AoS Let's talk about Dracothion's Tail in 3.0

[Tav]

i think stegadons are a mistake. when people talk thunder lizard they always have stegadons in their which i think is a waste for those exact reasons.
they a slow, have a 4+ save and only have rend 1.

Dracothians tail is, to be honest, using salamanders efficiency in cost to get the job done and falls down to high pressure as it always has without copious screens. Dracos tail list tend to want to play the long game and pick out a target to send sallies out at.

Im all for the bastiladon thunder lizards. just 1 bastiladon with the right support can be one of the best points scoring units in the game. A hard to kill monster that has good, long range shooting damage.

Also nerfs the monster meta by reducing damage by 1. So far i think these things make a well crafted thunder lizard a better option to get high scoring wins than a starborne list

 

[PJetski]

Sadly, I don't have the models for a good TL list, I got one Carno, one Steg, one Basti, one Dread Saurian. So I am left with my favorite KC lists, Carno, MSU of knights, priest, starpriest, Kroak/Slann, few screens of skinks and a few endless spells.

I am looking to branch out into the mentioned DT list in the first few posts, or the one posted later, as I find that my win rate is struggling. Now, if I am reading summoning correct, on average we are getting a salamander every 2 turns, so it is not that good in my eyes or am I missing something? In my local meta, I run into Hearthguards, Blood Stalkers, Gargants (Kragnos), hero based Gravelords, and standard pink horror Tzeentch. Safe to say, my KC loses often, and I'd like to test DT.

The issue I'm seeing is that two salamanders, a few spells, and one teleport is quite the cost to pay for the better damage my usual lists do, though I admit I know nothing of the Starborne playstyle so I am assuming I'm missing many tricks, and that I'm simply oblivious to the benefits of such a style. Also, I am 100% sure I'll fail many games 'til I learn how to play such lists.

I guess my question is this: Are 2 salamanders, 2 razordons, some Kroak spells, maybe a lucky EotG proc enough to win games?

If you just look at the hero and shooting phase then no probably not, but if you also consider the shooting you can do in the charge phase (both yours and your opponents) and the melee damage done by razordons, salamanders, and the EOTG it starts to add up.
Is it enough to "win games"? I'm not sure yet, that will require significant testing. You're probably not going to be wiping your opponent off the board, but with summoning and teleporting you will own the board, which is a lot more valuable for scoring the primary objectives and Battle Tactics.

i think stegadons are a mistake. when people talk thunder lizard they always have stegadons in their which i think is a waste for those exact reasons.
they a slow, have a 4+ save and only have rend 1.

Dracothians tail is, to be honest, using salamanders efficiency in cost to get the job done and falls down to high pressure as it always has without copious screens. Dracos tail list tend to want to play the long game and pick out a target to send sallies out at.

Im all for the bastiladon thunder lizards. just 1 bastiladon with the right support can be one of the best points scoring units in the game. A hard to kill monster that has good, long range shooting damage.

Also nerfs the monster meta by reducing damage by 1. So far i think these things make a well crafted thunder lizard a better option to get high scoring wins than a starborne list

I agree about regular Stegadons, they cost too many points and have too high of an opportunity cost when you account for all the support buffs they require. A Stegadon Chief in Thunder Lizard can do an absurd amount of damage. My TL list has EOTG + Bastiladon + Stegadon Chief + Salamanders and it works really well so far.

 

[Tav]

If you just look at the hero and shooting phase then no probably not, but if you also consider the shooting you can do in the charge phase (both yours and your opponents) and the melee damage done by razordons, salamanders, and the EOTG it starts to add up.
Is it enough to "win games"? I'm not sure yet, that will require significant testing. You're probably not going to be wiping your opponent off the board, but with summoning and teleporting you will own the board, which is a lot more valuable for scoring the primary objectives and Battle Tactics.


I agree about regular Stegadons, they cost too many points and have too high of an opportunity cost when you account for all the support buffs they require. A Stegadon Chief in Thunder Lizard can do an absurd amount of damage. My TL list has EOTG + Bastiladon + Stegadon Chief + Salamanders and it works really well so far.

See ive gone for less monster heavy, just bastiladon and a carnosaur which allows for a good number of screens and full cast of support heroes to max out the potential of the monsters i do have

 

[Putzfrau]

Here's my first draft of a DT list using Kroak and double Warlord battalion

Warlord #1

• Kroak
• Starseer - Command Trait: Master of Magic (Re-roll 1 cast/unbind/dispel per hero phase), Bind Endless Spell
• Astrolith Bearer -Godbeast Pendant (Revive on 4+)
• 10x Skinks

Warlord #2

• Engine of the Gods - Amulet of Destiny (5+ ward)
• Skink Priest - Arcane Tome (Hand of Glory), Curse
• Skink Starpriest - Tide of Serpents
• 10x Skinks

Hunters of the Heartland

• 2x Razordons
• 2x Salamanders
• 10x Skinks

Misc.

• Shackles
• Geminids
• Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery (keep a WIZARD alive)
• Triumph: Inspired
• Extra Command Points: 2

2000/2000

Razordons are much better than they were in 2nd ed, and they're a steal at 190 for 2. With Skinks falling out of favour we need new units to soak up with all our great SKINK buffs. You can give them run/shoot/charge, +1 save, +1 hit, reroll hit1, and the Serpent Staff. Offensively you can shoot for 4d6, then charge (3d6" with Starseer nearby) in for another 2d6, then have really good melee attacks. Defensively they have their own Overwatch and Unleash Hell - all the buffs you give them last through enemy turns so these shots can be quite potent.

With Geminids shutting down All Out Defense, and Starseer casting Control Fate you can tear through large single targets with focused fire, and summon more Salamanders as the game goes along.

Shackles with +6" setup range is tremendous.

I want to run a Lifeswarm but Kroak doesn't really make any use of it and there is still some healing with the Engine and Heroic Recovery.

I am concerned about running Kroak without Guard on the table (though they can be summoned in). With good positioning I can deploy him far back to outrange Lumineth and KO deep strike shooting, but Stormcast teleport/scions would be a problem. Finest Hour + All Out Defense and a 6+ ward (Astrolith) could be enough to keep him alive through that first turn.

I'm running Bind Endless Spell because there seems to be a lot of spells worth stealing right now.


If Mystical Unforging is cast on a HERO with an Amulet of Destiny, do you break the artefact before or after you deal D3 mortal wounds? Based on the wording, I think it's before.

I personally wouldn't play endless spells as getting the range increase. 19.3 makes it pretty clear endless spells can't be affected by abilities and I think that stretches to the spell that summons them as well, especially considering the context of the older faq and that it's a single warscroll.

If you and your opponent both read it as being able to get the range extended, by all means. But I wouldn't just spring that on someone and I certainly wouldn't play it that way in a tournament without getting a prior ruling from a judge.

It also just straight up breaks a lot of spells, like shackles as you mentioned.

To be on topic, I've been using dracos tail extensively and haven't been using kroak. I think miscast and his wound ability makes him a liability and let's you go leaner with the regular slann for more bodies. I think it just requires a certain amount of finesse because there's a lot that can go wrong and it's still relatively fragile.

 

[Lambs and Lions]

So I was watching the honest Wargamer's latest tournament reaction and he had mentioned that Seraphon took 2nd or 3rd in three different tournaments where one was fangs, one was DT and one was TL. The point being that all three of the sub factions seem viable and able to do well at major tournaments. I really don't think one is so much stronger than the other, unlike last edition where fangs was just better than the others.

 

[Tilorn91]

In regards to Endless Spells and our Astrolith Bearer, I play them as having added range for two reasons. One is, there is nothing saying it is not legal, the 19.3 part of the rules states "an endless spell cannot be attacked or be affected by abilities." which is vague and can be interpreted both ways honestly. The other reason is that, unlike in 2.0, 3.0 warscrolls for endless spells all use different wording for where they are put. Once you beat the cast value, you no longer place them within a range (as in 2.0 where the added range wouldn't work since it is not a cast range, but a placing range, plus it was directly answered later on) instead every single warscroll has the wording within the range of x". To me, it is clear, though I still clear this up with every opponent I play versus, or a judge at a local tourney (I'm small fish, nothing larger than a gaming club thing).

Now, on to other things. I feel like trying out a list like this in my next weeks match versus Gravelords, on a scenario The Vice. I usually run KC lists, where I feel I'd be really pinned back all the time to prevent mass skeletons popping from graveyards, or knights ambushing, or flyers descending onto my points. While Scaly Skin is really good versus all the characters Gravelords has to offer, and the reduction of damage versus mentioned Knights is good, I feel that the threat of a teleport or two would go a long way in securing my board presence on a scenario like The Vice.

Any tips versus a hero heavy list from Gravelords on such a map? Using the list posted first?

EDIT: I'm fairly certain my opponent will run Neferata, Vhordrai, Coven Throne, some dogs, a unit of knights, a unit or two of Vargheists, and who some other random stuff.

 

[Tyranitar]

Im playing in a 6 round tts event with my thunder lizards, 2-0 so far and we will see how we go

Unrelated to this thread but do you have the list available somewhere?

 

[PJetski]

Endless Spells cant be effected by abilities but that only applies once they are on the table. The core rules state that the spell to summon them is a normal spell for all intents and purposes. Since the summoning spells list a Range in their description, effects that boost casting range will work on them. I dont think there is any ambiguity here.

 

[Tav]

I personally wouldn't play endless spells as getting the range increase. 19.3 makes it pretty clear endless spells can't be affected by abilities and I think that stretches to the spell that summons them as well, especially considering the context of the older faq and that it's a single warscroll.

If you and your opponent both read it as being able to get the range extended, by all means. But I wouldn't just spring that on someone and I certainly wouldn't play it that way in a tournament without getting a prior ruling from a judge.

It also just straight up breaks a lot of spells, like shackles as you mentioned.

To be on topic, I've been using dracos tail extensively and haven't been using kroak. I think miscast and his wound ability makes him a liability and let's you go leaner with the regular slann for more bodies. I think it just requires a certain amount of finesse because there's a lot that can go wrong and it's still relatively fragile.

Older faqs are completely ignored, the endless spell is the model itself and they each have a spell on the warscroll to summon then.
Being a spell it can therefore be affected by things such as range increase

 

[Tav]

Unrelated to this thread but do you have the list available somewhere?

You can find it on tabletop.to, release the beast event.

but the list is this

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (265)**
- General
- Command Trait: Arcane Might
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)**
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)**
- War Spear
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Skink Priest (80)***
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal
Skink Starpriest (130)***
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)***
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
- Spell: Bind Endless Spell

Battleline
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances

Units
2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)*
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (80)

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord
***Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Artefact

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
Drops: 12

 

[PabloTho]

You can find it on tabletop.to, release the beast event.

but the list is this

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (265)**
- General
- Command Trait: Arcane Might
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)**
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)**
- War Spear
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Skink Priest (80)***
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal
Skink Starpriest (130)***
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)***
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
- Spell: Bind Endless Spell

Battleline
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances

Units
2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)*
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (80)

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord
***Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Artefact

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
Drops: 12

Out of curiosity, why did you choose Rectrices as an artifact for your Seer? Might Ixti Tendies on your Slann be a better option for some more insurance on miscast, failed unbinds etc.?

 

[Putzfrau]

Older faqs are completely ignored, the endless spell is the model itself and they each have a spell on the warscroll to summon then.
Being a spell it can therefore be affected by things such as range increase

Then it can also be cast through spell portal. And I think "endless spells can't be affected by abilities" is ambiguous enough to refer to both the spell and the entity. But can definitely see it both ways, which is why I hope it's faq'd.

In the mean time, it's just not an interaction I'd feel comfortable using at the table and definitely one I'd get clarity on for a tournament. I understand old faqs are gone.

 

[PJetski]

Then it can also be cast through spell portal. And I think "endless spells can't be affected by abilities" is ambiguous enough to refer to both the spell and the entity. But can definitely see it both ways, which is why I hope it's faq'd.

In the mean time, it's just not an interaction I'd feel comfortable using at the table and definitely one I'd get clarity on for a tournament. I understand old faqs are gone.

No, you still have to set them up within range of the caster. Unfortunately you can't use vassal casting or a spell portal to summon endless spells further away than the setup range, since those abilities just allow you to measure distance and visibility from another point but don't change the location of the caster.

The spell to summon an endless spell is not the endless spell model. Abilities that increase casting range do not effect the endless spell, they effect the WIZARD using the spell to summon the model. As per the sidebar in section 19, "The spell used to summon an endless spell is still a spell for rules purposes". Since it lists a range characteristic in the summoning spell, and since the summoning spell is a spell for rules purposes, the range is increased.

 

[Putzfrau]

No, you still have to set them up within range of the caster. Unfortunately you can't use vassal casting or a spell portal to summon endless spells further away than the setup range, since those abilities just allow you to measure distance and visibility from another point but don't change the location of the caster.

The spell to summon an endless spell is not the endless spell model. Abilities that increase casting range do not effect the endless spell, they effect the WIZARD using the spell to summon the model. As per the sidebar in section 19, "The spell used to summon an endless spell is still a spell for rules purposes". Since it lists a range characteristic in the summoning spell, and since the summoning spell is a spell for rules purposes, the range is increased.

"Range, visibility, and effects can be measured to the endless spell not the caster." I mean, i can definitely see what you're saying, but it's about as clear as mud. And that would be why for the time being i'm not using the range extension. That's so ridiculously complicated and unintuitive it's ripe for NPE. There's also the added layer of GW going out of their way to qualify some abilities that reference "spell" as not impacting endless spells.

I'm not trying trying to start an argument. I'm just saying I think it's a pretty gray area from a raw standpoint, and grayer if you try to take intent into account. If both players are cool with it, that's all that matters. But it's certainly not something i'd just spring at someone on the table or plan on using in a tournament without previous clarification. Just my opinion/how i'm going to play the game.

You can find it on tabletop.to, release the beast event.

but the list is this

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (265)**
- General
- Command Trait: Arcane Might
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)**
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)**
- War Spear
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Skink Priest (80)***
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal
Skink Starpriest (130)***
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)***
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
- Spell: Bind Endless Spell

Battleline
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances

Units
2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)*
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (80)

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord
***Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Artefact

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
Drops: 12

Was literally thinking of bringing this exact list to an upcoming tournament. You're enjoying it, it sounds like?

 

[Tav]

Out of curiosity, why did you choose Rectrices as an artifact for your Seer? Might Ixti Tendies on your Slann be a better option for some more insurance on miscast, failed unbinds etc.?

Got reroll from the trait and i want the starseer to have a chance at life, it offers a choice for my opponent rather than it being taken out and having a decent knock on effect on the army

 

[VikingRage]

I personally wouldn't play endless spells as getting the range increase. 19.3 makes it pretty clear endless spells can't be affected by abilities and I think that stretches to the spell that summons them as well, especially considering the context of the older faq and that it's a single warscroll.

If you and your opponent both read it as being able to get the range extended, by all means. But I wouldn't just spring that on someone and I certainly wouldn't play it that way in a tournament without getting a prior ruling from a judge.

It also just straight up breaks a lot of spells, like shackles as you mentioned.

To be on topic, I've been using dracos tail extensively and haven't been using kroak. I think miscast and his wound ability makes him a liability and let's you go leaner with the regular slann for more bodies. I think it just requires a certain amount of finesse because there's a lot that can go wrong and it's still relatively fragile.

I will start off by saying that I am having trouble fitting Kroak into my list for numerous reasons (points, death mechanic, realmshaper limits).

That said, I don't think he is that vulnerable to miscasts IF you get even one reroll on him for casts each hero phase. I am still wishing I owned a vanilla slann, or at least an old model of Kroak that I can proxy in, though...

 

[Jason839]

Eh I dont fear or respect the miscast. It will happen and it sucks when it does but something we all had to learn in WHFB is that the opportunity cost of a miscast is less than the benefit you gain from having that wizard on the table. And this was back when WHFB would kill your wizard and straight up summon a demon to eat you.

I kinda feel the same about kroaks wound mechanic. It will happen and it will suck, but its a dice roll. Play well, dont throw him out to die, and he will do far more good on the table than his chances to die or miscast. Especially in DT where he is a big damage source to support salamanders and aid in summoning more.

I dont sweat it. I just keep doing my thing and if it happens it happens.

 

[VikingRage]

Eh I dont fear or respect the miscast. It will happen and it sucks when it does but something we all had to learn in WHFB is that the opportunity cost of a miscast is less than the benefit you gain from having that wizard on the table. And this was back when WHFB would kill your wizard and straight up summon a demon to eat you.

I kinda feel the same about kroaks wound mechanic. It will happen and it will suck, but its a dice roll. Play well, dont throw him out to die, and he will do far more good on the table than his chances to die or miscast. Especially in DT where he is a big damage source to support salamanders and aid in summoning more.

I dont sweat it. I just keep doing my thing and if it happens it happens.

Haha, well said!

 

[Tyranitar]

You can find it on tabletop.to, release the beast event.

but the list is this

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Thunder Lizard
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Slann Starmaster (265)**
- General
- Command Trait: Arcane Might
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)**
- Artefact: Fusil of Conflaguration
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)**
- War Spear
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Skink Priest (80)***
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal
Skink Starpriest (130)***
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Skink Starseer (145)***
- Artefact: Incandescent Rectrices
- Spell: Bind Endless Spell

Battleline
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
5 x Saurus Knights (110)***
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110)*
- Lances

Units
2 x Salamander Hunting Pack (240)*
- Reinforced x 1

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (80)

Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord
***Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Artefact

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
Drops: 12

How's it progressing? Have you played vs tzeentch archaon yet?

 

[Tav]

How's it progressing? Have you played vs tzeentch archaon yet?

i have, i lost the game but it was winnable. went after him with sallies and bastiladon when archon has lost buffs, the bastiladon alone got about 6 wounds rolls through and archaon made all 6 4+ saves.
happens in a dice game but that pretty much put me on a losing path in the game