The never-ending battle against woke Hollywood and SJW infused entertainment media [trigger warning]

[Just A Skink]

And yet the greatest and most talked about moment in the first two seasons was easily...

Lol. No doubt, no doubt. I am one of those who totally geeked out about it, too. Despite that, I don't think it takes away from my point that the show isn't about that classic character, and doesn't detract from/alter his general storyline. It looks like Amazon may be doing "whatever they want" with (at least) Galadriel's story and Tolkien's Middle Earth.

That's true in the sense that they weren't faithful to a pre-existing fan favourite character, which definitely resulted in at least some of its received backlash. As you suggest, if they wanted to go along a completely different path, they should have simply created a brand new character.

Yes, that's what I intended to imply. The writers weren't faithful to the character, as it looks like Amazon may not be with several of the LotR characters/world. I haven't seen the BoBF season myself, but from what I've read (and what friends have shared) I don't know that they handled the fan-fav character well. To be fair, I don't necessarily mind that they wanted to soften Fett, it just seems like they did a weak job at the story. Conceptually, I think Mando is basically a Fett proxy, and his story in several parts satisfied me more as a "this is the bounty hunter Boba Fett" story.

Sorry to digress from the LotR topic.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Sorry to digress from the LotR topic.

That's okay.

Star Wars > LOTR


*Ignites crimson lightsaber and waits for the LOTR fanboys*

"Let them come"

 

[Erta Wanderer]

That's okay.

Star Wars > LOTR


*Ignites crimson lightsaber and waits for the LOTR fanboys*

"Let them come"

SO BE IT. also don't quote Théoden while dissing him. tis bad form

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

SO BE IT. also don't quote Théoden while dissing him. tis bad form

 

[Erta Wanderer]

eh one does not need anger to disagree or even to fight. do sith gain power from joy?
regardless my fan base has lasted longer then yours, has more then 3 good movies, and isn't owned by Disney take that for what you will.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

eh one does not need anger to disagree or even to fight. do sith gain power from joy?

regardless my fan base has lasted longer then yours

Sure, it was released earlier, but it has been overtaken in terms of size and scope. You could say that Star Wars has achieved more and in less time!

has more then 3 good movies

Good LOTR content:

• LOTR movies (3)
• LOTR novels (3)
• Hobbit novel

Good Star Wars Content:

• Original Trilogy (3)
• Episode III
• Clone Wars classically animated series
• Clone Wars CGI animated series
• Thrawn trilogy of novels (3)
• Bane trilogy of novels (3)

and isn't owned by Disney

But you have a series being developed by Amazon and if rumours are true, there is a fair chance that the entirety of of LOTR could soon be owned by Amazon.

Disney... Amazon. Both are vile leftist mega corporations. Pick your poison.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Sure, it was released earlier, but it has been overtaken in terms of size and scope. You could say that Star Wars has achieved more and in less time!

well yeah it has made more money at the cost of internal consistency. it also means you have things like the Christmas movie.

Good LOTR content:

• LOTR movies (3)
• LOTR novels (3)
• Hobbit novel

animated return of the king and hobbit movies

• Episode III

• really? huh i would not count that one. like at all.

• Clone Wars classically animated series

  this one i get in a vacume. it throws a lot of plot holes and inconsistency into the thing but still a lot of fun

• Thrawn trilogy of novels (3)
  [*]Bane trilogy of novels (3)

  you kind of need you fan base to have heard of the thing let alone read it for it to count. unless you want to include the lost tails and Silmarillion. i don't but we can change that.
• also was decannonised.

But you have a series being developed by Amazon and if rumours are true, there is a fair chance that the entirety of of LOTR could soon be owned by Amazon.

Disney... Amazon. Both are vile leftist mega corporations. Pick your poison.

mmm you are hearing very different roomers then i am.
one bad show does not a franchise break, but lets not compare BAD media i have a feeling starwars has a lot more. even if we just stick to movies.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

well yeah it has made more money at the cost of internal consistency.

Way more money. Way larger fan base.

You're right that SW has less internal consistency. More stories, written by more people will always result in that. We're about to experience that with the Amazon series.

animated return of the king and hobbit movies

The hobbit movies are terrible. Overblown and all over the place in terms of tone. If we're using that as a threshold of good, then I can list off a bunch more Star Wars that equals or meets that criteria.

As far as the animated Return of the King, I have not seen it (or heard much about it), so I can't really comment on that one. Best I can go by is this:


That said, I can't say for certain how accurate that score is.

Episode III

really? huh i would not count that one. like at all.

Episode III is actually very well regarded. Much better than the animated Return of the King (which is largely forgotten) or the Hobbit movies (which are largely condemned).

I summon forth @Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl !!! Defend Episode III with your righteous fury!!!

• you kind of need you fan base to have heard of the thing let alone read it for it to count. unless you want to include the lost tails and Silmarillion. i don't but we can change that.

• also was decannonised.

Silmarillion is extremely poorly regarded. Only the hardest of LOTR fans seem to like that one. Both the Trawn and Bane trilogies are celebrated by the fan base. True it won't seep into the consciousness of the casuals, but the Star Wars fan base is HUGE.

As far as it being decanonized, that is absolutely meaningless. George Lucas canonized it and Kathleen Kennedy + Disney decanonized it. George Lucas, the creator behind the franchise, outranks them. And even if he didn't, it would still be irrelevant as it is great content. Who cares what some giant mega corporation thinks?

At the end of the day, we all have the final say as to what is canon or not.

mmm you are hearing very different roomers then i am.

The IP is apparently going to be going up for sale and Amazon is said to be one of the interested parties. If that is the case, Jeff Bezos with his nearly unlimited mounds of cash has to be one of the favorites.

one bad show does not a franchise break, but lets not compare BAD media i have a feeling starwars has a lot more. even if we just stick to movies.

Star Wars has more media, both good and bad. I'd still prefer that over less media, because I can always choose not to engage with the bad stuff and I have more good stuff at my disposal.

I haven't even mentioned video games yet, KOTOR is extremely popular and has a cult like following.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

The hobbit movies are terrible. Overblown and all over the place in terms of tone. If we're using that as a threshold of good, then I can list off a bunch more Star Wars that equals or meets that criteria.

animated hobbit move bud. the one from 77 not the hobbit trilogy.

As far as the animated Return of the King, I have not seen it (or heard much about it), so I can't really comment on that one. Best I can go by is this:
View attachment 108736

That said, I can't say for certain how accurate that score is.

not very as tis the critic score and we all know how... biased they are. try it out before you bash it. i have read/watched/played every thing i mention.

Episode III is actually very well regarded. Much better than the animated Return of the King (which is largely forgotten) or the Hobbit movies (which are largely condemned).

infamy is a great way to be remembered. and most of it's resent praise is from how bad the sequels are. the movie falls apart under any length of scrutiny and has some of the worst dialog/delivery in the series(only beaten out by the second. tell me more about sand)

Silmarillion is extremely poorly regarded. Only the hardest of LOTR fans seem to like that one.

what? no it isn't if we want to trust internet polls (i don't but you brought it up first.) it's at 4/5 on good reads and 4.8/5 on google. it's not for every one but then again i don't think every thing should be. i value nech appeal far more then general praise most movies now a days are all about appealing to every one and most suffor for it.

As far as it being decanonized, that is absolutely meaningless. George Lucas canonized it and Kathleen Kennedy + Disney decanonized it. George Lucas, the creator behind the franchise, outranks them. And even if he didn't, it would still be irrelevant as it is great content. Who cares what some giant mega corporation thinks?

and that's my point. when no one can agree on what's real a set of fiction falls apart very quickly.

The IP is apparently going to be going up for sale and Amazon is said to be one of the interested parties. If that is the case, Jeff Bezos with his nearly unlimited mounds of cash has to be one of the favorites.

a source would be helpful. all i can find is the rights being for sale not the IP itself.

Star Wars has more media, both good and bad. I'd still prefer that over less media, because I can always choose not to engage with the bad stuff and I have more good stuff at my disposal.

but more bad then good. much lower lows to. with things like Waru, the inter-dimensional golden blob from crystal star, the charismas show, the ewock movies, the children series, skippy the Jedi droid, and dark saber.(all of which i have read or watched.)

I haven't even mentioned video games yet, KOTOR is extremely popular and has a cult like following.

likewise i was leaving out video games LotRs stands in a weird place where the movie tie in games are actualy good? wow never thought i would see the day. that said i think we tie hear there are very good and bad games from both series

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

try it out before you bash it.

I'm not intending to bash it. I feel I made my lack of familiarity with the movie known and admitted the IMDB score may not be perfectly representative...




It might very well be okay. That said, I doubt it is going to be spectacular since it is rarely ever talked about and largely forgotten.

infamy is a great way to be remembered. and most of it's resent praise is from how bad the sequels are. the movie falls apart under any length of scrutiny and has some of the worst dialog/delivery in the series(only beaten out by the second. tell me more about sand)

I admit that the PT has gotten a bit more praise since the onset of the awful ST, but Episode III was quite popular from the start. It is clearly the best of the PT and stands as a pretty good movie. Some of the dialogue is poor, but it is a fun film and your description of "infamy" seems unfair and out of touch with the general consensus surrounding the film (even before the ST was ever released). I'm sure those animated Hobbit and Return of the King films can be nitpicked too if one were so inclined.

a source would be helpful. all i can find is the rights being for sale not the IP itself.

I watched a video on it, but unfortunately I don't remember which one. Too lazy to go through all the videos I watched. Time will tell.

no it isn't if we want to trust internet polls (i don't but you brought it up first.) it's at 4/5 on good reads and 4.8/5 on google.

Boosted by the fact that only hardcore LOTR fans will read and review it. From what I have heard it is not really a fun read. The fact that it only exists in the fringes also supports the fact that it isn't exactly a mainstream success. I guess we value different things when it comes to determining the success of something.

but more bad then good. much lower lows to. with things like Waru, the inter-dimensional golden blob from crystal star, the charismas show, the ewock movies, the children series, skippy the Jedi droid, and dark saber.(all of which i have read or watched.)

The point is that it has more collective good things than the LOTR franchise does. The LOTR franchise, despite individual preferences, only really achieved mainstream success with the LOTR books, LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit. Everything else is either a failure, largely forgotten or only appeals to the absolute most dedicated members of the fan base. Star Wars has more collective properties that have achieved success.

likewise i was leaving out video games LotRs stands in a weird place where the movie tie in games are actualy good? wow never thought i would see the day. that said i think we tie hear there are very good and bad games from both series

Really? Name one LOTR game with the success and following that KOTOR has.




Don't get me wrong, I like LOTR, but it simply does not objectively compare to Star Wars in terms of:

• size of the fan base
• financial success of the franchise

Most of the things we are discussing are subjective, the above is not. LOTR, although greatly successful, has never hit the heights that Star Wars has. Star Wars is everywhere. It is more deeply permeated into society than any other franchise. Star Trek, LOTR, Harry Potter and others simply can't match its reach. Marvel might be the one exception... time will tell.

Even our beloved Lustria Online serves as an excellent microcosm. There is FAR more Star Wars content on here than LOTR. There is almost as much Star Wars content as there is Warhammer/AoS content . So either there are more Star Wars fans or the ones that do exist are more devoted.... or both!

Also

Spoiler: we have...

 

[Scalenex]

eh one does not need anger to disagree or even to fight. do sith gain power from joy?

Palpatine gains joy from having power. Most of the other Sith, especially Vader, seem to have little joy.

That's okay.

Star Wars > LOTR

That's a steak or strawberry question for me. They are both good and too different to make direct comparisons. If I had to make a direct comparisons I would say LOTR is the stronger universe.

The relative recentness of Star Wars makes Star Wars more culturally relevant. There is certainly a lot MORE Star Wars out there.

I won't be alive to see it, but I bet in 100 years, LOTR will still be cultural relevant and Star Wars probably will not be. Given that LOTR is quite old and has generations of fans and hordes Tolkien scholars, the universe will survive Jeff Bezos. Unless the CCP gains ownership of Amazon after Bezos dies shudders.

After the way the Book of Boba Fett turned out, I don't expect Star Wars to recover. Not unless it becomes public domain. Then it has a small fighting chance. We'll see. Disney's copyright on Mickey Mouse expires in 2024, but I expect Disney's lobbyists to start leaning on Congress to fix this as soon as the 2022 midterms are over.

Anyway, pretty much every fantasy franchise that exists now is a spiritual successor of Tolkien's work. Where are the spiritual successors of Star Wars? I cannot name one, but Star Wars itself is a spiritual successor of Flash Gordon.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Where are the spiritual successors of Star Wars? I cannot name one, but Star Wars itself is a spiritual successor of Flash Gordon.

Special effects-wise, everything is pretty much the spiritual successor to Star Wars. We may scoff at the effects now, but in their day they were absolutely revolutionary. The birth of industrial light and magic. Star Wars pushed the entire movie industry forward. Not to mention that Star Wars is completely interwoven into pop culture and society.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I admit that the PT has gotten a bit more praise since the onset of the awful ST, but Episode III was quite popular from the start. It is clearly the best of the PT and stands as a pretty good movie. Some of the dialogue is poor, but it is a fun film and your description of "infamy" seems unfair and out of touch with the general consensus surrounding the film (even before the ST was ever released). I'm sure those animated Hobbit and Return of the King films can be nitpicked too if one were so inclined.

there is a very big difference between nitpicking and fundamentally flawed. there are plot holes in the 3rd movie that you could drive pod racers thru

I watched a video on it, but unfortunately I don't remember which one. Too lazy to go through all the videos I watched. Time will tell.

no source so discounted.
my original point still stands.

The point is that it has more collective good things than the LOTR franchise does. The LOTR franchise, despite individual preferences, only really achieved mainstream success with the LOTR books, LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit. Everything else is either a failure, largely forgotten or only appeals to the absolute most dedicated members of the fan base. Star Wars has more collective properties that have achieved success.

the thing is most of LotR "failures" are still better then many of Sarwars successes(the first 2 hobbit movies that you think are so bad both score higher then your "success" of ep 3) and if we are talking about how much has been forgotten then I suppose starwars wins something....

Really? Name one LOTR game with the success and following that KOTOR has.

battle for middle earth. it hasn't been remade or rereleased in almost 15 years (or even available at all in over 10) and it still has a massive following with fans even recreating the game from scratch to make it more accessible.

Don't get me wrong, I like LOTR, but it simply does not objectively compare to Star Wars in terms of:

• size of the fan base

• because bigger is always better?

• financial success of the franchise

  the transformer movies made a lot of money to does that make them a good thing? something making money is not a mark of quality.

Most of the things we are discussing are subjective, the above is not. LOTR, although greatly successful, has never hit the heights that Star Wars has. Star Wars is everywhere. It is more deeply permeated into society than any other franchise. Star Trek, LOTR, Harry Potter and others simply can't match its reach. Marvel might be the one exception... time will tell.

no it just became the foundation of an entire genre of fiction...

Even our beloved Lustria Online serves as an excellent microcosm. There is FAR more Star Wars content on here than LOTR. There is almost as much Star Wars content as there is Warhammer/AoS content . So either there are more Star Wars fans or the ones that do exist are more devoted.... or both!

Also

we are not arguing size, anything can be popular just look at K-pop, twitter, or MLP. we are arguing quality which is better. is it better to have a very brod swath of content with some gems among the mire? or is it better to have comparably little content of much higher quality? this is where we differ on this.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

there is a very big difference between nitpicking and fundamentally flawed. there are plot holes in the 3rd movie that you could drive pod racers thru

Plots holes... one word... EAGLES.

LOTR fans may try to explain it away, but there it is. The whole trilogy could have been over real fast. I know there are a bunch of theories thrown out there to explain why it wasn't a viable plan... but that is just a band aid.

no source so discounted.
my original point still stands.

It's a rumor. Research it if you like. Take it or leave it, I am in no way presenting it as if written in stone. Time will tell.

For the record, I'm hoping that Bezos does not get his greedy little hands on the the LOTR franchise.

the thing is most of LotR "failures" are still better then many of Sarwars successes(the first 2 hobbit movies that you think are so bad both score higher then your "success" of ep 3) and if we are talking about how much has been forgotten then I suppose starwars wins something....

I fully admit that Star Wars has more bad stuff. It also has more stuff in general, all branching out from the main George Lucas movies. Of course there will be more bad stuff. But also more good stuff. I made a list in my original post and Star Wars easily comes out on top.

LOTR stuff revolves around the retelling of the same two stories (LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit), we'll see how the franchise fares when it deviates from its core. Luckily, we don't have to wait to long, in September we'll see. We'll see if the Amazon series can match the branching out stories of SW like the Thrawn trilogy and the Bane Trilogy.

As far as scores go, on Rotten Tomatoes the OT audience rating (96%, 97%, 94%) beats out the LOTR trilogy (95%, 95%, 86%). The Hobbit loses to the Clone Wars cartoon, Rogue One and The Mandalorian. And it gets worse, Star Wars' greatest movie failure (imho), The Rise of Skywalker, also scores higher than any of the Hobbit movies.

Also, if we're going to start dropping numbers, you know I'm eventually going to start throwing down box office numbers, and LOTR loses to Star Wars.
Adjusted for inflation:
https://www.gamesradar.com/highest-grossing-movies-inflation/

Or adjusted ticket price inflation:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/chart/top_lifetime_gross_adjusted/?adjust_gross_to=2019

So according to the numbers, Star Wars comes out on top in terms of Audience Score and Box Office success!

because bigger is always better?

Why do you set me up like that?

Having a larger fan base is better. The franchise has entertained more people! More people like it! If you set out to write a book or direct a movie, wouldn't you want more people to like your work than less?

the transformer movies made a lot of money to does that make them a good thing? something making money is not a mark of quality.

The Transformers movies made money based on the success and nostalgia of the original series. It is is a testament to the original series. I should know, I watched just about every Transformers movie (except for the latest ones) in the theater and hated them all. Nostalgia is a powerful thing.

no it just became the foundation of an entire genre of fiction...

Fantasy stories existed long before LOTR. The mythological stories that form the foundation of fantasy were around for thousands of years before LOTR. LOTR did help popularize it, but it doesn't form the foundation. Star Wars popularized the action Sci-fi action film scene in very much the same way, but it too isn't the foundation upon which the genre is built.

is it better to have a very brod swath of content with some gems among the mire? or is it better to have comparably little content of much higher quality?

I would say it is more important to have more good content overall, regardless of bad content. I'd rather take 20 shots on net and score on 9 of them, than have 5 shots on net and score on 4 of them. The one scoring 4 out 5 can claim a better shooting percentage (80% vs. 45%), but the other still wins the game 9-4.

 

[Just A Skink]

Ha ha ha! We nerds and geeks do love to debate about our fandom.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Ha ha ha! We nerds and geeks do love to debate about our fandom.

Indeed.

 

[Killer Angel]

animated hobbit move bud. the one from 77 not the hobbit trilogy.

do you mean this one?

that was a mixed bag, but i wouldn't call it good. And i dare to say it's not known by a wide audience.

still better than this:

 

[Scalenex]

@NIGHTBRINGER That was a really really long explanation for why Star Wars is better LOTR. To paraphrase Shakespeare, I believe you doth protest too much.

I believe LOTR and Star Wars are too fundamentally different to judge by the same merits.

That being said, you are posting on a forum based around an army based on a game-line whose setting is ultimately base on Tolkien's work.

But anyway, we shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves on who is best. This thread was created to complain! And talk about how movies and shows aren't as good as they used to be.

Special effects-wise, everything is pretty much the spiritual successor to Star Wars.

Special effects wise, Avatar created a lot of amazing new visual technology which is being used in most subsequent big budget block buster movies. Avatar has very little cultural impact. No one remembers any quotable moments, you don't see a lot of Avatar memes, it didn't outright kill anyone's career but it didn't launch anyone to stardom either.

But special effects and storytelling are two different things.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

That being said, you are posting on a forum based around an army based on a game-line whose setting is ultimately base on Tolkien's work.

And yet Star Wars content is probably one hundredfold more prevalent on the forum than LOTR content.

But special effects and storytelling are two different things.

I am well aware, but it is still a major feather in its cap. And Star Wars is not Avatar, SW's influence permeates much more deeply.

But anyway, we shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves on who is best.

It is a fun contest. The juggernaut of fantasy vs. the juggernaut of sci-fi.

 

[Scalenex]

And yet Star Wars content is probably one hundredfold more prevalent on the forum than LOTR content.

If Gargoyles came out in 2004 instead of 1994 I would have a bunch of awesome GIFs and memes to throw out at various points. Jonathan Frakes (Xanatos) and Keith David (Goliath) alone had some great lines, but I cannot quote them with friends because no one I know is half the Gargoyles fan that I am.

David Xanatos: Soon everyone in New York will be hunting gargoyles.

Goliath: Because of you!

David Xanatos: If you're going to be picky, we won't get anywhere.

That's so meme-able. Just change the first line to "And yet Star Wars content is probably one hundredfold more prevalent on the forum than LOTR content."