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AoS New Kroak - Arcane Vassal & Celestial Deliverance Interaction

gliiip said:
But we still have it in the codex and there is nothing written about wound 9 or more. So if I take it according to the codex, there is nothing stopping us from using it.
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new rules override old rules and again "it's not in the game any more" 3rd squated it. you can still use it if you get your opponent to play 2nd with you but our 2nd book is out of date.
 
Erta Wanderer said:
new rules override old rules and again "it's not in the game any more" 3rd squated it. you can still use it if you get your opponent to play 2nd with you but our 2nd book is out of date.
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If only there was a medium GW could use to provide books they could easily edit and update to prevent things like this :rolleyes:
 
new rules override old rules and again "it's not in the game any more" 3rd squated it. you can still use it if you get your opponent to play 2nd with you but our 2nd book is out of date.

and where exactly is it written, pls?
 
new rules override old rules and again "it's not in the game any more" 3rd squated it. you can still use it if you get your opponent to play 2nd with you but our 2nd book is out of date.
Click to expand...

And where exactly is it written,pls?
 
ok, but in seraphon battletome it is a spell written with points and in GHB it is written:

"The endless spells in this section are far from being the only endless spells that are available.
There are many endless spells that are summonable only by wizards of a certain faction, such
as the Lumineth Realm-lords’ Rune of Petrification or Mork’s Mighty Mushroom of Gloomspite
Gitz. The endless spell warscrolls for such endless spells are found in the battletome of the faction
that can summon them.“

So in my opinion Bond Balewind Vortex is still playable for Seraphon players, but is no longer playable for others.
Which makes Balewind Vortex a spell exclusively for Seraphon wizards.
 
gliiip said:
ok, but in seraphon battletome it is a spell written with points and in GHB it is written:

"The endless spells in this section are far from being the only endless spells that are available.
There are many endless spells that are summonable only by wizards of a certain faction, such
as the Lumineth Realm-lords’ Rune of Petrification or Mork’s Mighty Mushroom of Gloomspite
Gitz. The endless spell warscrolls for such endless spells are found in the battletome of the faction
that can summon them.“

So in my opinion Bond Balewind Vortex is still playable for Seraphon players, but is no longer playable for others.
Which makes Balewind Vortex a spell exclusively for Seraphon wizards.
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You use the newest relevant book, which in this case is the GHB 2021. The bound spells do not even exist anymore for seraphon. If you’re hung up on the book thing, the 3rd edition Seraphon faq makes this clear that you no longer use bound spell warscrolls.
 
The last faq to our battletome says only the following:

"Change the header to ‘Spell Lores and Bonded Endless Spells’ and the rules under the header to:
Endless spells summoned by Seraphon Wizards are bonded to the model that summoned them. A bonded endless spell is always controlled by the model to which it is bonded. A model cannot be bonded to more than one endless spell at the same time and cannot attempt to summon other endless spells while it is bonded. If the model that summoned the endless spell is removed from play, then the endless spell is removed from play."

So even according to GHB we still have access to all endless spells if they have endless spell warscrolls in our battletome.
There is not a word anywhere that we cannot use this spell. On the contrary, depending on what is written in the GHB, we can use this spell, as well as any other faction that has this spell written in the battletome.

"The endless spells in this section are far from being the only endless spells that are available.
There are many endless spells that are summonable only by wizards of a certain faction..."
"...The endless spell warscrolls for such endless spells are found in the battletome of the faction
that can summon them."
- this is from GHB 2021


 
gliiip said:
The last faq to our battletome says only the following:

"Change the header to ‘Spell Lores and Bonded Endless Spells’ and the rules under the header to:
Endless spells summoned by Seraphon Wizards are bonded to the model that summoned them. A bonded endless spell is always controlled by the model to which it is bonded. A model cannot be bonded to more than one endless spell at the same time and cannot attempt to summon other endless spells while it is bonded. If the model that summoned the endless spell is removed from play, then the endless spell is removed from play."

So even according to GHB we still have access to all endless spells if they have endless spell warscrolls in our battletome.
There is not a word anywhere that we cannot use this spell. On the contrary, depending on what is written in the GHB, we can use this spell, as well as any other faction that has this spell written in the battletome.

"The endless spells in this section are far from being the only endless spells that are available.
There are many endless spells that are summonable only by wizards of a certain faction..."
"...The endless spell warscrolls for such endless spells are found in the battletome of the faction
that can summon them."
- this is from GHB 2021
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ok bud you win. it's totally ok to bring it. but let me ask why isn't it available in any of the army builders? why is the bale wind no longer purchasable from any official source? how much does it cost to take it? why does EVERYONE disagree with you?
also all of those endless spells from other books have both a rewright and new points now bale wind does not. in fact NONE of our books bound spells do
 
gliiip said:
The last faq to our battletome says only the following:

"Change the header to ‘Spell Lores and Bonded Endless Spells’ and the rules under the header to:
Endless spells summoned by Seraphon Wizards are bonded to the model that summoned them. A bonded endless spell is always controlled by the model to which it is bonded. A model cannot be bonded to more than one endless spell at the same time and cannot attempt to summon other endless spells while it is bonded. If the model that summoned the endless spell is removed from play, then the endless spell is removed from play."

So even according to GHB we still have access to all endless spells if they have endless spell warscrolls in our battletome.
There is not a word anywhere that we cannot use this spell. On the contrary, depending on what is written in the GHB, we can use this spell, as well as any other faction that has this spell written in the battletome.

"The endless spells in this section are far from being the only endless spells that are available.
There are many endless spells that are summonable only by wizards of a certain faction..."
"...The endless spell warscrolls for such endless spells are found in the battletome of the faction
that can summon them."
- this is from GHB 2021
Click to expand...
My cousin and best friend work at the gw store I go to and they regularly officiate at the tournaments there.
Here's a quote from sam(cousin) they gave to me when 3.0 dropped.
"Balewind will no longer be allowed. They are scuttling that train wreck of a ship. I am upset I won't be able to use it when I get time to play in tournaments but it is for the best."
This is Andrew's(best friend) statement. "They're finally getting rid of balewind. They reworked kroak. You get to still use your big fucking hunk of resin and I no longer have to listen to people bitch about seraphon for a little bit. Life is good today"
Seriously dude you are literally the only person who doesn't accept that balewind isn't allowed anymore.
Try going to an official tournament and bring balewind see how quickly they will tell you it isn't allowed anymore.
 
I think @gliiip has presented a valid argument here and it's entirely GW's fault for their sloppy "watertight" rules writing. Maybe it will get cleaned up in the upcoming faq, maybe it won't. But tbh, the only reason to ever take it was as a range extender and extra spell for kroak, and now he can't sit on it anyway and cogs is better as a bonus spell factory so I don't think I'd take it even if it is still an option.

Maybe you should submit a faq just to clear it up. "Can Seraphon still take the bound balewind vortex from their battletome?"
 
Tyranitar said:
I think @gliiip has presented a valid argument here and it's entirely GW's fault for their sloppy "watertight" rules writing. Maybe it will get cleaned up in the upcoming faq, maybe it won't. But tbh, the only reason to ever take it was as a range extender and extra spell for kroak, and now he can't sit on it anyway and cogs is better as a bonus spell factory so I don't think I'd take it even if it is still an option.

Maybe you should submit a faq just to clear it up. "Can Seraphon still take the bound balewind vortex from their battletome?"
Click to expand...
how would we? it has no point cost. is is free?
 
Tyranitar said:
I guess the points in our battletome, which is 50 iirc. Not sure cause I always used the normal version
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except none of the points in our book are valid anymore. thats the whole problem the GHB doesn't list the bale wind in our section. every other faction endless spell is in their section with both new warscroll and points. not the bale wind
 
Erta Wanderer said:
except none of the points in our book are valid anymore. thats the whole problem the GHB doesn't list the bale wind in our section. every other faction endless spell is in their section with both new warscroll and points. not the bale wind
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Yeah I agree with you that the intent is for it to not exist. I'm just saying there's room for an argument because instead of GW clearly stating something along the lines of "other than future battletomes which override the following tables, only models presented in the GHB 2021 pitched battle profiles may be used in matched play," they said something about battletomes having endless spells that they can summon that are not present in the GHB 2021, which creates room for the argument that because bound balewind is in our battletome and has a point cost listed there, it can be used.

Again, I'm on the side that it doesn't actually exist and I won't use it because of that (not that I would anyway since kroak wouldn't be able to use it even if it did exist), but I can see the argument that gliiip is making. Silly loopholes are only an issue because they aren't clear with the way they write and present rules unfortunately
 
Tyranitar said:
Yeah I agree with you that the intent is for it to not exist. I'm just saying there's room for an argument because instead of GW clearly stating something along the lines of "other than future battletomes which override the following tables, only models presented in the GHB 2021 pitched battle profiles may be used in matched play," they said something about battletomes having endless spells that they can summon that are not present in the GHB 2021, which creates room for the argument that because bound balewind is in our battletome and has a point cost listed there, it can be used.

Again, I'm on the side that it doesn't actually exist and I won't use it because of that (not that I would anyway since kroak wouldn't be able to use it even if it did exist), but I can see the argument that gliiip is making. Silly loopholes are only an issue because they aren't clear with the way they write and present rules unfortunately
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I guess the issue is that they simply can't do make actually clear and precise statements due to the staggered updates.

If they simply say "anything not in the current GHB is invalid" then new tomes that release during 3.0 with new pointcosts are invalid.
If they simply say "Tomes may have additional units that aren't listed in the GHB" then the balewind can be argued is still valid.

Either way, it creates a mess.

Honestly what it boils down to is just that the staggered releases, without a central repository of all currently valid rules, just creates a giant mess.

To be honest, I don't get why they don't just maintain a basic wiki with all valid warscrolls and corresponding pointcosts. The warscrolls are availlable for free anyway on the shop; so why not just organize it more nicely into a wiki/database and add in the pointcosts. Makes things a whole lot easier for everyone involved. And they're already hosting all warscrolls anyway, so it's not like they need to set up a new server infrastructure for it. It's literally just a matter of creating a page with a table of all warscrolls and their pointcosts. Just have an intern code that over a few days and be done with it.
 
Tyranitar said:
Yeah I agree with you that the intent is for it to not exist. I'm just saying there's room for an argument because instead of GW clearly stating something along the lines of "other than future battletomes which override the following tables, only models presented in the GHB 2021 pitched battle profiles may be used in matched play," they said something about battletomes having endless spells that they can summon that are not present in the GHB 2021, which creates room for the argument that because bound balewind is in our battletome and has a point cost listed there, it can be used.

Again, I'm on the side that it doesn't actually exist and I won't use it because of that (not that I would anyway since kroak wouldn't be able to use it even if it did exist), but I can see the argument that gliiip is making. Silly loopholes are only an issue because they aren't clear with the way they write and present rules unfortunately
Click to expand...

And because people blatantly try their hardest to circumvent issues that are solved by applying just a little bit of common sense.

Its always easier to break something than to build it.
 
Canas said:
I guess the issue is that they simply can't do make actually clear and precise statements due to the staggered updates.
Click to expand...

And I think, that guys at GW simply couldn't think of anyone doubting that old rules and scrolls on bound endless spells are outdated after all updates.
 
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