheet with other similar units."

By the way, why doesn't GW do official variations of the same unit?
Instead of releasing a billion shallow duplicates with slightly different rules; why not just pretend they're all "heavy weapon teams" or whatever, and share rules. It'd allow them to push out new models for collectors & such at a high rate, but would remove the need to constantly make minor distinctions.

In such a setting, a god is much less out of place.

I mean, they realized that Titans shouldn't be fielded in regular games in 40K, and managed to still involve those plenty in the lore.
The gods in AoS should really be treated similar to Titans in 40K. Big powerfull things, which are very active on the battlefields accross the setting. But limited to background stories and with very limited impact on the actual game.

 

[J.Logan]

By the way, why doesn't GW do official variations of the same unit?

Because common sense isn't common any more.

I mean, they realized that Titans shouldn't be fielded in regular games in 40K, and managed to still involve those plenty in the lore.

That's hardly stopped them from selling titans for over 1.5 grand. Chotek preserve me... at that price and at that size, I might as well just dress up as the damn thing and stand on the table, it'd be cheaper, both monetarily and for my pride.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I mean, they realized that Titans shouldn't be fielded in regular games in 40K, and managed to still involve those plenty in the lore.
The gods in AoS should really be treated similar to Titans in 40K. Big powerfull things, which are very active on the battlefields accross the setting. But limited to background stories and with very limited impact on the actual game.

Then maybe there is hope for you that GW does the same in AoS. They must have had their reasons for including gods, but if the drawbacks outweigh those reasons, they may initiate a change that would improve the game from your point of view.

 

[Canas]

That's hardly stopped them from selling titans for over 1.5 grand. Chotek preserve me... at that price and at that size, I might as well just dress up as the damn thing and stand on the table, it'd be cheaper, both monetarily and for my pride.

Sure, but they're pretty explicit that they're not supposed to be "normal" units.

Also, a 50cm tall Kroak, Archaon, or Kairos towering over the regular models seems pretty goal for a diaorama.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[- Q -]

That's a neat looking Chaos sorcerer dude.

 

[WildColonial Boy]

That's a neat looking Chaos sorcerer dude.

He's got green skin under that mask. It's an orc in disguise....

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

He's got green skin under that mask. It's an orc in disguise....

He has glowing green eyes. The rest is OSL.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]