AoS Balanced games Seraphon vs. X

[Canas]

So why exactly didn't het to cast spells in the second turn? Or am I just being stupid and missing something?

 

[Aginor]

He gave up in his hero phase of turn two. He would have been able to cast at that point but didn't see a point in continuing since half of his force was gone already.

We only played one round and a half.

 

[DeadlyRecluse]

Me and my boyfriend have a houserule that we can't concede unless 90% or more or your models have been removed from the game. It really helps keep people in the game, and AOS's system allows for crazy comebacks that I would've otherwise missed had I given up when things looked bad. Try and convince him to keep going no matter what cause if he wins on a comeback it'll be a massive confidence boost and hopefully will bring the "OP" comments to a minimum

 

[Crowsfoot]

He gave up in his hero phase of turn two. He would have been able to cast at that point but didn't see a point in continuing since half of his force was gone already.

We only played one round and a half.

So is he seeing that he keeps over extending with his troops?

 

[Canas]

Me and my boyfriend have a houserule that we can't concede unless 90% or more or your models have been removed from the game. It really helps keep people in the game, and AOS's system allows for crazy comebacks that I would've otherwise missed had I given up when things looked bad. Try and convince him to keep going no matter what cause if he wins on a comeback it'll be a massive confidence boost and hopefully will bring the "OP" comments to a minimum

That does require the occasional comeback though, nothing quite as depressing as a slow inevitable drawn-out defeat.

And as crowsfoot is asking, is he learning from his mistakes? Cuz he seems to keep ramming his maw crusha in unsupported. Allowing you 1 free round of mostly unretaliated shooting with your stegadon and bastillidon should not be as bad for him as immeadiatly losing a quarter of his amy's worth.

 

[Crowsfoot]

That does require the occasional comeback though, nothing quite as depressing as a slow inevitable drawn-out defeat.

And as crowsfoot is asking, is he learning from his mistakes? Cuz he seems to keep ramming his maw crusha in unsupported. Allowing you 1 free round of mostly unretaliated shooting with your stegadon and bastillidon should not be as bad for him as immeadiatly losing a quarter of his amy's worth.

Beat way to learn is by getting your ass handed to you

 

[Aginor]

Me and my boyfriend have a houserule that we can't concede unless 90% or more or your models have been removed from the game. It really helps keep people in the game, and AOS's system allows for crazy comebacks that I would've otherwise missed had I given up when things looked bad. Try and convince him to keep going no matter what cause if he wins on a comeback it'll be a massive confidence boost and hopefully will bring the "OP" comments to a minimum

That's a very good suggestion! We have had such games already, when in the end it was six Skinks vs. two Orruks and the rest of both armies was dead, with stuff like Starpriests running into melee hoping to backstab an Orruk with their dagger, the Wardokk hitting (and killing) the last Saurus Warrior with his melee weapon and so on.
The thing just is: I can hardly imagine any combination of events that would have lead to him winning that one last friday, which is why I accepted his capitulation at that point.

So is he seeing that he keeps over extending with his troops?

I am not sure. His line of thought as I imagine it to be:
A - I have a pure melee army, Seraphon has range
B -> I have to go into melee ASAP
C -> if I don't go first he will advance a few inches and shoot with the Stegadon and the Bastiladon until I die
D -> I have to go first
E -> when I go first and don't make the charge everyone is in range and gets shot.
F -> dammit everyone failed their charge, only the Maw-Krusha has enough range to make it in this round. Two options
--->1: I charge, I do some damage, then the Seraphon shoot and the Maw-Krusha dies.
--->2: I don't charge. I don't do damage. The Seraphon will then shoot AND charge the Maw-Krusha so he dies without doing a single wound.
G -> I have to charge with everyone that can and hope for the best, or at least that the Seraphon mess up their charge as well.
H ----> rest is dice luck.

And honestly I am not sure where he is wrong. I imagined I would be the Orruk player. What would I do? Perhaps I'd let the Seraphon get first turn (or take it myself, buffing my units, but don't advance) and hope they advance far enough so I can kill them (only the units with long range can shoot me at that point).... I think I would do that, maybe use those scraplaunchers to force the Seraphon to not turtle, and then countercharge them hard. In that melee vs. melee situation with the Firelance the Knights' low movement may hurt them seriously then.

 

[Crowsfoot]

That's a very good suggestion! We have had such games already, when in the end it was six Skinks vs. two Orruks and the rest of both armies was dead, with stuff like Starpriests running into melee hoping to backstab an Orruk with their dagger, the Wardokk hitting (and killing) the last Saurus Warrior with his melee weapon and so on.
The thing just is: I can hardly imagine any combination of events that would have lead to him winning that one last friday, which is why I accepted his capitulation at that point.


I am not sure. His line of thought as I imagine it to be:
A - I have a pure melee army, Seraphon has range
B -> I have to go into melee ASAP
C -> if I don't go first he will advance a few inches and shoot with the Stegadon and the Bastiladon until I die
D -> I have to go first
E -> when I go first and don't make the charge everyone is in range and gets shot.
F -> dammit everyone failed their charge, only the Maw-Krusha has enough range to make it in this round. Two options
--->1: I charge, I do some damage, then the Seraphon shoot and the Maw-Krusha dies.
--->2: I don't charge. I don't do damage. The Seraphon will then shoot AND charge the Maw-Krusha so he dies without doing a single wound.
G -> I have to charge with everyone that can and hope for the best, or at least that the Seraphon mess up their charge as well.
H ----> rest is dice luck.

And honestly I am not sure where he is wrong. I imagined I would be the Orruk player. What would I do? Perhaps I'd let the Seraphon get first turn (or take it myself, buffing my units, but don't advance) and hope they advance far enough so I can kill them (only the units with long range can shoot me at that point).... I think I would do that, maybe use those scraplaunchers to force the Seraphon to not turtle, and then countercharge them hard. In that melee vs. melee situation with the Firelance the Knights' low movement may hurt them seriously then.

What size table do you play on, does he spread his units out forcing you to target one?

 

[Aginor]

My table is around... 6 ft x 3.5 ft (180cm x 105cm) or so in size. We usually set up so the territorial border is across the smaller side, although we have played it the other way too once or twice. That usually ends with me hugging the back of the table though, and when we drink beer (which we do) we tend to tip minis off the edge and it ends in tears so we both prefer it the other way round.

He usually spreads his army as widely as possible while still trying to stay in range for his buffs, but allowing all units to be as fast at my line as possible, using his Ironfist and Rampaging Destroyer buffs.
I tend to make my line as small as I can because I know he then has to be careful with moving and he often ends up standing in his own way.

He usually deploys as far towards my line as allowed (12" from the border) while I usually deploy 16" away from my border since his infantry goes 4+1d6+1d6+2d6 = 17" on average and 28" (where I am) is the theoretical maximum (an 1/1296 chance if I am not mistaken, quite unlikely).
I am standing 28 inches away from him so his infantry will never charge me, and his cavalry has 22" average and 33" max which is still damn unlikely.

Only real downside I see is my loss of board control, but at the moment we don't often play with objectives.

 

[Aginor]

Just for demo purposes: here is the situation after the charge phase but before the combat phase in round one first turn (Orruks went first). The Stegadon died in that combat phase.

The second picture is after the end of round one.

The third is after I won initiative and took turn one in round two. At that point he gave up.

 

[Canas]

Beat way to learn is by getting your ass handed to you

True, especially if you want to t hen wipe their grin of their face

 

[Canas]

Just for demo purposes: here is the situation after the charge phase but before the combat phase in round one first turn (Orruks went first). The Stegadon died in that combat phase.

The second picture is after the end of round one.

The third is after I won initiative and took turn one in round two. At that point he gave up.
View attachment 30398 View attachment 30399 View attachment 30400

First picture:
That maw krusha is so horrendously overextended AND facing 3 behemoths AND being shot at by razordons, unless he manage to basicly kill every behemoth there in its melee phase there isnt'a change in hell it'd be a good trade for the orruks.

Second picture:
Did he lose both the maw crusha and an entire units of Orruks and his boars? This is only 1 turn apart right? The hell killed all of that?

Third picture:
Yea he's not coming back at that point

As for his line of thinking basicly he should do the following:

1. Stop overextending.
2. Minimize the shots you can get off
3. Get something that can weather the barrage of being shot at, e.g. give the maw-krusha a mystic shield and ignore a good chunk of the bastillidons & stegadon's attacks.

Even if all the maw-krusha gets to do is to eat shots until your various orruks can reach the behemoths that might still be worth it, the orruks deal a lot of damage and should quite quickly deal with your behemoths if they can manage to reach them.

Minor sidenote, why are about 5 of his units just standing at the back not doing much? I assume one of em is the weirdknob, but what are the others?

 

[Aginor]

Well, he did have some really bad rolls there.
From his view left to right:
Front line was 10 Savage Boar boys. He lost three killed by the Knights, two ran away because of the Carnosaur, and the rest rolled a really bad battleshock. Something like that.
The Aleguzzler was severely mauled by the Carno in round one and then died in round two, falling on his Ardboyz to boot.
Those didn't have enough space in the first round so obly two could even attack.
The Gore-Gruntas got hit by the Knights hard, the other Ardboyz group to their right didn't do well either. There is my Scarvet on Cold One who did terrible damage with his -2 rend (courtesy of the Obstinate Blade) and even the Basti and the Razordon had good rolls in that turn, both ranged and melee. IIRC the Razordons made 21 attacks, with rerolled wounds by the bataillon. That close they have rend -1. That hurt.
The Ardboyz couldn't fight back properly, they had to split their attacks between the Basti, the Razordons, the Scarvet and the Knights. Battleshock (made worse by the Troglodon and the Knights banner) caused the unit to break down.

In the backfield there are two warbosses, one with banner on a boar and one on foot, also a Warchanter and the Weirdnob. The reason they are behind is that their rampaging destroyer roll went bad and they are slower than the Ironfist anyway. To the far left is the Wardokk who should have buffed the Savage Boarboyz but failed, and to the far right is the artillery.

EDIT I think my description of the second picture was wrong. I am pretty sure it was taken after the shooting phase of round 2, turn1 (Seraphon).

 

[Aginor]

Further clarification:
I think he was pretty sure I'd play Skinks and was not prepared for what I actually brought. He uses those two warbosses to try and prevent the Shadowstrike to snipe his Weirdnob, which was of course useless in this case.

He placed the artillery in such an advanced position to be close enough to shoot heroes and/or Skinks placed further behind the border. Again, this was because he thought there were going to be Skinks. He then tried to use them as blockers at least.

 

[Canas]

Well against this matchup that artillery is only really usefull as cannonfodder so fair enough

As for holding back his warbosses to protect the weirdknob. That feels... wrong. It might also work better if he simply goes all in with everything not caring too much about shadowstrikes. It would be more greenskin-like at least, not sure if it'd actually be more effective.

Anyway, I think we've covered everything for this battle, he overextended, had abysmall luck, brought some useless stuff with his artillery, thats about it right?

 

[Aginor]

Yeah I think so.
I'm looking forward to our next game. We will most likely play with a bit of terrain and he will likely have a more effective army as well.
I will relay those tactical hints to him and we'll see how it goes.

Thank you!

 

[Crowsfoot]

Yeah I think so.
I'm looking forward to our next game. We will most likely play with a bit of terrain and he will likely have a more effective army as well.
I will relay those tactical hints to him and we'll see how it goes.

Thank you!

Terrain will make a difference.

 

[Canas]

Terrain will make a difference.

Provided he doesn't get bugged down by it it should be mostly in his advantage providing cover.

 

[Aginor]

Ok next round: Khorne Bloodbound

We talked about them, because they look VERY cool and are pretty cheap it seems, especially those from the AoS Starter Box
So I took a look at the warscrolls for some units,and wow they look like they could be really fun to play, and also quite powerful.

Imagine a game of around 1000 points, like this list here:

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Mighty Lord Of Khorne (140)
- General
Bloodsecrator (120)
Bloodstoker (80)
Valkia The Bloody (120)

Battleline
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxes
- 1x Goreglaives
20 x Bloodreavers (140)
- Reaver Blades

Units
2 x Khorgoraths (200)

Battalions
Goreblade Warband (60)

Total: 960/1000




As you can see that list is basically the AoS Starter Box contents plus another Khorgorath and Valkia.
What are the strengths and weaknesses here? I see lots of potential, with speed, LOADS of attacks, battleshock immunity, unbinding spells (Mighty Lord), quite some good saves (more than I had expected from Khorne to be honest) and perhaps even some nice tanking (Khorgoraths) and sniping (Valkia), but no mortal wounds (I heard there are other Khorne Bloodbounds who bring some though).


The Bloodsecrator seems to be the key. If the Khorne player can keep him alive and stay near him (daisy chains if necessary) I imagine those would be pretty strong against any Seraphon army.

Our battleshock stuff doesn't work (it would normally demoslish the Bloodreavers but if he stays close to the Bloodsecrator he will be fine), and the Bloodreavers - while looking pretty bad initially - become pretty scary with all those buffs from the Mighty Lord, the Bloodstoker and the Bloodsecrator.

Reminds me of Seraphon a bit: Ten Skinks are not that good, but 30-40 Skinks + an Astrolith Bearer + a Skink Chief are quite scary.

What astonishes me most about the Bloodsecrator: Its price! Wow that guy is cheap. Compared with our Astrolith bearer he is stronger in melee (same attacks but more, better save, only one wound less), and he does
- block magic within 18" (successful casts must be re-rolled)
- adds an attack to every melee weapon of every Khorne unit within 18" (holy ****!!!)
- makes all Khorne units within 18" immune to battleshock (another big one)
- is actually 40 points cheaper?

So the ideas I could come up with in 1000 points are not too numerous:
- Eternal Starhost + Skink Priest + Bastiladon maybe? I thik a 2+ save might be pretty nice, and the Basti could shoot the Bloodsecrator.
- Shadowstrike to snipe the Bloodsecrator. Use Terradons and Chameleons ( I assume any player will be covering him so melee won't work), try flying over him, dropping bombs, and then shoot him. If it fails you're toast though.
- Lure him away from the Bloodsecrator, and shoot him with lots of Skinks
- Perhaps a Firelance? If you go first tear into his units before he can get the buffs up? But you have only one chance, the Knights won't stand his attacks.

Really interesting army! Would love to try a few things against those guys. What do you think?

 

[Bowser]

2 bastiladons would be useful here, some warriors and a scar-vet on cold one. Skink Starpriest to buff them up a bit.
Or one bastiladon, a scar-vet on cold one, 2 units of Warriors and 2 units of chameleons.