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AoS Balanced games Seraphon vs. X

EDIT: Why the warriors? Don't they die too quickly here?

Also I just realized the second Khorgorath cannot be part of the bataillon? Because it says 1 Korgorath and not one unit of Korgoraths, right? (I actually don't have the book here, I just googled it)
 
I think it may be unit, the warriors are somewhat squishy, but buffed by the scar-vet and the bastiladon shooting everything, they should be able to hold. I have been wrong before though!
 
take something shooty to take out the bloodsecrator and his army rapidly falls apart.

Other issues with the bloodhound army: The bloodsecrator is slow and his army needs to stick together. Some skinks constantly falling back whenever he engages and just pelting him with ranged fire would wreck his army.

the bloodreavers are squishy, battleshock immunity is cool and all, but 40 skinks firing a single volley into it should kill somewhere around 10 fairly reliably.

korgoraths might actually work if you have more than 1. They'd actually stand a chance at regularly killing something for healing themselves then (one korgorath is too little for that, also where the hell do you buy em)

the warlord is only really interesting if he gets to fight our lord or big monsters with his magic one shot axe. Again, skinks running away from him will ruin his day.

Valkia is the first one that would be able to keep up with the skinks so she is a nice addition.

anyway approaches for the seraphon to deal with this:

1) loads of skinks.
2) chameleons, especially when combined with terrain to hide behind
3) a bastillidon or stegadon to shoot down the bloodsecrator and tank the korgoraths. They need protection from the magic axe though.
4) split his army up threaten multiple objectives, his synergy falls apart if he can't stick together.

id say those are the safest counters. Going against him in me lee is probably a losing battle unless you get to go first and decimate him or can at least kill the bloodsecrator first. Also watch out for the magic axe. a lucky roll on your lord will be pain full.
 
Interesting thoughts, thanks to both of you!

I wonder how bigger armies of Bloodbound based on the one above would look like. Reason behind that:
I tend to say that Seraphon are not exactly strong against many armies in small battles (1000 points) but that balance shifts when armies get a bit bigger (because our synergy-providing units and bataillons are pretty expensive).
 
Aginor said:
Interesting thoughts, thanks to both of you!

I wonder how bigger armies of Bloodbound based on the one above would look like. Reason behind that:
I tend to say that Seraphon are not exactly strong against many armies in small battles (1000 points) but that balance shifts when armies get a bit bigger (because our synergy-providing units and bataillons are pretty expensive).
Click to expand...
take an eternal starhost vs a small army that has no mortal wounds and laugh as they can't even scratch you :p small armies are easy enough to steamroll as long ad you pick appropriatly. Id say seraphon is probably weakest in medium sized games. Too small to get full blown synergy, too big to rely on one battalion tailormade for the situation.
 
Oh dear, you're right!
It doesn't work for 500 points, but for 600 you can bring a minimum Eternal Starhost and have 80 points left for a Razor/Sally or ten Skinks or Tehenhauin.
That's probably "fun", regardless of what you choose.
 
Just got home and realised I ignored two possibilities:


  • Take a carnosaur & attempt to eat his lord before he gets the chance to attack you. after which your carnosaur can roam through his ranks fairly unupposed. Especially if you can manage to eat his lord & the bloodsecrator.
  • Take an eternity host and bet on the dice gods favouring you.

Basicly there's 2 things that you need to do in order to win.

  1. Keep his lord from using his magic axe on your big stuff
  2. Quickly either decimate his army or take out the bloodsecrator to minimize incoming attacks.
So get some big monsters to quickly kill stuff, or use the range and disengaging of skinks to bleed him dry, or use an eternal starhost and bet on the dice gods not screwing you over (statisticly you should stand a good chance, especially if you get to attack after standing still, that's easily 20+ wounds).

That should be all the options we have I think.
 
Ok, next one. I almost don't dare to ask about it though....
*sigh*, ok let's do this: Stormcast Eternals

This is probably going to be short because Stormcast are pretty damn strong and Seraphon aren't. Our best chance i probably sniping them, at least those units like a Knight Venator who can easily shoot our heroes from 30" away. Stormcast don't need buffs though, and even their most basic units are elite. Many of them do mortal wounds so they cut through even our most defensive line units (Saurus Guard).

So let's take this simple, non-cheesy 1000pt list without bataillons or any special synergies:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant (100)
- General
Lord-Castellant (100)
Knight-Venator (120)
Lord-Relictor (80)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammers
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (160)
5 x Paladin Retributors (220)

Total: 980/1000


It is an easy list built from the AoS starter box, plus two heroes and a few of those awesome crossbow guys.
I can't believe how cheap and tanky those guys are. Anyway, this thread isn't to whine but to talk about balance.

How would you fight this list?
I would probably try Chameleons to at least kill those ranged guys before they snipe my heroes. Unfortunately a Shadowstrike Starhost is too expensive for 1000 points.
The rest of the units mostly has bad movement, so maybe screening with Skinks and using wary fighters could work. The problem is killing them I guess. Everyone has at least two wounds, at least a 4+ save (and/or rerolls), and a few of those guys dish out mortal wounds to boot, which is bad news for everyone.


List:

Allegiance: Order
Skink Chief (60)
- General
- Golden Sickle & Blowpipe
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Skink Starpriest (100)
30 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
5 x Chameleon Skinks (120)
5 x Chameleon Skinks (120)
Bastiladon (300)

Total: 1020/1000

Yeah I know 20 points too much, this sucks. And it is pretty squishy but I guess if the Chameleons roll well and you win initiative you could pull it off. Many fast units which is good for claiming objectives.

I wondered if a more tanky list (Eternal Starhost) would work better, but meh... don't think so because mortal wounds.
Still here's such a list (also 20 points too much but whatever)

Allegiance: Order
Saurus Eternity Warden (140)
- General
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Skink Starpriest (100)
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (160)
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
5 x Saurus Guard (100)
5 x Chameleon Skinks (120)
5 x Chameleon Skinks (120)
Eternal Starhost (80)

Total: 1020/1000


Or maybe this third list, with monsters that do the shooting and Skink Handlers as chaff to stay below 1001:

Allegiance: Order
Skink Starpriest (100)
Skink Chief (60)
- General
- Golden Sickle & Blowpipe
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
20 x Skinks (160)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
3 x Skink Handlers (40)
Stegadon (260)
Bastiladon (300)

Total: 1000/1000




....or maybe charge into them with a Firelance and hope their archers don't hit? With a few Skinks right behind the Knights to shoot? Sounds like suicide to me though.

Allegiance: Order
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (260)
- Warblade
- Artefact: Quicksilver Potion
Skink Chief (60)
- General
- Golden Sickle & Blowpipe
- Trait: Master of Defense
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
5 x Saurus Knights (120)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (120)
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (120)
- Lances
30 x Skinks (240)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
Firelance Starhost (60)

Total: 980/1000


I seriously - just by looking at the numbers - can't see a promising variant though. Maybe in an objective-based match Seraphon could win because of movement, but otherwise?
So what do y'all think?
 
I played Stormcast and got a draw twice, they are very weak against magic and a buffed guards work well, use skinks to draw charges and Chamo's to take out the General.
 
Stormcast vs Seraphon is hilariously unbalanced at low point levels.

Their mortal wounds and vast ranged superiourity mean most of our stuff will die rapidly, especially if they roll well.

On the other hand, an eternal starhost is borderline immortal to anything that isn't mortal wounds and dishes out horrific amounts of damage. Similarly some of our monsters can go on a hilarious rampage, especially at such low point levels. Carnosaur goes off in the first round and eats an entire unit, or better yet the general, and the balance is now heavily skewed in your favour.

If I'd have to make a guess against a "balanced" stormcast army you'd get the following:

- A skink based list loses, unless the stormcast has little to no ranged firepower. As long as the skinks can kite they might eventually wittle the stormforged down. But the moment there's a single stormforged with shooty thing the skinks will probably get killed. They're too squishy while not dishing out all that much damage. Skinks could be used as effective supporting troops though.

- An eternity starhost will win if the stormforged don't bring copious amounts of mortal wounds or has amazing luck. The starhost is borderline immortal, especially with a priest for rerolls, and deals hilarious amounts of damage. The stormforged ranged superiority might allow them to pull through in certain situations. But in general the starhost will win as long as they don't get annihilated by mortal wounds.

- A monster based list stands a decent chance, but they're a tad expensive at this pointlevel. Plus a monster based list would be ignoring some rules.

- A saurus knight list depends heavily on the charge. If your charge fails you lose. In prolonged combat Knights do note trade well with pretty much anything
 
Well, we'll see I guess.
@Mesandres will probably build exactly that list (he decided against Khorne and Nurgle and bought his first few SCE units lately) and I will be a good sportsman and try out all variants I can imagine, perhaps including some that violate a rule or two, just for laughs. And then we'll see. :)
As of now I am not very hopeful though. I hope we get some goodies with the GHB2017 that make it a tad easier. Balance is hard it seems.
 
I've been playing my girlfriend who currently has

- Lord celestant on dracoth
- Lord castelant
- 5 liberators
- 5 liberators
- 3 Retributors
- 5 judicators
- 3 prosecutors
- Knight-Heraldor

It's about a 1000 points of the top of my head.

I've fought her with a eternal starhost, a slann, and some varying filler troops.

In neary every fight my starhost would eventually start annihilating entire units because they'd pump out 10-15 unsaved wounds in a single turn PER UNIT OF GUARDS whenever they could make use of the bonus they get when standing still. The only threats of note were her judicator's magic crossbow of doom & her dracoths stormbreath & her retrbutors. If she rolls well with them the starhost can be annihilated in a few turns.

Basicly the following happens in every match:

intially:
- She shoots at my stuff, 1-2 guards die to mortal wounds, my eternity warden probbly gets a wound.
- I shoot back, nothing of interest happens

Second/third round:
- We get into melee, if my guard have their bonus she losses at least 10-20 wounds worth of stuff.
- Some more guards get shot, apart from that no real losses.
- I summon something near her judicators or have my filler run around and charge them or something
- Something of hers blocks the remaining filler troops send for the judicator/castelant.

Fourth/fifth round
- My guards kill whatever is in melee with them, the retirbutors, liberators & lord celestant are probably the first to go down.
- Guards die to mortal wounds until only a handfull are remaining (usually about a unit worth remains), suffering no "normal" wounds.
- Eternity warden dies.
- Her judicators die

six round
- I proceed to mop up whatever is left.

In all honesty it's kind of depressing. She can't figure out a way to reliably kill my starhost and I can't figure out an army without the starhost that doesn't just get annihilated in turn.
 
Canas said:
I've been playing my girlfriend who currently has

- Lord celestant on dracoth
- Lord castelant
- 5 liberators
- 5 liberators
- 3 Retributors
- 5 judicators
- 3 prosecutors
- Knight-Heraldor

It's about a 1000 points of the top of my head.

I've fought her with a eternal starhost, a slann, and some varying filler troops.

In neary every fight my starhost would eventually start annihilating entire units because they'd pump out 10-15 unsaved wounds in a single turn PER UNIT OF GUARDS whenever they could make use of the bonus they get when standing still. The only threats of note were her judicator's magic crossbow of doom & her dracoths stormbreath & her retrbutors. If she rolls well with them the starhost can be annihilated in a few turns.

Basicly the following happens in every match:

intially:
- She shoots at my stuff, 1-2 guards die to mortal wounds, my eternity warden probbly gets a wound.
- I shoot back, nothing of interest happens

Second/third round:
- We get into melee, if my guard have their bonus she losses at least 10-20 wounds worth of stuff.
- Some more guards get shot, apart from that no real losses.
- I summon something near her judicators or have my filler run around and charge them or something
- Something of hers blocks the remaining filler troops send for the judicator/castelant.

Fourth/fifth round
- My guards kill whatever is in melee with them, the retirbutors, liberators & lord celestant are probably the first to go down.
- Guards die to mortal wounds until only a handfull are remaining (usually about a unit worth remains), suffering no "normal" wounds.
- Eternity warden dies.
- Her judicators die

six round
- I proceed to mop up whatever is left.

In all honesty it's kind of depressing. She can't figure out a way to reliably kill my starhost and I can't figure out an army without the starhost that doesn't just get annihilated in turn.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the write-up!
That really sounds kinda depressing. What I really hate is always playing the same thing. I like to be versatile. Man, I hope GHB2017 will create another viable option.
 
I think a major issue is the low points value we're playing at. At such a low point value you simply can't make a very well-rounded army. It'l be heavily focussed by the 1 battalion you can actually field. So if it happens to be cost-effective and counter your opponent the difference is immeadiatly staggering. It also doesn't help that our eternal starhost is the only small battallion that's provides a effective "core" for an army. For example if you'd take a shadowstrike host you might kill something good with your initial attacks, but the lack of good line-infantry means you'l most likely be overrun quickly after it as the surviving stormforged just cutthrough you. A shadowstrike simply doesn't have anything to follow up that intial attack with on its own.
 
Funny thing I have to cross-post here:

I took part in a small discussion about point values over at the TGA forums, I basically critizised the low cost of some units my examples were the SCE Lord Relictor and Knight Venator. In the end I had to correct my stance a bit, because I actually think those units aren't much too cheap if you compare them to other top tier armies.
Initially I compared them to Seraphon units though (because that's the army I know best) and the response from one of the users was really good and quote-worthy:

Here's what I wrote:
Well, or you could turn it around and say heroes of some armies are extremely too expensive. either way, if you just compare their values it strikes me as odd if you look at it:

- 12" flying move
- 3+ save
- 5 wounds
- three 30" ranged attacks: 2+/3+/-1/1
- another three 30" ranged attacks, 4+/3+/-/1, Rend -3 (minus three!!) on a 6
- and five melee attacks that are 3/4/-/1
- AND a one-time attack that may isntant-snipe almost any hero


is at 120, points actually cheaper than an Orruk Warboss or an Eternity Warden. So maybe those two should be 100 instead of 140, but there's something very wrong there.

EDIT: A bit more perspective: That guy's average damage (again, 30", which is only exceeded by artillery) is nearly on par with a Bastiladon, but he has 10" more range, more than double the move, the same save, and can fly. Ok he has three less wounds and doesn't ignore half of the mortal wounds he receives, but he is less than half the point cost. So what would you take:
A: Two Knight Venators AND a Lord-Relictor, OR
B: A single Bastiladon which is roughly same price?



EDIT: To clarify: I am not a hater, I actually like SCE, but there are very few armies that can compete with them, that either means they should be more expensive or the other ones should finally receive something that makes them better, which may either be cheaper point costs or better values on their warscrolls.
As a Seraphon player I notice we may lack power (very seldom seen winning against SCE, Ironjaws, FEC, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nighthaunt with Mournguls or Sylvaneth), but at least we are versatile enough to be a pain in the behind of a top tier army. Now and then. But others have it far worse.



EDIT: As for the Relictor, let's see:

Compared to a Skink Starpriest
- 1 wound more
- 3+ save compared to 5+
- half the move.
- One attack more, also 3+/3+/-1/1 instead of the Skink's 3+/4+/-1/1
- His ability is practically the same as the Skink's spell. It just cannot be unbound and always does the d3 damage, not only against chaos demons. He can also heal if he wishes. Only downside is 12" range instead of 20"

--> he is 20 points cheaper??
Click to expand...



and this is the response

Comparing things to Seraphon isn't really fair. They're pretty much the most overcosted army in the game, they get by on the fact that their unit synergies actually work. And most of the competitive armies compete with stormcasts, any army with even moderate mortal wound output will chew through a stormcast army fairly easily.
Click to expand...

I am not sure if he is right with the second part, because that's pretty much true for every army, but the first part is the interesting one.


Also interesting in that discussion: While I regard FEC as a pretty strong army the competitive players tend to disagree. That shocked me a bit because it seems FEC are very mobile and have quite a few abilities causing mortal wounds. But it seems their lack of shooting and squishiness (heroes get sniped and the army loses its bonuses that way) makes them weak against some armies.
 
@Aginor

Do Seraphon have the ability to output "moderate" mortal wounds, I think not, we are over costed and under powered a double hit, I think he is right SC don't have much protection against mortal wounds or magic but we don't have that much either, SC are vulnerable to rend.
 
Any army with any mortal wound output will chew through any army relatively easily though... So singling out SC as being vulnerable to them seems an odd choice.

SC are powerful because they don't rely on synergies - their individual units are powerful by themselves, so once things start dying they don't individually drop in power.

Consider two armies, both are considered equal while at 100% unit count.

Take away 25% of a Seraphon force and you could easily lose 50% of your armies power.

Take away 25% of a SC force, and you have 75% power remaining.

That's where SCs true power lies, which is overlooked quite often. Lots of armies rely on synergies and buffs, Seraphon are particularly vulnerable because we're actually bad without them.
 
Crowsfoot said:
@Aginor

Do Seraphon have the ability to output "moderate" mortal wounds, I think not, we are over costed and under powered a double hit, I think he is right SC don't have much protection against mortal wounds or magic but we don't have that much either, SC are vulnerable to rend.
Click to expand...

From the top of my head our abilities causing mortal wounds are:
- Knights, when charging, on a wound roll of six for a lance (which is a 4/4 attack so not exactly likely)
- Firelance adds 1 to the above
- Jungle Swarms on a hit of six *
- Arcane Bolt
- Starpriest's spell, but only against chaos demons.
- Kroak *
- Ark of Sotek *
- Engine of the Gods *
- Salamander when it wounded somebody, 50% chance

* = rarely played because otherwise rather bad, either because unreliable or squishy, or too expensive

... I think that's it. Actually it is more than I thought. I still would call it a rather rare occasion if anyone gets mortal wounds by Seraphon.
 
Next up: Seraphon vs. Deathrattle and Seraphon vs. Nighthaunt.
Those are two armies @Mesandres and I are working on.

List examples soon (tomorrow), and I really think those could be interesting to discuss because Deathrattle for example can be an enormous tarpit, which is something I believe Seraphon could struggle against, especially some lists.

So stat tuned, more balance discussion here soon! :)
 
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