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Tutorial The Old World Lizardmen Army PDF is out and free

RipperDerek said:
Posting this analysis here in case anyone finds it helpful.
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Could you please make some tests (if they are automated) with Carno + Aura of Quetzl alone and with the Bedazzling Helm. I'm still trying to find what could be better - saves or reducing hit chance (considering our low WS and Ini).
 
Ersh said:
Could you please make some tests (if they are automated) with Carno + Aura of Quetzl alone and with the Bedazzling Helm. I'm still trying to find what could be better - saves or reducing hit chance (considering our low WS and Ini).
Click to expand...

Do you mean, one with only Aura of Quetzal, and one with only Bedazzling Helm? I'm not sure I understand. Can you just post the two builds you want me to use? It is automated, so I should be able to plug it in easily.
 
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RipperDerek said:
Do you mean, one with only Aura of Quetzal, and one with only Bedazzling Helm? I'm not sure I understand. Can you just post the two builds you want me to use? It is automated, so I should be able to plug it in easily.
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Yep, exactly. Both great weapons, one with Quetzal + Helm, another one just Quetzal
 
Ersh said:
Yep, exactly. Both great weapons, one with Quetzal + Helm, another one just Quetzal
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I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't think that setup will get at what you want...both setups still have a 4+ armor save. The helm improves the oldblood's armor save from 5+ to 4+, but you have to choose to use either the oldblood or the carnosaur's save, both of which are 4+. Or maybe I still don't get what you're trying to test? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.

I can do it with a spear and shield instead tomorrow morning, so the one with the helm has a 3+, if that's more helpful? Eh, I guess I'll just run both.
 
RipperDerek said:
I'm not trying to be difficult, but I don't think that setup will get at what you want...both setups still have a 4+ armor save. The helm improves the oldblood's armor save from 5+ to 4+, but you have to choose to use either the oldblood or the carnosaur's save, both of which are 4+. Or maybe I still don't get what you're trying to test? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
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No worries.
I'm trying to find what would be more effective - tanking while reducing the opponent's chance to hit us with Aura/Helmet or with Ward/Armour saves.
 
It would be interesting to see what is more viable the -1 to hit or an improved armour save for a budget build of the old blood
The negative ap is not as common as 8th so personally I feel the investment into a ward save & a -1 to hit is better as you can purchase better magic weapons or put points elsewhere
 
Ersh said:
No worries.
I'm trying to find what would be more effective - tanking while reducing the opponent's chance to hit us with Aura/Helmet or with Ward/Armour saves.
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Here you go, hope this helps:
  • 16.403 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon
  • 20.339 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl
  • 19.976 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Bedazzling Helm
  • 21.797 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Talisman of Protection
  • 22.143 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Talisman of Protection
  • 20.664 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Aura of Quetzl
  • 18.342 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Sword of Might, Bedazzling Helm, Shield, Hide of the Cold Ones
It's worth mentioning again that this number is an efficiency score (somewhat more complicated than this and scaled up to be meaningful, but essentially how much combat res is being generated per point). The version with the bedazzling helm having a lower score than without doesn't mean it fights worse, it means the improvement in combat capability wasn't proportional to the increase in point cost.

Here is the raw fightiness-metric, in case you'd rather have that:
  • 6.151 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon
  • 7.221 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl
  • 8.290 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Bedazzling Helm
  • 8.392 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Talisman of Protection
  • 8.503 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Talisman of Protection
  • 8.142 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Aura of Quetzl
  • 7.557 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Sword of Might, Bedazzling Helm, Shield, Hide of the Cold Ones
This metric doesn't take points into account, and is just how well they fought relative to other builds. AFAIK the best overall performers are still the ones from my first post.
 
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My fav combos for the COB are
a) meteoric iron, talisman of protection, great weapon (possibly adding burning sword as an option in case ethereal is around) (54 points/59 points)
B) shield, biting blade, talisman of protection (47 points)
C) shield, ogre blade, talisman of protection
(97 points)

I am not sure I rate the dragon slayer as I feel the dragons can use fly to avoid us, will likely strike first, and at 4+ to hit and 5+ to wound with 4 attacks it's very possible you're not hitting.
 
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discomute said:
My fav combos for the COB are
(possibly adding burning sword as an option in case ethereal is around) (54 points/59 points)
.
Click to expand...

If you have a magic weapon - you _must_ use it and can't switch to a normal one unless magical is destroyed. So I recommend taking at least a sword of might if you will face ethereal opponents. If you need fire damage, I recommend frog's venom - fire + poison.
 
Just a question… no one thinking to play revered tzunki blade+ talisman of protection?
but you need to play an oldlord instead a veteran

I tested yesterday ogre blade and is not that bad, but if you have high armour save (as many has at least 3+) isn’t so effective…. Ok armour bane but still 33%chance to save. The great weapon is probably better
 
Regarding be hitted… WS 5 or 6 doesn’t matter a lot against the rider but does matter against the dragon, mostly will have big heroes on dragons with 7.
That means if they have the gel the carnosaur will hit at 6+…. Nice right? And the Saurus hero at 5+
 
RipperDerek said:
Here you go, hope this helps:
  • 16.403 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon
  • 20.339 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl
  • 19.976 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Bedazzling Helm
  • 21.797 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Talisman of Protection
  • 22.143 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Talisman of Protection
  • 20.664 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Aura of Quetzl
  • 18.342 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Sword of Might, Bedazzling Helm, Shield, Hide of the Cold Ones
It's worth mentioning again that this number is an efficiency score (somewhat more complicated than this and scaled up to be meaningful, but essentially how much combat res is being generated per point). The version with the bedazzling helm having a lower score than without doesn't mean it fights worse, it means the improvement in combat capability wasn't proportional to the increase in point cost.

Here is the raw fightiness-metric, in case you'd rather have that:
  • 6.151 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon
  • 7.221 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl
  • 8.290 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Bedazzling Helm
  • 8.392 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Aura of Quetzl, Talisman of Protection
  • 8.503 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Talisman of Protection
  • 8.142 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Great Weapon, Armor of Silvered Steel, Aura of Quetzl
  • 7.557 - Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur - Sword of Might, Bedazzling Helm, Shield, Hide of the Cold Ones
This metric doesn't take points into account, and is just how well they fought relative to other builds. AFAIK the best overall performers are still the ones from my first post.
Click to expand...

Thanks for these. The build with the Aura of Quetzl and Talisman of Protection isn't legal though, they are both Talismans.
 
Ersh said:
If you have a magic weapon - you _must_ use it and can't switch to a normal one unless magical is destroyed. So I recommend taking at least a sword of might if you will face ethereal opponents. If you need fire damage, I recommend frog's venom - fire + poison.
Click to expand...
You have blown my mind. This changes quite a lot. Yes I did think of taking a great weapon with a monster slaying sword. Or even just our obsidian weapons most of the time. But you can't. Wow.

So here is question for anyone, do you prefer the Ogre Blade or the Blade of Revered Tzunki better?
 
discomute said:
So here is question for anyone, do you prefer the Ogre Blade or the Blade of Revered Tzunki better?
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Both - 65 points. So no points for protection, and with our Init - waste of a hero.
I would say Giant Blade or Sword of Might. Cheap and leaves some points for protection, even for a Scarvet.
 
Ersh said:
Both - 65 points. So no points for protection, and with our Init - waste of a hero.
I would say Giant Blade or Sword of Might. Cheap and leaves some points for protection, even for a Scarvet.
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Why no protection? You can still have a talisman of protection and an armour save of 4+. It’s not a big armour save that’s true but you have the ward save. And you are much stronger against tanky leader on dragons
 
Kalisto said:
Why no protection? You can still have a talisman of protection and an armour save of 4+. It’s not a big armour save that’s true but you have the ward save. And you are much stronger against tanky leader on dragons
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Ofc you can. I'm just not sure that it's effective - check the table of points effectiveness a few pages ago. But - maybe I'm wrong, I just prefer to play safe with an Oldblood, because he is usually my general.
 
Ersh said:
Ofc you can. I'm just not sure that it's effective - check the table of points effectiveness a few pages ago. But - maybe I'm wrong, I just prefer to play safe with an Oldblood, because he is usually my general.
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I like it safe too. But if you cannot stop a dragon and you cost 400 points you are doing it wrong. Then just better to have it on a cold one. Pretty deadly, better armour save and lower cost.
Efficacy depends also always against what you play…
 
Kalisto said:
Just a question… no one thinking to play revered tzunki blade+ talisman of protection?
Click to expand...

Revered Blade of Tzunki + Talisman of Protection was the #2 ranked option for old blood build on my sheet. #1 was the ogre blade, but the two weren't far apart. (roughly 28 vs 25) They are also obviously better against different things, like ogre blade is better against ogres and blade of tzunki is better against chosen chaos knights and things.

Edit: I feel like I should add, the scar vet BSB build does win combat against most dragons, due in large part to the static combat res. But if you want an oldblood, I do think you should take one of the two swords.
 
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