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[airjamy]

Rules question, please...halp!

Skink Chief has the Poisoned Attacks rules. Unlike the other rules, it does not specify it does not apply to his mount.

View attachment 144921

Further, Stegadons have the Howdah rule, which says they follow the "Split Profile (Chariot)" rule. That rule says:

• Unless noted otherwise, any special rules that apply to one element (chariot, crew or beasts) apply to the others as well.

From this, I infer that a Skink Chief riding a Stegadon makes the Stegadon poisonous? That doesn't seem right, but I guess it is RAW?

Oh that is interesting. Eh, i guess so? Would mean that also the Skinks get is, which is quite strong with their weak S.

 

[discomute]

• The character, crew and beasts each use their own Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength,
Initiative and Attacks characteristics, and their own weapons.

Their own weapons. So I think you can make a reasonable claim that poisoned attacks RAW do not apply to the stegadon. Clearly some bad wording there.

 

[RipperDerek]

Their own weapons. So I think you can make a reasonable claim that poisoned attacks RAW do not apply to the stegadon. Clearly some bad wording there.

His weapons do not have the "poisoned attacks" rule, his general character profile does. Also, the "characters on chariots" section is even more clear that character special rules apply to the whole model...



I think it is hard to argue that this is not how RAW works, but I doubt it's RAI.

 

[airjamy]

Their own weapons. So I think you can make a reasonable claim that poisoned attacks RAW do not apply to the stegadon. Clearly some bad wording there.

It is not out of this world to imagine that a Skink Chief would bring his poisons to the fight and also poison the tusks of the steg and such and hand it out to the lads.

 

[discomute]

Yep I'm admitting I'm wrong on this one

 

[airjamy]

Yep I'm admitting I'm wrong on this one

I can totally follow along with your argument that this is maybe not intended, but it still could be.

Mounted characters seem to be quite strong in TOW. I do not know if that was intended (big dragon leading army cool!) or unintended (oh, we priced our magical gear to heroes on foot/on a horse, didn't quite think about that 30 point 5+ ward does a lot more for a 10 wound dragon than a 2 wound Skink Chief).

 

[GreenMachine]

can someone clarify for me: I don't know the page numbers, but referencing Character and Formations it says "A lone character is always considered to be in a skirmish formation" and then under skirmish, Facing and Line of Sight (skirmishers) it says "....giving skirmishers 360 line of sight"

Slann is a lone character, so it's treated as skirmisher? Does that mean it get's 360 line of sight? for spell casting?

 

[Ersh]

can someone clarify for me: I don't know the page numbers, but referencing Character and Formations it says "A lone character is always considered to be in a skirmish formation" and then under skirmish, Facing and Line of Sight (skirmishers) it says "....giving skirmishers 360 line of sight"

Slann is a lone character, so it's treated as skirmisher? Does that mean it get's 360 line of sight? for spell casting?

p184, "every arc is considered to be front arc" - so in my understanding - yes

 

[RipperDerek]

Seems pretty clear to me that as a lone character he is a skirmisher, and has 360 degree line of sight. The lone character rules say troop type must be Infantry or Cavalry to qualify as a "lone character," and he is "Monstrous Infantry," which is a sub-type of Infantry, so he qualifies. The skirmisher rules say "lone characters" are in skirmish formation. The skirmisher's line of sight section says their line of sight arc is 360 degrees, and every arc is their front arc. So I think it's pretty cut and dry!

Slightly weirder, my reading of the rules is that the Slann can join a unit if it wants to, but only if it is a unit of Kroxigor.

 

[Fxt]

Seems pretty clear to me that as a lone character he is a skirmisher, and has 360 degree line of sight. The lone character rules say troop type must be Infantry or Cavalry to qualify as a "lone character," and he is "Monstrous Infantry," which is a sub-type of Infantry, so he qualifies. The skirmisher rules say "lone characters" are in skirmish formation. The skirmisher's line of sight section says their line of sight arc is 360 degrees, and every arc is their front arc. So I think it's pretty cut and dry!

Slightly weirder, my reading of the rules is that the Slann can join a unit if it wants to, but only if it is a unit of Kroxigor.

It can't, unfortunatly.

can't join any ground units because of fly rule
can't join any aerial units because they are skirmisher monstrous cavarly, so only monstrous cavarly characters (as skink on fly pets) can join them.

in Tow the slann is a lone soul.

 

[RipperDerek]

It can't, unfortunatly.

can't join any ground units because of fly rule
can't join any aerial units because they are skirmisher monstrous cavarly, so only monstrous cavarly characters (as skink on fly pets) can join them.

in Tow the slann is a lone soul.

You are definitely correct! I missed the restriction from flying.

 

[RipperDerek]

Posting this analysis here in case anyone finds it helpful.

I made a giant spreadsheet simulating close combat results between various Lizardmen units and a bunch of representative enemy unit types (lord on dragon, monstrous infantry, elite infantry, regular infantry, etc.). I then totaled up the combat resolution earned by each side, found the difference, and converted that into an efficiency score based on how many points the units cost. Here are my results.

A positive score means, on average, they won the simulated combats. A negative score means, on average, they lost.

• +47.22 - Stegadon w/ Skink Chief (Cav. Spear, BSB + War Banner)
• +45.15 - Carnosaur w/Scar Veteran (Great Weapon, Meteoric Armor, Talisman of Protection, BSB + War Banner)
• +28.30 - Carnosaur w/Old Blood (Ogre Blade, Shield, Talisman of Protection)
• +27.17 - Cold One Riders (Cav. Spear, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• +27.11 - Stegadon w/Skink Chief (Cav. Spear)
• +20.99 - Ancient Stegadon (Default)
• +19.67 - Carnosaur w/Scar Veteran (Great Weapon, Meteoric Armor, Talisman of Protection)
• +14.39 - Stegadon (Default)
• +07.16 - Temple Guard (2 additional ranks, Choose Weapon, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• +05.29 - Temple Guard (2 additional ranks, Hand Weapons + Shields, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• +03.76 - Temple Guard (2 additional ranks, Halberds, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• +03.01 - Saurus (2 additional ranks, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer, Spears + Shields)
  
• -01.52 - Saurus (2 additional ranks, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer, Hand Weapon + Shields)
• -12.76 - Ripperdactyls (Even with blot toad...)
• -14.90 - Bastiladon (Default)
• -55.10 - Kroxigor (w/Champion)
• -80.05 - Salamanders (2x)
• -80.05 - Razordons (2x)
• -141.98 - Skinks (Javelins + Shields)
• -154.86 - Terradon Riders (Spawn Leader)

For places where different builds are possible, I only listed here the top performing builds out of the ones I tried. But, keep in mind many caveats:

1. Poison was not modeled at all - I originally didn't think it was important, because only the skink chief has it.
2. All these simulations assume we got the charge.
3. Units can have advantages that aren't just close combat, and this rating doesn't consider that at all.
4. This is blended rating across the field. Specific units can do better in specific situations (e.g., ripperdactyls into something soft and fleshy.)
5. Most units (saurus, temple guard, cold one riders, etc.) are assumed to be 5 wide.

 

[discomute]

Posting this analysis here in case anyone finds it helpful.

I made a giant spreadsheet simulating close combat results between various Lizardmen units and a bunch of representative enemy unit types (lord on dragon, monstrous infantry, elite infantry, regular infantry, etc.). I then totaled up the combat resolution earned by each side, found the difference, and converted that into an efficiency score based on how many points the units cost. Here are my results.

A positive score means, on average, they won the simulated combats. A negative score means, on average, they lost.

• +47.22 - Stegadon w/ Skink Chief (Cav. Spear, BSB + War Banner)
• +45.15 - Carnosaur w/Scar Veteran (Great Weapon, Meteoric Armor, Talisman of Protection, BSB + War Banner)
• +28.30 - Carnosaur w/Old Blood (Ogre Blade, Shield, Talisman of Protection)
• +27.17 - Cold One Riders (Cav. Spear, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• +27.11 - Stegadon w/Skink Chief (Cav. Spear)
• +20.99 - Ancient Stegadon (Default)
• +19.67 - Carnosaur w/Scar Veteran (Great Weapon, Meteoric Armor, Talisman of Protection)
• +14.39 - Stegadon (Default)
• +05.29 - Temple Guard (2 additional ranks, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• -01.52 - Saurus (2 additional ranks, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer, Hand Weapon + Shields)
• -12.76 - Ripperdactyls (Even with blot toad...)
• -14.90 - Bastiladon (Default)
• -55.10 - Kroxigor (w/Champion)
• -80.05 - Salamanders (2x)
• -80.05 - Razordons (2x)
• -141.98 - Skinks (Javelins + Shields)
• -154.86 - Terradon Riders (Spawn Leader)

For places where different builds are possible, I only listed here the top performing builds out of the ones I tried. But, keep in mind many caveats:

1. Poison was not modeled at all - I originally didn't think it was important, because only the skink chief has it.
2. All these simulations assume we got the charge.
3. Units can have advantages that aren't just close combat, and this rating doesn't consider that at all.
4. This is blended rating across the field. Specific units can do better in specific situations (e.g., ripperdactyls into something soft and fleshy.)
5. Most units (saurus, temple guard, cold one riders, etc.) are assumed to be 5 wide.

We all think the Stegadon gains the poison if it is ridden by a skink.

Additionally - I would have loved to see Saurus with spears added to that list.

 

[RipperDerek]

We all think the Stegadon gains the poison if it is ridden by a skink.

Additionally - I would have loved to see Saurus with spears added to that list.

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about how the poison should work, it's just that when I made the simulation I didn't actually include the poison rule at all because at the time I thought it was mostly irrelevant. I might try to add it at some point in the next day or two.

Also I did test saurus with spears, it was slightly worse than the hand weapons, which is why the hand weapons are the ones included in the chart. I also tested like 40 different builds of magic items on the characters .

In the morning I can post the exact efficiency results from the spear saurus for you. One thing I haven't done yet is blocks of troops with a character in them...so if anyone has any particular build suggestions, I'm all ears.

 

[discomute]

Nice!

Well there goes my theory spears are way better.

Another theory I had was that obsidian blades & shields in the temple guard would end up better than halberds. I presume you ran them with halberds?

 

[WithCarbos]

Spears ... well. Their +1I when receiving is only theoretical, since most opponents will have +3I from charging anyway. So you'll take losses before striking back. Sure fight in extra rank is good, but only 1 attack per model in that rank is not. If you can get the charge, spears are worse than HWs; if you must receive, they're only a little better.

Assuming no dice spikes either way, a unit of Temple Guard 5 wide fights a unit of Spear Warriors, also 5 wide (practically the same ppm, literally the same if Warriors have Shieldwall). The Guard fight with halberds – Warriors charge with hand weapons and defend with spears (beware amateurish mistakes in the arithmetic):

Guard charging: 10 attacks, 6.7 hits, 4.49 wounds. 0.9 of these trigger AB. Warriors save against 3.59 on 5+, 0.9 on 6+: 3.15 final wounds.
Warriors strike back with either 1 or 2 models in front rank: at most 9 attacks * (0.5 * 0.5 * 0.67) = at most 1.5 wounds back.

Guard defending (first take 2 casualties): 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2.7 wounds. .54 of these trigger AB. Warriors save against 2.16 on 5+, 0.54 on 6+: 1.9 final wounds.

Temple Guard in other words do almost as much damage striking back against charging Spear Warriors as they receive, if the Warriors choose hand weapons. If the Warriors choose spears, it's even better. Guard with halberds also do better on the defense than Spear Warriors, and do not forget that Guard can take a magic standard. You need two Saurus infantry units? Take one unit of Warriors with hand weapons, and one unit of Temple Guard.

 

[RipperDerek]

Nice!

Well there goes my theory spears are way better.

Another theory I had was that obsidian blades & shields in the temple guard would end up better than halberds. I presume you ran them with halberds?

Edit: Sorry, for the edits, this was very sloppy of me. I was right the first time. This is what I get for staring at huge spreadsheets full of numbers and minimal formatting first thing in the morning.

• -04.55 - Saurus (2 additional ranks, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer, Spears)

One thing I hadn't tried is letting the temple guard change weapons against different opponents. Here are the results when they have halberds, and here are the results if they're allowed to use whichever weapon is better in each fight.

• +03.76 - Temple Guard (2 additional ranks, Halberds, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)
• +07.16 - Temple Guard (2 additional ranks, Choose Weapon, Spawn Leader, Standard Bearer)

I have edited the original post to include these results.

 

[Kalisto]

We all think the Stegadon gains the poison if it is ridden by a skink.

Additionally - I would have loved to see Saurus with spears added to that list.

Wait wait?? Why? In which edition?

 

[discomute]

Well I'm going to a lot of effort to put spears on my Saurus and rank them up so I don't want to hear it! Haha. I assume you kept the shields on the spears? It's written like you didn't. Also Saurus can technically choose which they like too.

What about the troglodon I'm keen to take them despite my suspicions

Most of what you've done is roughly what I thought. Except the Kroxigor....

 

[discomute]

Wait wait?? Why? In which edition?

Seems I mistyped. I meant skink chief. TOW.