AoS Fixing Serephon

[Erta Wanderer]

Sunfires are literally only useable for one thing. Which makes it super obvious as to which units should counter it and which should run away from it. It also means that unless you can do that 1 thing, the entire weapon is just useless. Hence give it something like a fixed minimum amount of attacks to at least make the counter a fraction less obvious.

Also, the rend is far too easy to knock down to rely on that to deal with any and all small units. If he'd stay at maximum health the entire game & there was some way to avoid rolling badly when generating the stomps attack it wouldn't be needed. But this is not the case and can mean a stegadon with flamethrowers can be surprisingly harmless at times.

almost all weapons only do 1 thing it's the ones that have more then one option that are the vast minority it is nither rare or a unit breaker to have a firm counter and in this case it isn't even that firm. you still get 10 attacks against 10 man units it's only really heavy units and heroes that don't get mauled by this thing and medium to large units get compleatly melted by this thing.

Why would it need a damage table? Has GW explicitly stated they will always do that if you have more than X wounds? And if so, why? cuz that should not be a rule set in stone.

with two exceptions every unit in the game with more then 8 health charts and the two that don't are a 20 year old model that hasn't been updated with sigmar rules and a discontinued tomb kings unit. it is not a stated rule but it the way things are none the less

It's fun, but out of place. Everything else is support & buff focussed. Having a random attack in there screws with how you'd use the unit & introduces complications when balancing as now it needs to balance utility against a nuke, which is difficult as they're two very different things.

as apposed to all the times above that you wanted me to do both with a hero. also we have firm ways of choosing what you get with this roll(hence not random) and this is just another tool in the wheel house it's saved me more then a few times by throwing mortals 2 feet away. with three of these guys you have a warp lightning battery that does somthing if you fail

Meh, I'd consider making it "buff X nearby units" or something. Just generally not a great fan of the aura's that require a unit to be wholly within it.

wholly within is the way things are working now and i thought it was appropriate seeing the parallel has it to even then you can fit a lot in that much space

 

[Canas]

I

almost all weapons only do 1 thing it's the ones that have more then one option that are the vast minority it is nither rare or a unit breaker to have a firm counter and in this case it isn't even that firm. you still get 10 attacks against 10 man units it's only really heavy units and heroes that don't get mauled by this thing and medium to large units get compleatly melted by this thing.

I said it becomes pointless against less then 10. Hence why one of my suggestions was to put the minimum at 10.

Anyway, most weapons don't go from completly harmless to devestating depending on what they target.

Alternativly, we could simply just make them two different units with different point costs (and possibly stats) so you don't have to balance two vastly different loadouts with vastly different strengths and weaknesses and completly different purposes to be equally valuable somehow.

Imho the simplification of pointcosts by having different loadouts not cost points were somewhat of a mistake. There's several examples of stuff being more expensive than they should cuz of the current approach where a unit gets 1 cost regardless of loadout. Not to mention, several abilities, like our banners, increasing costs cuz they are potentially usefull, but not seeing much use because they're super easy to counter (or the meta just basicly ignores em).

with two exceptions every unit in the game with more then 8 health charts and the two that don't are a 20 year old model that hasn't been updated with sigmar rules and a discontinued tomb kings unit. it is not a stated rule but it the way things are none the less

Doesn't mean we have to follow suit. Hell, it even fits perfectly with the bastiladon. Not degrading like similar monsters fits right in with being super hard to hurt.

as apposed to all the times above that you wanted me to do both with a hero. also we have firm ways of choosing what you get with this roll(hence not random) and this is just another tool in the wheel house it's saved me more then a few times by throwing mortals 2 feet away. with three of these guys you have a warp lightning battery that does somthing if you fail

That's a different subject. In those cases I wanted a support unit to be able to defend themselves which requires the unit to be able to do damage with something. Here I'm saying you shouldn't throw damage into the support ability itself. There's a very clear distinction. Giving the EoTG a ranged mortal wound nuke somewhere else would in itself be fine (or at least a thing we can look at if it's possible to balance and makes sense).

wholly within is the way things are working now and i thought it was appropriate seeing the parallel has it to even then you can fit a lot in that much space

I know, just not a fan of that. It's introduced to deal with congalines, but personally I find those less annoying than huge blobs that stick together provided you don't get an entire board of congalines. I'd rather see larger units nerfed so a congaline just isn't effective.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Anyway, most weapons don't go from completely harmless to devastating depending on what they target.

except for moon hammers devistatores and prity much any anti horde weapon only this one isn't as shit as those as it has 4 times the range

Alternativly, we could simply just make them two different units with different point costs (and possibly stats) so you don't have to balance two vastly different loadouts with vastly different strengths and weaknesses and completly different purposes to be equally valuable somehow.

ill consider this

 

[Canas]

except for moon hammers devistatores and prity much any anti horde weapon only this one isn't as shit as those as it has 4 times the range

Moon hammers & decimators (devastators are some variant of space marine), have less of a difference between their minimum and maximum though. They don't vary from 40 to 1, they vary more from like 5 to 1 per hammer.

And in case this needs explaining, not overly fond of those either for this exact same reason.

 

[LizardWizard]

with two exceptions every unit in the game with more then 8 health charts and the two that don't are a 20 year old model that hasn't been updated with sigmar rules and a discontinued tomb kings unit. it is not a stated rule but it the way things are none the less

Well, there are the Idoneth's Eidolons. They don't even have the monster of Behemoth Keywords. However, their whole army is OP

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Well, there are the Idoneth's Eidolons. They don't even have the monster of Behemoth Keywords. However, their whole army is OP

still you can see my hesitation to break this trend bastiladons are already seen as op by those who don't know any better.

 

[LizardWizard]

still you can see my hesitation to break this trend bastiladons are already seen as op by those who don't know any better.

That is fair. Bastiladons are viewed as broken outside of the tournament scene.

 

[Canas]

That is fair. Bastiladons are viewed as broken outside of the tournament scene.

Really? It's not like they're that powerfull. The only situation in which they'd get properly frustrating would be if you have a high rend army but little to no mortal wounds and a relativly low volume of attacks. Unless you play particularly fluffy armies and are purposely avoiding things that can kill him even a fairly mediocre army should have the tools to deal with him. And it's not like we field loads of em at the same time either. And even then the only thing he's above average at is defense, his offense pales in comparison to other behemoths. Seems like a peculiar one to view as broken.

Hell just looking at our own army I'd list shadowstrike & our summoning as vastly more frustrating against weaker non-competitive lists. Or an eternal starhost in the right circumstances.

 

[LizardWizard]

Really? It's not like they're that powerfull. The only situation in which they'd get properly frustrating would be if you have a high rend army but little to no mortal wounds and a relativly low volume of attacks. Unless you play particularly fluffy armies and are purposely avoiding things that can kill him even a fairly mediocre army should have the tools to deal with him. And it's not like we field loads of em at the same time either. And even then the only thing he's above average at is defense, his offense pales in comparison to other behemoths. Seems like a peculiar one to view as broken.

Hell just looking at our own army I'd list shadowstrike & our summoning as vastly more frustrating against weaker non-competitive lists. Or an eternal starhost in the right circumstances.

They only have 8 wounds, but they can deal a decent amount of damage. They also have a 3+ save ignoring rend and a 4+ save vs mortal wounds. With either the Skink Priest's prayer or the Thunderquake rerolls they are pretty impossible to kill except for the top tier armies who can crush them under the weight of their attacks.

 

[ILKAIN]

for 40k the magic number is ten wounds. at 10 wounds you get a wound chart. Old One Eye PURPOSELY went from 10 wounds to 9 from the index to the codex for 8th because they didn't want him to have a wound chart AND they wanted him to benefit from the character protection rules (10 wounds or more are targetable even if a closer unit is there)

 

[Canas]

They only have 8 wounds, but they can deal a decent amount of damage. They also have a 3+ save ignoring rend and a 4+ save vs mortal wounds. With either the Skink Priest's prayer or the Thunderquake rerolls they are pretty impossible to kill except for the top tier armies who can crush them under the weight of their attacks.

What army genuinly struggles to kill them though?
SCE have mortal wounds on like half their heroes and quite a lot of units.
Skaven have mortal wounds everywhere
DoK have an excessive amount of attacks
Sylvaneth have plenty of mortal wounds with their wizards and kurnoth's, and a treelord is at least as difficult to kill with his healing
Tzeentch has mortal wounds
Nurgle has plenty of mortal wounds and easily rivals his survivability.
Slaanesh has excessive amount of attacks & mortal wounds.
Khorne has it a bit more difficult, but plenty of mortal wound nonsense as well.
Undeath has loads of mortal wounds and stuff like ghoul kings just murder a bastiladon.
Grots have a decent amount of mortal wounds (including some quite silly options like a stampeding squiq herd trampling the bastiladon)
Beastclaw again, mortal wounds on nearly everything. And their stonehorns aren't exactly easy to kill either.

The only ones that seem to really struggle to kill it are Ironjawz, Kharadron, the various unsupported factions & ironicly our own faction. I mean yeah, it takes a decent chunk of effort to get 16 mortal wounds in. But it isn't exactly an impossible task for most of these.and it's not like a bastiladon is super cheap. And it's not like you really need to tailor your list for it either.

 

[LizardWizard]

What army genuinly struggles to kill them though?
SCE have mortal wounds on like half their heroes and quite a lot of units.
Skaven have mortal wounds everywhere
DoK have an excessive amount of attacks
Sylvaneth have plenty of mortal wounds with their wizards and kurnoth's, and a treelord is at least as difficult to kill with his healing
Tzeentch has mortal wounds
Nurgle has plenty of mortal wounds and easily rivals his survivability.
Slaanesh has excessive amount of attacks & mortal wounds.
Khorne has it a bit more difficult, but plenty of mortal wound nonsense as well.
Undeath has loads of mortal wounds and stuff like ghoul kings just murder a bastiladon.
Grots have a decent amount of mortal wounds (including some quite silly options like a stampeding squiq herd trampling the bastiladon)
Beastclaw again, mortal wounds on nearly everything. And their stonehorns aren't exactly easy to kill either.

The only ones that seem to really struggle to kill it are Ironjawz, Kharadron, the various unsupported factions & ironicly our own faction. I mean yeah, it takes a decent chunk of effort to get 16 mortal wounds in. But it isn't exactly an impossible task for most of these.and it's not like a bastiladon is super cheap. And it's not like you really need to tailor your list for it either.

Most non optimized armies struggle to kill it. Skaven, Dok, and Idoneth are the best high tier armies for nuking them. An argument can also be made for Slaanesh being able to reach them in a single turn. However, the other armies will have a hard time removing them in a single turn. Which, because of LoSaT if you don't kill it the turn you reach it then you won't kill it.

All that being said, I think they are over costed. 250 or 240 would be more appropriate due to the power creep since the first GHB. This is party due to Razodons being strictly better than them. If the Bastiladon were to get a respectable combat profile then it would be worth the 280.

Either way, there still persist the notion within casual groups that Bastiladons are broken. When I visit a new play group I normally bring Thunderquake instead of Shadowstrike until I know how hardcore the play environment is. The thing I hear most often is how broken the Bastiladon is during set up. The same can be said for the Thundertusk. It is by no means overpowered, but there is a large part of the community that believes it is OP.

 

[Canas]

I mean I guess, but that's not so much "bastiladon's are OP" as much as it's referencing how being able to teleport artillery to safety is just really strong.
Plus, that still leaves every faction with some form of ranged mortal wound mechanic reasonably capable of opposing it. Out of the ones I listed only Khorne & the grots seem like they'd struggle to do that at range. The rest either have ranged mortal wounds, or are fast enough to keep up and or kill it in one go.

Ah well. People can be weird I guess. Might also just be a local meta thing. If noone likes using wizards getting ranged mortal wounds becomes difficult.

 

[LizardWizard]

I mean I guess, but that's not so much "bastiladon's are OP" as much as it's referencing how being able to teleport artillery to safety is just really strong.
Plus, that still leaves every faction with some form of ranged mortal wound mechanic reasonably capable of opposing it. Out of the ones I listed only Khorne & the grots seem like they'd struggle to do that at range. The rest either have ranged mortal wounds, or are fast enough to keep up and or kill it in one go.

Ah well. People can be weird I guess. Might also just be a local meta thing. If noone likes using wizards getting ranged mortal wounds becomes difficult.

The issue is that almost no armies can reasonably do 16 mortal wounds at range unless their army is optimized to do so. I do not think the Bastiladon is OP. I am just aware of a lot of people who do think it is.

 

[ChapterAquila92]

The only thing I can think of is to let "missed" snakes do something. But yeah, I suspect a more extensive rewrite of that particular mechanic is needed.

Like incurring a -1 penalty to hit friendly units within range in that combat phase? Just because the snakes don't kill doesn't mean that they're not a potential distraction.

 

[LizardWizard]

Like incurring a -1 penalty to hit friendly units within range in that combat phase? Just because the snakes don't kill doesn't mean that they're not a potential distraction.

It would also be neat if the Ark of Sotek buffed other nearby units. Maybe make the Jaws and Shields attack of seraphon have -1 rend on their attacks if wholly within 12" of the Ark of Sotek.

 

[ChapterAquila92]

It would also be neat if the Ark of Sotek buffed other nearby units. Maybe make the Jaws and Shields attack of seraphon have -1 rend on their attacks if wholly within 12" of the Ark of Sotek.

In truth, you could set up a range of buffs and debuffs that stack based on how many snakes missed. I would at least advise that said bonuses apply for that combat round only though.

The bonuses that come to mind, apart from the ones we've brought up, include re-rolls on bite attacks and mortal wounds on 6s (to hit or wound, not sure which) with said attacks.

 

[Canas]

The issue is that almost no armies can reasonably do 16 mortal wounds at range unless their army is optimized to do so. I do not think the Bastiladon is OP. I am just aware of a lot of people who do think it is.

Not in one turn. but chipping away at it shouldn't be too difficult. Ah well, things like this always make me curious what causes these differences in view. Especially some of the weirder justifications as to why something is (not) broken in certain games always make me wonder how people can genuinly believe those. Sometimes feels like those people are playing a completly different game.

In truth, you could set up a range of buffs and debuffs that stack based on how many snakes missed. I would at least advise that said bonuses apply for that combat round only though.

The bonuses that come to mind, apart from the ones we've brought up, include re-rolls on bite attacks and mortal wounds on 6s (to hit or wound, not sure which) with said attacks.

An idea I like would be to allow the snakes to becomes (semi)permanent mines. It'd make it the bastiladon super interesting as a zone of control unit. Especially if they last long. Teleport him on an objective or into a chokepoint, and just start planting down snakes. Even if he gets killed the objective is still surrounded by snakes.

Buffs/debuffs also work. However, I'd say they'd need to last untill he releases more snakes in the next combat phase. That'd allow you to put in some interesting utility mechanics as well, like a variant of the Shards of Valaghar. Seems funner than just giving a random buff to nearby units. Plus it'd make him far more unique and allow him to roam around on his own a bit more. Those buffs like re-rolls to bite attacks would require him to always be escorted by saurus, otherwise the missed snakes still do nothing.

If it's too powerfull, try giving the player a choice between various buffs/debuffs and fluff it to depend on which type of snake came out.

 

[ILKAIN]

the missed snakes could become Jungle swarms, giving us a use for the models that are still included on sprues and GW could give them a stat line. something similar to tyranid spore mines in 40k... they move around and have a chance to do a mortal wound if they get close enough, but are fairly easy to dispose of with ranged weaponry.

 

[LizardWizard]

the missed snakes could become Jungle swarms, giving us a use for the models that are still included on sprues and GW could give them a stat line. something similar to tyranid spore mines in 40k... they move around and have a chance to do a mortal wound if they get close enough, but are fairly easy to dispose of with ranged weaponry.

Then we can have our Jungle Swarms fight Rat Swarms! That would be all the motivation I need to build and paint all the Skaven I have hiding in boxes in my closet.