AoS Warhammer Weekly: Seraphon OP?

[Lizerd]

IMHO, vince is coming across less as someone with proper criticism and more along the lines of someone who didnt prep for a match and got hard punished as a result. Yes, Kroak is powerful, but as people have mentioned before, if you want to get the most out of him you're going to be putting alot into him (a saurus guard unit, a balewind vortex, and an astrolith bearer). Nerfing his base cost would be a kick in the teeth. Skinks, I can somewhat see his point, but its also important to remember that if they go unsupported they're hot garbage. Finally saurus, while they do have durability issues, in coalesced temple guard and knights are fairly resilient, but still could use more.

Honestly i wouldnt worry about him too much, just cross our fingers and hope we dont get stomped by the FAQs this winter

 

[Tyranitar]

That's how I've always viewed it, Kroak's base scroll isn't that impressive. For him to do what he's known for you're investing 670~ points into him, which is in line with other "god" pieces. People tend to not see it that way, they just see what he does, then see his point cost of 320, and that's it. There is the argument that over the course of a game he'll earn his points back from CP generation alone, but to that I'd say that CP are worth fewer points in our faction because our book is written under the assumption that we will generate additional CP, which is why our scrolls are generally mediocre, other than a few outliers.

All that being said, Kroak is slightly undercosted, otherwise you would see more lists with a generic slann other than DT which tends to run both. There's simply no reason to take a starmaster when you get so much more for only 60 points. Skinks are also very good for their points, they should likely be 70/280 and I'd be surprised if that doesn't happen in the faq. If the skink heroes go up by 10-20 in addition to skinks going up 10, that will be rough...

And as others have mentioned, there's plenty of things that should go down. Saurus warriors, saurus foot heroes, troglodon, razordons, and ripperdactyls could all use a decrease imo

 

[Putzfrau]

320 points for a 4 cast wizard that generates up to 3cp on a 4+, has 2 of the best warscroll spells in the game, has at least 14 effective wounds, can extend his range by casting through skinks, and a natural +1 to cast feels pretty impressive compared to the going rate of casters in this game.

Just out of curiosity, what do you find to be an impressive warscroll?

 

[Dread Saurian]

thats a good 3rd of our kits and don't forget all our heroes they are all still resin.

hey now erta don't be like that I'd say our sunblood and our slann(i still love the kroak model) are maybe out of date as our heroes are concerned but I like the skink starseer, our oracle,, and our old blood and scar vet look lovely

 

[Dread Saurian]

320 points for a 4 cast wizard that generates up to 3cp on a 4+, has 2 of the best warscroll spells in the game, has at least 14 effective wounds, can extend his range by casting through skinks, and a natural +1 to cast feels pretty impressive compared to the going rate of casters in this game.

Just out of curiosity, what do you find to be an impressive warscroll?

Everytime i look at this warscroll im always impressed

 

[Tyranitar]

Perhaps impressive was a poor choice of words. His warscroll is impressive for it's point cost, he's certainly very efficient. What I meant by impressive is it doesn't have a "wow" factor. When I think of impressive warscrolls, I'm thinking Nagash, Katakros, Morathi, Archaon, things like that. I would prefer if Kroak were 600-700 points and his power was self-contained on his warscroll as opposed to obtaining a lot of it through synergies. He just doesn't feel like the being who taught elves magic to me, that's all.

But yeah I agree he is great for his points cost, I'm with you in that he should likely be more in the 380~ range for his current scroll. It's funny, back in my Warhammer Fantasy days Kroak was always 600ish points and terrible, now he's undercosted and too good. GW just hasn't been able to find the sweet spot for our mummified froggy overlord

 

[Lizerd]

320 points for a 4 cast wizard that generates up to 3cp on a 4+, has 2 of the best warscroll spells in the game, has at least 14 effective wounds, can extend his range by casting through skinks, and a natural +1 to cast feels pretty impressive compared to the going rate of casters in this game.

Just out of curiosity, what do you find to be an impressive warscroll?

he has a strong warscroll for sure, but its also important to remember some key things. he still has a brittle 4+, yes it will do decently against low or no rend, it wont keep him alive for long. he does also get the 4+ fnp which for sure helps, but again he only has 7 wounds and has a huge target on his back, and as we all know quite well

HEROES DO NOT HOLD WELL IN AOS

 

[Putzfrau]

Perhaps impressive was a poor choice of words. His warscroll is impressive for it's point cost, he's certainly very efficient. What I meant by impressive is it doesn't have a "wow" factor. When I think of impressive warscrolls, I'm thinking Nagash, Katakros, Morathi, Archaon, things like that. I would prefer if Kroak were 600-700 points and his power was self-contained on his warscroll as opposed to obtaining a lot of it through synergies. He just doesn't feel like the being who taught elves magic to me, that's all.

But yeah I agree he is great for his points cost, I'm with you in that he should likely be more in the 380~ range for his current scroll. It's funny, back in my Warhammer Fantasy days Kroak was always 600ish points and terrible, now he's undercosted and too good. GW just hasn't been able to find the sweet spot for our mummified froggy overlord

Thats totally fair and I completely agree. I would love if they made him a nagash or teclis style model.

 

[xoid]

I would love a new diorama style model with a warscroll to match for the un-alive one.

 

[Dread Saurian]

he has a strong warscroll for sure, but its also important to remember some key things. he still has a brittle 4+, yes it will do decently against low or no rend, it wont keep him alive for long. he does also get the 4+ fnp which for sure helps, but again he only has 7 wounds and has a huge target on his back, and as we all know quite well

HEROES DO NOT HOLD WELL IN AOS

Have you met vorgorath and skalok After they get their ramp up? They are hard enough to kill as is and swarms won't last vs em either

 

[Canas]

All that being said, Kroak is slightly undercosted, otherwise you would see more lists with a generic slann other than DT which tends to run both. There's simply no reason to take a starmaster when you get so much more for only 60 points.

To be honest the issue isn't that Kroak is undercosted compared to a regular slann. The issue is that a generic slann simply doesn't have anything interesting rules unique to him. Kroak is literally capable of doing everything the slann does but better. The only "advantage" a regular slann really holds is being a bit cheaper. So as long as you have the spare points there's simply no reason to ever pick a regular slann instead of Kroak.

As long as Kroak is literally just a better slann a simple point change won't do anything to actually fix him. At most you can nerf him into the ground by simply making him too expensive to use. Which isn't exactly a fix...

 

[Dread Saurian]

To be honest the issue isn't that Kroak is undercosted compared to a regular slann. The issue is that a generic slann simply doesn't have anything interesting rules unique to him. Kroak is literally capable of doing everything the slann does but better. The only "advantage" a regular slann really holds is being a bit cheaper. So as long as you have the spare points there's simply no reason to ever pick a regular slann instead of Kroak.

As long as Kroak is literally just a better slann a simple point change won't do anything to actually fix him. At most you can nerf him into the ground by simply making him too expensive to use. Which isn't exactly a fix...

If you realistically want to find a way to raise kroaks cost give him an absurd special rule that can be utilized by all formations and battalions and squads and well general usage because the lizardmen/seraphon prefer to be flexible and be capable of dominating everyone magically via the fact that they have been intertwined with the winds of magic longer than any other fucking race that isn't chaos. and take away one of his 4 despells and the up to 3 cp generation. Otherwise the best way to utilize kroak is fine currently since you need to invest nearly 700 points into him. Honestly seraphon are fine in terms of balance anyways since they literally can't negate mortal wounds efficiently to begin with.(really intoxicated if I'm incorrect, I won't get offended if ya correct me. This cask of fine sigmar wine is choice)

 

[Dread Saurian]

Have you met vorgorath and skalok After they get their ramp up? They are hard enough to kill as is and swarms won't last vs em either

Hey me have you realized that they're 1200 points? No shit they can hold a point forever they are one of the most killy single models out there.
Bad fucking example big guy.

 

[Grotpunter]

As much as I love watching his show and painting turtorials etc., I just cant take Vince serious on game balance. As an example he never mentions how stupid Fyreslayers are (they are 100% flying under the radar and have been for ages) but it also just so happens to be that his buddy Tom plays Fyreslayers. Coincidence? I dont know, but I just find it kinda hilarious how mad he is about Kroak. He seems incredible biased tbh. and comes across (to me at least) as the kind of "know it all guy". He's always in the right, you know?

It is true that Kroak is super strong and Seraphon (as a book) is also incredible. I just dont see it as this big boogey man anymore. There are certainly stronger books out there.

 

[Nart]

I'd rather see other books get stronger than seraphon nerfed again. Even without Kroak, Skinks and salamanders we have plenty of tricks in our sleeve. Nerf sallies? Meet skinks. Nerf Skinks? Meet Bastiladons. Nerf Bastiladons? Meet Knights.

Our warscrolls are mediocre, but thanks to good synergy, only couple of them are really bad ones (looking at you, ripperdactyls). So, come on, make ghosts and goblins (lol) better, not us worse.

Kroak maybe frustrating, but have you played against Teclis or Morathi? Not that they are unbeatable, but it is not a pleasure to deal with them at all.

 

[Blighboy]

Kroak definitely needs a points increase. If you look at the difference in strength between him and a slann, for 60 points, it's insane. It's not even a contest.

I don't think other than that Seraphon need any major points increases. We rely on our fairly squishy heroes a lot, increasing them all even 10 to 20 points could be crippling. I'd actually sooner see some things go down, though I don't expect it.

 

[Dread Saurian]

Kroak definitely needs a points increase. If you look at the difference in strength between him and a slann, for 60 points, it's insane. It's not even a contest.

I don't think other than that Seraphon need any major points increases. We rely on our fairly squishy heroes a lot, increasing them all even 10 to 20 points could be crippling. I'd actually sooner see some things go down, though I don't expect it.

In order to get him to be even remotely as oppressive as people say he is you need to invest 600 points into him.

 

[Blighboy]

That doesn't really address the core issue of his value though. Every unit in the game gets better with additional support, being able to wombo combo with so many other things is actually a point in his favour.

For 60 points more than a slann you get

-twice as many effective wounds
-33% more casts
-0.5 additional CP per turn
-an extremely powerful unique spell

So either he's way undercosted or a vanilla slann is way overcosted.

 

[Canas]

That doesn't really address the core issue of his value though. Every unit in the game gets better with additional support, being able to wombo combo with so many other things is actually a point in his favour.

For 60 points more than a slann you get

-twice as many effective wounds
-33% more casts
-0.5 additional CP per turn
-an extremely powerful unique spell

So either he's way undercosted or a vanilla slann is way overcosted.

The cost of a slann or Kroak isn't the issue, or at least not the main issue.

The main issue is that the slann doesn't have a single significant advantage when compared to Kroak. Kroak does literally everything the regular slann can do, but better. There's simply no real reason to ever use the regular slann unless you're absolutly desperate to save those points. So just increasing Kroak's points won't achieve anything until you make Kroak so expensive he's unuseable; which isn't exactly a good solution.

If you want to give people a real reason to pick the regular slann then give the slann something Kroak can't do. A unique spell, a special command ability, a mount, whatever. Just give it something to make it stand out.

 

[xoid]

It doesn't help that the two things that a normal slann can do that Kroak can't doesn't seem to be used often, and that has to do with the subfactions, that people almost always take one of the four of. If you do, your first magic item is chosen for you, and none are really worth putting on a slann, and three of the four subfractions have command traits for something other then a slann.